High Dose Niacin and ArA

[Grayson]

I utilize niacin for glycogen depletion workouts (UD2) and was wondering if supplementing ArA would be a problem? The reason I'm asking is because niacin suppresses FFA.

Taken from lyle's forums: niacin increases glucose oxidation during the first 90 minutes post ingestion and then flooding the body with free fatty acids at the 2-3 hour mark.

Thoughts?

 

[Grayson]

Bumping with info:

Niacin lipid efficacy is independent of both the niacin receptor GPR109A and free fatty acid suppression.

Abstract
Nicotinic acid (niacin) induces beneficial changes in serum lipoproteins and has been associated with beneficial cardiovascular effects. Niacin reduces low-density lipoprotein, increases high-density lipoprotein, and decreases triglycerides. It is well established that activation of the seven-transmembrane G(i)-coupled receptor GPR109A on Langerhans cells results in release of prostaglandin D₂, which mediates the well-known flushing side effect of niacin. Niacin activation of GPR109A on adipocytes also mediates the transient reduction of plasma free fatty acid (FFA) levels characteristic of niacin, which has been long hypothesized to be the mechanism underlying the changes in the serum lipid profile. We tested this "FFA hypothesis" and the hypothesis that niacin lipid efficacy is mediated via GPR109A by dosing mice lacking GPR109A with niacin and testing two novel, full GPR109A agonists, MK-1903 and SCH900271, in three human clinical trials. In mice, the absence of GPR109A had no effect on niacin's lipid efficacy despite complete abrogation of the anti-lipolytic effect. Both MK-1903 and SCH900271 lowered FFAs acutely in humans; however, neither had the expected effects on serum lipids. Chronic FFA suppression was not sustainable via GPR109A agonism with niacin, MK-1903, or SCH900271. We conclude that the GPR109A receptor does not mediate niacin's lipid efficacy, challenging the long-standing FFA hypothesis.

 

[Grayson]

So basically, niacin blocks the release of fatty acids from fat cells. Fewer fatty acids are passed through to the liver, resulting in fewer VLDL particles. Less VLDL leads to less small LDL and higher HDL.1

I also found that niacin improves endothelial function and nitric oxide synthase activity.

If it blocks the release of fatty acids from fat cells, would it block ArA from entering the muscle?

 

[SwolenONE]

Since the goal is ArA entering muscle cells, rather than fat, you should be absolutely fine with this stack.

 

[Grayson]

Since the goal is ArA entering muscle cells, rather than fat, you should be absolutely fine with this stack.

Thanks for the response.

I'll try it out. I've done niacin with nitrates and had an amazing pump.

Since 2 of my workouts for the week are depletion/endurance the goal of supplementing ArA this go-around would be to lift heavier weight while still maintaining endurance.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

depletion/endurance

Would you be able to outline what you are trying to accomplish here? Im interested in the idea of glycogen depletion (and what, some sort of rebound/supercompensation?), and niacin's role.

 

[Grayson]

Would you be able to outline what you are trying to accomplish here? Im interested in the idea of glycogen depletion (and what, some sort of rebound/supercompensation?), and niacin's role.

I'm currently doing lyle mcdonald's ud2 diet/training protocol. It combines high rep/depletion style work (12 sets per bodypart, 12-20 reps, 45-60 TUT over the course of 2 days) to deplete glycogen with the intention of supercompensating for a power workout. It trades low cal/low carb days for depletion work and high cal/high carb for power/tension.

My intention behind using niacin is to utilize and deplete glycogen as much as possible in order to compensate as much as possible during these rebound days.

Today I went up to 1.2grams pre workout. I'm going to try 1.5grams tomorrow.

Just to be safe, instead of dosing ArA pre workout, I'm just dosing it with my meals.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

How have you found your performance on depletion days? The one niacin study Ive seen demonstrated a measurable compromise of exercise performance.

Im guessing, though, that the depletion days are only important in as much as they facilitate the goal of maximising performance on the power days? That is, the primary goal of this program is improving power capacity?

 

[Grayson]

How have you found your performance on depletion days? The one niacin study Ive seen demonstrated a measurable compromise of exercise performance.

Im guessing, though, that the depletion days are only important in as much as they facilitate the goal of maximising performance on the power days? That is, the primary goal of this program is improving power capacity?

Primary goal of the program is fat loss with minimal to nil muscle loss.

I've done one 8 week cycle already and I'm on my second. This time utilizing the niacin protocol.

I know what study you're referencing, but I haven't had any performance drops during my depletion days. I've seen increased vascularity and better breathing. The tingles are a hassle, but it's a worthy trade off.

The only factor limiting my performance is time of day. It's extremely difficult to do this type of workout so early in the morning. And it doesn't matter that I've been fasting. The point of depletion workouts is to be in a fasted state so it's best to do them in the morning or 4+ hours after a meal.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Are you using the NOW time release niacin pills?

 

[Grayson]

Are you using the NOW time release niacin pills?

Nope. Cheap bottle of 300mg from whole foods. Time release wouldn't be appropriate for this case.

 

[kissdadookie]

Most likely doesn't make a difference, ArA appears to enter and leave the bloodstream as a FFA very quickly.

 

[Grayson]

Most likely doesn't make a difference, ArA appears to enter and leave the bloodstream as a FFA very quickly.

This might sound odd, but would you happen to know at what rate?

Or should ara be dosed, then niacin? I'm only thinking this because without exercise ArA takes about 45 min to enter the muscle and niacin has a half life of 20-45 min.

 

[kissdadookie]

This might sound odd, but would you happen to know at what rate?

Or should ara be dosed, then niacin? I'm only thinking this because without exercise ArA takes about 45 min to enter the muscle and niacin has a half life of 20-45 min.

Minutes? There's like a whole discussion that includes that topic on the Bill L.'s Thoughts on ArA thread on bb.com from like a year ago.

But does it even matter if niacin is really just inhibiting the release of FA from fat cells?

 

[Grayson]

Minutes? There's like a whole discussion that includes that topic on the Bill L.'s Thoughts on ArA thread on bb.com from like a year ago.

But does it even matter if niacin is really just inhibiting the release of FA from fat cells?

Not really then.

I'll have to look up that thread.

If Ara gets deposited into the muscle that quickly, I'm guessing that Ara first, then niacin would make more sense.

 

[kissdadookie]

Not really then.

I'll have to look up that thread.

If Ara gets deposited into the muscle that quickly, I'm guessing that Ara first, then niacin would make more sense.

I don't think it goes straight to muscle, it gets taken up by blood cells first maybe? Not too sure. From as far as I can tell/recall though, the bulk of it ends up being taken up by muscle cell membranes.

 

[SwolenONE]

ArA has such a high affinity for muscle tissue, that its much much harder than people seem to think to hinder the results of supplementing with it.

 

[Grayson]

ArA has such a high affinity for muscle tissue, that its much much harder than people seem to think to hinder the results of supplementing with it.

Yes, but if supplementing with something that blocks the release of free fatty acids, couldn't it also potentially hinder absorption?

 

[Grayson]

Changing the experiment a bit and just did 1.5grams ara with some glycerol and 81mg aspirin. Going to wait 30-40 min, pop 1.2grams niacin and head to the gym.

 

[SwolenONE]

Yes, but if supplementing with something that blocks the release of free fatty acids, couldn't it also potentially hinder absorption?

Potentially, but its doubtful it will in the real world application.

 

[kissdadookie]

Yes, but if supplementing with something that blocks the release of free fatty acids, couldn't it also potentially hinder absorption?

Why would it hinder absorption? The niacin isn't actually creating a wall that blocks FA from getting in or out. IIRC niacin is depressing cAMP. cAMP is a major factor in freeing FA from adipose tissue. That's not actually directly blocking FA in the way you're probably thinking about.

 

[haiz69]

I had a period of testing out high-dosed Niacin Pre-workout for the GH benefits. Also was on a glycogen depletion/loading protocol during it. Bodycomp certainly improved a ton, but I'm not sure how much of a difference the Niacin made. I did get awfully red during the workouts though.