EP1C vs Alphamax

[fatburner2007]

How do EP1C and Alphamax compare?

 

[Grayson]

How do EP1C and Alphamax compare?

Both products can be used for a cut or a bulk.

Alphamax is a kitchen sink-type product, so it might be better given goals.

I see EP1C as more an expensive staple (if one can handle into their budget). It gives pretty good pumps when stacked and endurance markedly increased.

 

[kevinhy]

How do EP1C and Alphamax compare?

In terms of effects, they are completely different. I would say in simplest terms - epic attempts to target myostatin inhibition, while alphamax targets more of the testosterone/hormonal pathways.

 

[fatburner2007]

For cut/recomp, one better than the other?

 

[nicksox15]

Alphamax for cut/recomp. Armistane leans you out while the test boosting ingredients increase strength. Forskolin is awesome for cutting as well

 

[cubsfan815]

Lots of good answers in here.

Like the others have stated, they are 2 different types of products. Alphamax is ideal for recomp/cut which if I recall from your other thread, that's what you are looking for.

 

[kbayne]

For cut/recomp, one better than the other?

Personally have used (-)-epi (Follidrone) on a cut and didn't notice a whole lot. There were some benefits such as endurance, pumps, and a bit of increased vascularity, but not much on body composition. Would like to try on a caloric surplus though. Again, this is just me. Other people have noticed better results. I haven't used Alphamax though, but it does contain certain ingredients that will aid in body composition.

 

[manstr]

For cut/recomp, one better than the other?

Go with alphamax. Well dosed, also a bit more reliable than a supp that has nothing but anecdotal and hypothetical benefits. Id wait until more research is available for high doses of epicatechin supplementation.

 

[AndrewMcD]

Go with alphamax. Well dosed, also a bit more reliable than a supp that has nothing but anecdotal and hypothetical benefits. Id wait until more research is available for high doses of epicatechin supplementation.

What is considered the normal dose?

 

[Grayson]

What is considered the normal dose?

Folli has 500mg in a prop blend with "rice flour." It has been purported that the active is around 150mg.

EP1C has 300mg as stated on the bottle.

In terms of muscle building, there have only been in vitro and rat studies on (-)epi dealing with myostatin inhibition. However there have been studies noting it has positive effects on cholesterol and lipid profiles.

It's interesting on a cut, but I'm guessing it would really shine on a bulk.

 

[AntM1564]

Solid responses in this thread so far. One cannot really compare the two products, it would be like comparing apples to oranges. I have not run (-)epi yet, although, there is some intrigue by some logs. I personally like to see a product and ingredient out longer before using it. Anyways, Alphamax is versatile and can be used for cut, recomp, or bulk. As stated prior, it really is throwing the kitchen sink at you. You'll get an increase in free test levels from the 3,4 Divan, the L-Dopa and ZMA will help you with a deeper, more relaxing night's worth of sleep which in turn is going to aid in better recovery and growth, the Arimistane helps with a lean, dry look, and the Forksolin helps with a better body comp, even when bulking. It is not a prop belnd and you know what you're getting dose wise from each ingredient, not to mention, each ingredient is fully dosed.

 

[Quads_of_Stee]

Folli has 500mg in a prop blend with "rice flour." It has been purported that the active is around 150mg.

EP1C has 300mg as stated on the bottle.

In terms of muscle building, there have only been in vitro and rat studies on (-)epi dealing with myostatin inhibition. However there have been studies noting it has positive effects on cholesterol and lipid profiles.

It's interesting on a cut, but I'm guessing it would really shine on a bulk.

while it has been purported no one truly knows how much is exactly in it. could be 200,250, or hell even 251. Not only that but we do not know which extract is better

 

[cubsfan815]

while it has been purported no one truly knows how much is exactly in it. could be 200,250, or hell even 251. Not only that but we do not know which extract is better

Lol. I can see this thread turning bad real quick.

 

[nicksox15]

Lol. I can see this thread turning bad real quick.

 

[Quads_of_Stee]

Lol. I can see this thread turning bad real quick.

eh I won't fight about whose is better simply because I have not tried them all yet. Once I do I can officially make my own opinion

 

[KimChee75]

Just stack them both like I did :shrug:

 

[AntM1564]

Just stack them both like I did :shrug:

Could be an option, but only if you have ran both in the past, IMO.

 

[TKC432]

Not knowing what Olympus Labs EP1C used as a source for (-) Epicatechin it is difficult to speculate on the effectiveness of the product. That being said, all the research I have read points to (-)Epicatechin being most effective in a more traditional bulking environment ... caloric surplus, extreme muscle exertion, etc... So with this I would tend to think that any (-)Epicatechin product would provide the best results for a bulking or possibly recomp situation rather than a cutting situation therefore I have to lean toward Alphamax for your stated goals. Both appear to be good products in their own respective areas. However, I am still reserving my final opinion on EP1C until I see more from the logs and from those using it in other areas. Keeping in mind that even big pharma has yet to develop a viable myostatin inhibitor as well as the fact that the source of the (-)Epicatechin in EP1C is not known this area of supplementation study has yet to be dominated by any proven compound ..... I am keeping my eyes open daily for whomever rises to the top with regards to a viable otc myostatin inhibitor.

 

[fatburner2007]

Yes

Lots of good answers in here.

Like the others have stated, they are 2 different types of products. Alphamax is ideal for recomp/cut which if I recall from your other thread, that's what you are looking for.

 

[fatburner2007]

No need, going with Alphamax, thanks to all those who actually provided helpful feedback.

 

[R1balla]

No need, going with Alphamax, thanks to all those who actually provided helpful feedback.

I would be interested in you logging this. Did you get 1 or 2 bottles? I didn't see anything from 1 bottle but I want to give it another shot at 2 bottles for 8 weeks

 

[Jiigzz]

Folli has 500mg in a prop blend with "rice flour." It has been purported that the active is around 150mg.

EP1C has 300mg as stated on the bottle.

In terms of muscle building, there have only been in vitro and rat studies on (-)epi dealing with myostatin inhibition. However there have been studies noting it has positive effects on cholesterol and lipid profiles.

It's interesting on a cut, but I'm guessing it would really shine on a bulk.

This would be incorrect - follidrone should have a minimum 250mg of Epi based on where it lies in the prop blend.

 

[TKC432]

This would be incorrect - follidrone should have a minimum 250mg of Epi based on where it lies in the prop blend.

Don't know about everyone else but I am becoming quite curious as to what the source of the (-)Epicatechin is for both of these products. I have done extensive research on the subject and found way too much info to post here at the moment but suffice it to say that pure (-) Epicatechin is VERY expensive. I'm sure everyone is aware at this point that it occurs naturally in several things such as raw cacao, green tea, etc .... but to get the equivalent pf a 250-300mg dose of (-) Epicatechin going this route would require a massive amount of either raw cacao or green tea .... way too much to market in capsules.

Myostatin inhibitor research is the latest and greatest it would seem at the moment. There are several big pharmaceutical companies currently in trials on a few different approaches. One being a soluble myostatin decoy receptor that would cause the myostatin to bind with it rather than the muscle receptor and then be excreted in through the urine .... the other avenue being explored is along the lines of myostatin antibodies that bind to the myostatin and prevent it from reaching the muscle gene switch. Naturally the main focus for these future drugs would be for muscle wasting conditions/diseases .... but the bodybuilding world is watching

All this leaves a large vacancy in the OTC / Supplement area ..... and currently it seems to be Olympus Labs and Black Lion Research who are racing to fill this vacancy .... MHP has fallen flat with the anecdotal failure of MYO X. To be fair however, the jury is still out IMO on the effectiveness of Follidrone and EP1C .... I have been watching the logs on this site as well as a few others regarding these two. Sadly I have not had the opportunity to try either of them for my own research purposes. I would love to do so with an open, scientific mindset .... (PhD Bio-Chemist brother who lifts along side of me and myself currently working toward my own degree in Sports Nutrition)

I would love to see a viable OTC Myostatin Inhibitor dominate the market and really work .... best of luck to the two contenders mentioned above

 

[jp_x_type]

I'm not sure if this is a stupid consideration from my part, but I just don't understand the justifications given for using prop blends when a company could easily run a lab analysis of a ***** company's product to find out the exact ingredient amounts, no? I don't get it...

 

[kisaj]

I'm not sure if this is a stupid consideration from my part, but I just don't understand the justifications given for using prop blends when a company could easily run a lab analysis of a ***** company's product to find out the exact ingredient amounts, no? I don't get it...

Not stupid at all. But, it would never be allowed to be discussed here.

 

[kisaj]

Don't know about everyone else but I am becoming quite curious as to what the source of the (-)Epicatechin is for both of these products. I have done extensive research on the subject and found way too much info to post here at the moment but suffice it to say that pure (-) Epicatechin is VERY expensive. I'm sure everyone is aware at this point that it occurs naturally in several things such as raw cacao, green tea, etc .... but to get the equivalent pf a 250-300mg dose of (-) Epicatechin going this route would require a massive amount of either raw cacao or green tea .... way too much to market in capsules.

Myostatin inhibitor research is the latest and greatest it would seem at the moment. There are several big pharmaceutical companies currently in trials on a few different approaches. One being a soluble myostatin decoy receptor that would cause the myostatin to bind with it rather than the muscle receptor and then be excreted in through the urine .... the other avenue being explored is along the lines of myostatin antibodies that bind to the myostatin and prevent it from reaching the muscle gene switch. Naturally the main focus for these future drugs would be for muscle wasting conditions/diseases .... but the bodybuilding world is watching

All this leaves a large vacancy in the OTC / Supplement area ..... and currently it seems to be Olympus Labs and Black Lion Research who are racing to fill this vacancy .... MHP has fallen flat with the anecdotal failure of MYO X. To be fair however, the jury is still out IMO on the effectiveness of Follidrone and EP1C .... I have been watching the logs on this site as well as a few others regarding these two. Sadly I have not had the opportunity to try either of them for my own research purposes. I would love to do so with an open, scientific mindset .... (PhD Bio-Chemist brother who lifts along side of me and myself currently working toward my own degree in Sports Nutrition)

I would love to see a viable OTC Myostatin Inhibitor dominate the market and really work .... best of luck to the two contenders mentioned above

Excellent post.

 

[AntM1564]

I would be interested in you logging this. Did you get 1 or 2 bottles? I didn't see anything from 1 bottle but I want to give it another shot at 2 bottles for 8 weeks

One bottle is great, two is even better! If the OP only has one now, it might be worth while to purchase a second in the coming weeks when the Olympia rolls around. There might be some good sales.

 

[R1balla]

One bottle is great, two is even better! If the OP only has one now, it might be worth while to purchase a second in the coming weeks when the Olympia rolls around. There might be some good sales.

yeah id def suggest 2 bottles of alphamax

but I did see a nice libido increase in 4 weeks.

 

[fatburner2007]

Definitely, if you hear of a promotion on this let me know.

One bottle is great, two is even better! If the OP only has one now, it might be worth while to purchase a second in the coming weeks when the Olympia rolls around. There might be some good sales.

 

[cubsfan815]

Definitely, if you hear of a promotion on this let me know.

Island has it for $28.99 right now.


http://www.islandsupplements.com/performax-labs-alpha-max.html

 

[Spaniard]

For cut/recomp, one better than the other?

I realize the OP decided to go with AlphaMax, but I'd like to just add my 2 cents in for anyone else that might search and find this thread.

Here is how I look at it, yes, I'm a rep insert bias conspiracy here < >. Okay, moving forward. On a cut or during a situation where someone is trying to recomp I would personally go for a product that aids in performance increases. Supplements that are going to increase endurance, reps, strength etc. From the anecdotal feedback and from the data we do have (rodent & in vitro) we have seen rather clear indications on what epicatechin as an ingredient can do. Users have reported increased endurance, strength and recovery and sweating. The sweating part could be hypothesized to be from increased thermogenesis but that's merely speculation at this point until more studies emerge.

Those results are just the performance increases. A rather large amount of users have reported increased fullness and vascularity as well. On the same hand a lot of users have reported visual changes not only noticed by themselves but also those around them.

Now let's think about what happens more often than not during a cut.

Decreased strength
Decreased endurance
Fatigue
Feeling deflated
Decreased vascularity (depending on carb intake)

And now to recap the benefits of Epicatechin

Increases in strength
Increases in endurance
Muscle fullness
Increased vascularity
Increased sweating (thermogenic effect?)
Visual changes

It seems to me that epicatechin is ideal during a cut to mitigate a large amount of the negatives that are seen and felt in times of a caloric deficit.


Now we take a look at OTC testosterone boosters.

Increased libido
Increased well-being
Better sleep (AlphaMax specifically)
"Drying you out" (Arimistane)
Body Recomp (AlphaMax - Forskolin)

To me it seems like together these would provide quite a potent combination for reaching your goals. If I remember correctly AlphaMax has Forskolin in it (?), which will also aid with body recomposition. Either way you really can't go wrong as it seems they both have solid feedback but it's silly to think that an ingredient such as epicatechin wouldn't be useful during a cut when it has been shown to increase many of the aspects that decrease while dieting.

 

[x_muscle]

Im taking both now

 

[Adizzle1]

Increased libido
Increased well-being
Better sleep (AlphaMax specifically)
"Drying you out" (Arimistane)
Body Recomp (AlphaMax - Forskolin)

Suprisingly one of the most often mentioned benefits is increased strength, consistent strength gains from one week to the next!

First I'd like to go over strength gain in the gym. Each and every week I was able to either add weight, or increase reps to my lifts.
This is a great product and I will definitely be picking it up again.

As well users report increased muscle fullness and vasccularity that accompanies the muscle hardening effect quite nicely.

Id be interested in hearing feedback from X_Muscle and others that have ran them together, the strength gains must be insane!

 

[Spaniard]

Suprisingly one of the most often mentioned benefits is increased strength, consistent strength gains from one week to the next!



As well users report increased muscle fullness and vasccularity that accompanies the muscle hardening effect quite nicely.

Id be interested in hearing feedback from X_Muscle and others that have ran them together, the strength gains must be insane!

That's pretty great to get from a T booster. I usually don't put much stock in T boosters doing much more than increasing mood/alpha feeling and libido increases. Perhaps I'll have to give AlphaMax a run it sounds solid

 

[fatburner2007]

Personally, I prefer the ingredients in Alphamax over EP1C.

I realize the OP decided to go with AlphaMax, but I'd like to just add my 2 cents in for anyone else that might search and find this thread.

Here is how I look at it, yes, I'm a rep insert bias conspiracy here < >. Okay, moving forward. On a cut or during a situation where someone is trying to recomp I would personally go for a product that aids in performance increases. Supplements that are going to increase endurance, reps, strength etc. From the anecdotal feedback and from the data we do have (rodent & in vitro) we have seen rather clear indications on what epicatechin as an ingredient can do. Users have reported increased endurance, strength and recovery and sweating. The sweating part could be hypothesized to be from increased thermogenesis but that's merely speculation at this point until more studies emerge.

Those results are just the performance increases. A rather large amount of users have reported increased fullness and vascularity as well. On the same hand a lot of users have reported visual changes not only noticed by themselves but also those around them.

Now let's think about what happens more often than not during a cut.

Decreased strength
Decreased endurance
Fatigue
Feeling deflated
Decreased vascularity (depending on carb intake)

And now to recap the benefits of Epicatechin

Increases in strength
Increases in endurance
Muscle fullness
Increased vascularity
Increased sweating (thermogenic effect?)
Visual changes

It seems to me that epicatechin is ideal during a cut to mitigate a large amount of the negatives that are seen and felt in times of a caloric deficit.


Now we take a look at OTC testosterone boosters.

Increased libido
Increased well-being
Better sleep (AlphaMax specifically)
"Drying you out" (Arimistane)
Body Recomp (AlphaMax - Forskolin)

To me it seems like together these would provide quite a potent combination for reaching your goals. If I remember correctly AlphaMax has Forskolin in it (?), which will also aid with body recomposition. Either way you really can't go wrong as it seems they both have solid feedback but it's silly to think that an ingredient such as epicatechin wouldn't be useful during a cut when it has been shown to increase many of the aspects that decrease while dieting.

 

[cubsfan815]

Personally, I prefer the ingredients in Alphamax over EP1C.

Adizzel1 was referring to Alphamax.

 

[fatburner2007]

Sorry about that...quoted the wrong reply...corrected.

Adizzel1 was referring to Alphamax.

 

[T-Bone]

I wouldn't run both together. If you did, how would you know which one is doing what?. Unless you've run both separately before, you'll have no clue about which product is actually giving you the results.

 

[Olympus Labs]

The important thing is that they're both extremely solid products which both yield results. You can't really compare the two to see which is better since they serve different purposes but they are highly synergistic. If budget permits they should absolutely be stacked to further maximize your goals.

 

[T-Bone]

Oranges are sweeter than Apples and have only one color. Apples come in many colors. Oranges have a thicker peel or "rind" that you can peel off with your hands. Ever try and peel an apple with your hands?. Apples can be tasty baked in pies. Oranges, well I've never had a pie with oranges in it. Well, maybe a tart. Apples always have seeds as far as I know. Oranges can be seeded or seedless.

Hmmm. That's all I can think of at the moment.

 

[Spaniard]

Oranges are sweeter than Apples and have only one color. Apples come in many colors. Oranges have a thicker peel or "rind" that you can peel off with your hands. Ever try and peel an apple with your hands?. Apples can be tasty baked in pies. Oranges, well I've never had a pie with oranges in it. Well, maybe a tart. Apples always have seeds as far as I know. Oranges can be seeded or seedless.

Hmmm. That's all I can think of at the moment.

Wrong, honey crisp apples are MUCH sweeter than oranges.

You're trying to peel apples all wrong, lol. Peel it with a knife and it's MUCH easier than peeling the rind from an orange.

 

[T-Bone]

Wrong, honey crisp apples are MUCH sweeter than oranges.

You're trying to peel apples all wrong, lol. Peel it with a knife and it's MUCH easier than peeling the rind from an orange.

...They don't let me have knives anymore!

 

[Spaniard]

...They don't let me have knives anymore!

I can imagine why

 

[kisaj]

Not an apple fan, but will crush honey crisp and some cuties.

 

[TKC432]

Who said anything about the epi being extracted

It doesnt state that on the label

(-)Epicatechin does not occur naturally by itself as a raw material .... therefore it needs to be extracted from one of several known sources. Current pricing for pure (-) Epicatechin from multiple companies such as Sigma-Aldrich for example is $128 for just 5mg. There are other sources out of China that may bring the price down a little bit but nowhere near what would make it cost-effective to produce and sell in 500mg doses ... and who knows the quality when sourcing from China .. So with this in mind I surmise that the product is being extracted from one of the known plant sources by the company selling the product. Now this is not a negative thing at all .... its smart business really. If they have perfected a cost-effective method of extracting pure (-)epicatechin and are able to bring it to market in 500mg dosage levels and turn a profit while keeping the retail cost in line then good for them ..... Still leaves me very curious as to the source. That's the downside to having a bio-chemistry as well as botany background .... curiosity regarding supplements such as these :thinking:

 

[Spaniard]

Not an apple fan, but will crush honey crisp and some cuties.

Honey crisps are the beez knees bro, all day

 

[808shredded]

The important thing is that they're both extremely solid products which both yield results. You can't really compare the two to see which is better since they serve different purposes but they are highly synergistic. If budget permits they should absolutely be stacked to further maximize your goals.

Yep.....stack it!

 

[TGB1987]

You can find all the BLR products as well as EPIC here. https://www.tgbsupplements.com/m-288-black-lion-research.aspx. We are also offering a free MRI bag full of samples and water bottle for the first 50 AM members that order. Put that you are from AM in the order notes. All follidrone orders will ship out on Monday.

 

[hardknock]

(-)Epicatechin does not occur naturally by itself as a raw material .... therefore it needs to be extracted from one of several known sources. Current pricing for pure (-) Epicatechin from multiple companies such as Sigma-Aldrich for example is $128 for just 5mg. There are other sources out of China that may bring the price down a little bit but nowhere near what would make it cost-effective to produce and sell in 500mg doses ... and who knows the quality when sourcing from China .. So with this in mind I surmise that the product is being extracted from one of the known plant sources by the company selling the product. Now this is not a negative thing at all .... its smart business really. If they have perfected a cost-effective method of extracting pure (-)epicatechin and are able to bring it to market in 500mg dosage levels and turn a profit while keeping the retail cost in line then good for them ..... Still leaves me very curious as to the source. That's the downside to having a bio-chemistry as well as botany background .... curiosity regarding supplements such as these :thinking:

It is not a downside at all; more or less a credit. As with anyone else with common sense would be asking the same questions seeing as we are all normally very skeptical of anything we see in the supplement industry.