Ecdysterone? Anyone heard of this?

Joshlm69

Joshlm69

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So I just read this new article (sorry if links not allowed)



Has anyone heard of this? Is it what it is made up to be? Thoughts?




Something new approaches on the horizon

We set up a feedback thread on our forum a few months ago asking our forum members who tend to really know the science of supplements inside out, what products we were missing from the site they would like to see. They gave us a great list of brands which we have since added. The likes of EBF, Myotropics, Muscle Feast, Millennium Sports, and several others all came via users suggesting them to us. However, one name we saw pop up frequently is the one which has since caused waves on there.



What has caused such excitement?

I will be honest and admit I had never heard of this product. With a none too fancy looking website and ingredients I had heard of before, I was sceptical. User feedback told a radically different story.

"Big gains in muscle and strength."
"Improved recovery ability, even as volume and training frequency increased."
"Better sleep."
"Improved libido."
"An absence of muscle soreness the day after."
"Joint aches and pains disappearing."
"Reduction in body fat."

I kept reading this and really the question became not why we should stock this product but why the hell didn't we?



Ecdysterone overview

Ecdysterones form part of a group of compounds referred to as phytosteroids, more commonly referred to as plant steroids. Research, much of it conducted in the former Soviet Union, indicates that Ecdysterone can increase the rate of protein synthesis and help to lower body fat also. Unlike anabolic steroids they do this without the negative side effects commonly witnessed in users of androgenic steroids.

Key Point - Ecdysterone works in a similar manner to steroids but without the negative effects associated with steroids. They won't impact your body's natural testosterone levels or cause negative side effects.



If it's so good why haven't we heard of it before?

Ecdysterone supplements have actually been around for sometime. The success that Russian athletes have experienced with them make it a popular supplement in Russia. Unfortunately, as with much in life, the results someone experiences will be proportional to the quality of the product itself. In the same way that a cheap, low quality protein will not deliver the correct levels of ingredients in a form that enables you to make gains at a rapid pace (as opposed to sending you to the toilet more frequently), so an Ecdysterone supplement that fails to use the correct extract, from the correct plant, at the right concentration, will fail to deliver the results people expect. As cost tends to increase with greater quality Ecdysterone extracts, and with the effect that the supplement becomes less affordable, so we have tended to see companies putting out cheap, low quality Ecdysterone supplements to maximise profit margins as opposed to ensure the customer receives the very best quality product possible.



Ecdysterone - The right source is crucial

There are many types of Ecdysterone from many plants and to cover them all would mean writing forever and you quickly losing interest. The key point would be no different so I will save time and say it here that the only form of Ecdysterone which is supported by research is ecdysterone sourced from the rhaponticum carthomoides plant. Full spectrum Rhaponticum carthomoides extract had been shown to accelerate anabolic signalling (1,2) and increase protein synthesis (3). Furthermore, this extract can increase free arachidonic acid levels (4), which have been shown to have a strongly anabolic effect in the body. For those of you who like the Molecular Nutrition supplement X-Factor you can expect powerful synergy between Mass Pro Synthagen and X-Factor.

Unfortunately, this is the most difficult to source and most expensive out there which has resulted in many supplement companies using Ecdysterone sources which are less effective explaining why many users of such supplements got nowhere with them.



The Bottom Line

You wouldn't expect a high performance car to be built using low octane fuel and the same applies with getting good results from Ecdysterone products. A wide range of products have been offered for sale by supplement consumers but using woefully low percentage extracts of Ecdysterone, not comparable at all to what is used in the research or what was used by Russian athletes. The wrong source of extract, an insufficient dose, or failing to extract to a high percentage will all lead to an absence of positive effects for users. Of all the products on the market featuring Ecdysterone there is only one which uses full spectrum Rhaponticum carthomoides extract and combines it with nutrients designed to maximise intracellular energy status (creatine, ATP, BCAA's, PH Buffer and nucleic acids).

The feedback on our forum has been nothing short of immense. I have personally used it and am happy to give it my highest recommendation.



Introducing Mass Pro Synthagen

Mass Pro Synthagen uses full spectrum Ecdysterone extracted from Rhaponticum carthomoides , the exact same source used in the research. Going on, Synthagen also adds in other ergogenics designed to work in synergy with Ecdysterone to provide a comprehensive all in one solution designed to progressively increase the rate at which the body can gain muscle and lose fat.



See the Mass Pro Synthagen thread here.





References

(1) Syrov VN. “Mechanism of the anabolic action of phytoecdysteroids in mammals.” Nauchnye Doki Vyss Shkoly Biol Nauki (11), (1984): pages 16-20.

(2) N. Todorov, et al. “MOLECULAR-BIOLOGICAL PROBLEMS OF DRUG DESIGN AND MECHANISM OF DRUG ACTIONTHE EFFECT OF ECDYSTERONE ON THE BIOSYNTHESIS OF PROTEINS AND NUCLEIC ACIDS IN MICE.” Translated from Khimiko-Farmatsevticheskii Zhurnal, 34 (9), (Sep 2000): pages 3-5.

(3) Steroids 2010;75:632–637 - Gorelick-Feldman J, Cohick W, Raskin I. Ecdysteroids elicit a rapid Ca2+ flux leading to Akt activation and increased protein synthesis in skeletal muscle cells.

(4) Lafont R., Dinan L. 2003. Practical uses for ecdysteroids in mammals including humans: an update. 30pp. Journal

(5) 1) Syrov VN, et al. “Anabolic activity of phytoecdysone-ecdysterone isolated from Rhaponticum carthamoides.” Pharmacologic I Toksikologiia vol 39 (6), (Nov-Dec 1976): pages 690-693
 
xR1pp3Rx

xR1pp3Rx

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a lot of people like ecdy but even more people like this mass pro synth. its kinda like HMB though. its not that good but has some old data that pops up from time to time and revives the stuff. personally I like it, but not because it is like a steroid. in fact its far from it.
maybe someone will find a way to make this stuff work better like they have with the new HMB-fa that's being hyped now.
anyhow.. you can try some IFN ecdy for a lot less moolah and see if its something you want to spend that kind of cash on.
ecdy_lg.png
 
Joshlm69

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a lot of people like ecdy but even more people like this mass pro synth. its kinda like HMB though. its not that good but has some old data that pops up from time to time and revives the stuff. personally I like it, but not because it is like a steroid. in fact its far from it. maybe someone will find a way to make this stuff work better like they have with the new HMB-fa that's being hyped now. anyhow.. you can try some IFN ecdy for a lot less moolah and see if its something you want to spend that kind of cash on. <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=102892"/>
Thanks for the honest reply. Was thinking about stacking with follidrone but I'll just save my $ instead
 

snagencyV2.0

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ecdysterone eh? welcome to 2001
lookit some of the reference data dates they are listing..1984, and 1976(!!!)

what archive did you pull this from josh? :p
 
Joshlm69

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ecdysterone eh? welcome to 2001 lookit some of the reference data dates they are listing..1984, and 1976(!!!) what archive did you pull this from josh? :p
Predator nutrition posted it on Facebook as the "most underrated supplement ever made" , and are charging $100 a bottle, so was intruiged. Feel sorry for the poor chaps that are going to get conned! 4 days until Mass 550 ;). If it turns up in the post that is!
 
Piston Honda

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Maybe as an adaptogen, but in no way does it deliver on any other purported benefits.

I remember getting some great workouts in on Thermolife's E-Bol back in the day, but I feel like it put me at ease more than anything, and I can't say for sure it was the ecdy in the formula; more like the blend itself.
 
Joshlm69

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You mean like you?. Always remember that if something costs more than it works better....
Clearly not me, I posted here and did some research before reaching for the credit card like some people would of done.

Why the hate?
 

Garyboy

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Synthagen is a few years old. It's a very solid recovery supplement. The formulator, Rob, is a great guy.
 

lukyo

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Sorry to bump an old thread but was interested in the studies the above linked study referenced.

This one only used 30mg ecdy per day. Which e xplsins why it's findings contrasted the effectiveness found in other studies
 

Mixelflick

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Ecdy is a controversial supplement, but the research is starting to validate what Dr. Syrov and others were saying in the 1960's: It works. Now I'm not saying "works" like steroids, but it does convey a competitive advantage IMO. Here are some of the latest studies/papers from Western/non-Russian journals and Universities:

1.) Estrogen receptor beta is involved in skel... [Mol Nutr Food Res. 2014] - PubMed - NCBI
2.) Ecdysterone gives rat mega-muscles
3.) Ecdysteroids curb growth of fat tissue
4.) Try ecdysteroids for younger skin and more muscle mass

Item #1 is the latest and although the MOA will "concern" people, the end result shouldn't. I don't think any ONE mechanism is responsible for the increased rate of muscle gain, fat loss etc.. Everything from modulating estrogen, cortisol to the PI3K-AKT pathway have been proposed.

More importantly, these are adaptogens - not anabolics. Their MOA is entirely different, and it follows that how you employ them should too. Unfortunately, much of what western sports nutrition companies have published is rubbish. Some of them have directly lifted erroneous "ad copy" for companies that offered Ecdy products prior.

If you're using Ecdy (whoever's product), I'd be happy to help you get the most out of it...
 

lukyo

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I'd like to hear what you've got to say. I plan on taking 1200mg a day split up into 4 doses with protein. ..
 

Mixelflick

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Thanks for the opportunity. A few questions..

1) Who's product are you using, and what's the source genus plant for the Ecdy?
2.) Biological age?
3.) Training age (how many years you've been training)?
4.) Goall?
 

lukyo

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Thanks for the opportunity. A few questions..

1) Who's product are you using, and what's the source genus plant for the Ecdy?
2.) Biological age?
3.) Training age (how many years you've been training)?
4.) Goall?
Beyond a century cianotis vaga

28yrs

18mths programmed lifting running Texas method currently

Powerlifting. Been a chubby 90kg. Cut to 84kg. Best lifts in a meet 180kg squat, 135kg bench and 200kg deadlift.
Since cut currently at 170, 125 & 190

Looking to fill out to a lean 93kg over next couple years. Hope in next year to get 225 squat, 160 bench and 250-270 deadlift
 

Mixelflick

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You are on the cusp of the first (and biggest) decline in test/GH etc in a man's lifetime. Doesn't mean the world's ending, just be aware. Sorry to say on the CV, but it's an inferior source genus for Ecdysterone and in fact, likely over-standardiized for 20 Hydroxyecdysterone. You want at least 90mg of Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract. Preferably a full spectrum one.

You're working the big 3 and powerlifting, so your routine will need some tweaking too. Nothing huge, but the distinction must be made. How long have you been using the CV and have you noticed anything?
 

lukyo

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I'm not sure i know what you mean. Routine needs tweaking to achieve what? Distinction between what?

What brought you to go with rhap carth? Would 1200mg cv be at least as potent as 90mg rap carth?
 

Mixelflick

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I'm not sure i know what you mean. Routine needs tweaking to achieve what? Distinction between what?

What brought you to go with rhap carth? Would 1200mg cv be at least as potent as 90mg rap carth?
Adaptogens allow the organism (you), to adapt faster/better to an environmental stressor. If there is no environmental stress, it logically folllows that adaptogens will perform sub-optimally. This is why you'll often see more favorable feedback from people who are "cutting". There are ways to manipulate your training/diet to set the table for what an adaptogen can really do.

CV is in no way, shape or form comparable to RCE. RCE for example contains a group of 10 to 12 (depending upon who's literature you read) ecdysteroids referred to as the levseins complex. RCE also contains tannins and resins not found in CV. One of these tannins is thought to curb your body's ability to convert sugars to stored bodyfat. Those are just 2 examples. CV is a piss poor source of Ecdy. It's cheap though, and China will tell you how great it is.

The sons run BAC now. Warren (their father) would be turning over in his grave if he saw this. Prior to them carrying CV, they distributed Maxwell Researche's Anabolica (5-alpha-hydroxy laxogenin). An ecdy analog that was a superior product, and making a resurgence now in the market.

It's just a damn shame CV is someone's first "ecdy" experience. No wonder it gets a bad rap....
 

lukyo

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Is there more than one type of 20-hydroxyecdysone?

That's what I'm interested in not any other phytochemicals benefits right now.

cv extract containing enough per dollar relative to others seems the most important thing.

My goals are solely increasing strength atm. That's what I'm interested in seeing if ecdy helps
 

Mixelflick

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At last count, there were 476 ecdysteroids that've been identified.

http://ecdybase.org/

I've used Ecdy in its various forms for over 20 years, written books about it etc. IMO 20-H is nothing special. I've down grams of it orally, made cycoldextrin intra-nasal sprays and transdermals with/without DMSO with 20-H. Only trans at over a gram/day did I notice any benefit, and it was modest at best

RCE is it (orally), and the genuine article is north of $2000/kilo. Like 20-H, I've used it via various delivery methods up to and including a sterile inj. (daily).

You want strength? PM me. And no, it's not a pill/powder/potion.
 

lukyo

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I didn't mean other ectosteroids.

20h is what has the studies so far and I don't want to guinea pig myself completely.

I want a lot of things but is what you have in mind $100 pm or less?

I don't want to guinea pig myself too much
 

lukyo

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If you can link to where I can get the books about ecdy that'd be good
 

Mixelflick

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I didn't mean other ectosteroids.

20h is what has the studies so far and I don't want to guinea pig myself completely.

I want a lot of things but is what you have in mind $100 pm or less?


I don't want to guinea pig myself too much
Let me save you wasted years and hundreds, if not thousands of dollars: 20-H isn't what you're looking for. XYZ company thinks they know what the active ingredient is, so they (over)standardize for it. It isn't 20-H. You want a full spectrum extract, something that retains what I call, "natures fingerprint". I've read all of Syrov's work, LaFont's too. I've ordered every research paper from the Univ. of Szeged in Hungary. read all of the relevant studies done in Japan, Brazil (mostly Suma there). I've followed it from Russia to Rutgers. Trust in what I'm telling you.

Don't want to be a guinea pig? You're in the wrong business, LOL. The Dr's that prescribe powerful medications in this country will be the first to tell you that (in many cases), "nobody knows how it works". If you think that's BS, sit down with one and ask him about XYZ med. Most are clueless, they just know what their big pharma rep pushes on them, or what they heard/saw at the (big pharma paid for) cruise.

What I have in mind is priceless. In fact, it's free...
 

lukyo

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Not sure what doctors prescribing drugs has to do with anything... or supports your claims.

I said complete guinea pig. Everything is trial and error. But someone always knows how a mainstream product works in regards to the intended effect.

20h is an active ingredient. Effectiveness, delivery and potency is in question.

What is the active ingredient in your opinion? Or is "natures footprint" another way of saying you believe a certain herb works but don't know why?

Can you link me to some studies?

In regards to the private message you sent. I'd rather not give out my email. What's wrong with pm'ing again instead?
 

Mixelflick

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Fair enough.

Nobody can say for certain how it works. Not Syrov, not LaFont, not me etc. I'm saying mother nature doesn't fuk up. I asked for your email in order to send excel based auto-calculators for 6 different loading patterns we use, specific to adaptogens. The first one boosts your 1RM by 5% minimum. Doesn't sound like much until you consider it brings a 300lb bench to 315 right quick. The following 5 add anywhere between 5 and 10%. Can't exactly do that in a PM.

I could link you to dozens of studies, but sounds like you've got it covered.

Best of luck..
 

lukyo

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I wouldn't be interested in "loading" calculators before you can tell me how much it will cost. Can't you link to the source you got these protocols from instead? Why not have them online? Why ask me in a PM? Why not say so? instead of saying "something" and "nothing in return"

"I could link...but..."

That would've broken my BS meter if this hadn't

"Mother nature doesn't fuk up"

What exactly? In making substances that are safe for humans to ingest? Like poison ivy? What sort of supplement is sold like that?!
 
mcgeier

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Mixelflick whats your opinion on Olympus Labs Transdermal laxogenin product? is it worth it?
What ecdy product would you recommend?
Whats better ecdy or Laxogenin?
 

Mixelflick

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Mixelflick whats your opinion on Olympus Labs Transdermal laxogenin product? is it worth it?
What ecdy product would you recommend?
Whats better ecdy or Laxogenin?
I haven't had the opportunity to evaluate their Trans Laxogenin, but will give it a look. The molecular weight (430) is feasible, but I'd have to see what penetration enhancers they're using. What's better, Ecdy or Laxogenin?

Depends.

If the source genus for "Ecdy" is Cyanotis Vaga, you might as well flush it. If on the other hand it's Rhaponticum Carthamoids Extract, you likely have a superior (oral) product. Ajuga Turkistanica is likewise an excellent source genus for Turkesterone, but Thermolife has/had the exclusive license to distribute it in the U.S.The genuine article comes from the ICPS (Institute of Chemistry and Plant Sciences), in Uzbekistan.

Laxogenin is an Ecdy analogue, usually synthesized from Diosgenin. It does occur naturally in smilax sieboldi and some strains of tribulus, but it isn't economically feasible to extract it from those plants. There were a variety of those analogs study in 1976 by Dr. Syrov and his team, referred to as compounds I-IV. I'm one of the few people that has the associated, translated paper (An Experimental Study On The Anabolic Activities Of 6-Keto Derivatives Of Some Natural Sapogenins). I also have the even rarer companion paper, "Natural, Non-Hormonal Anabolic Agents, Derived From Plants... "

A well done Laxogenin (or Laxogenin Acetate), is a superb recovery agent/anti-inflammatory. Here's a pic of one of the last legit Laxogenin products sold in this country (Maxwell Research's Anabolica). It's the yellow labelled bottle...
 

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xR1pp3Rx

xR1pp3Rx

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I wouldn't be interested in "loading" calculators before you can tell me how much it will cost. Can't you link to the source you got these protocols from instead? Why not have them online? Why ask me in a PM? Why not say so? instead of saying "something" and "nothing in return"

"I could link...but..."

That would've broken my BS meter if this hadn't

"Mother nature doesn't fuk up"

What exactly? In making substances that are safe for humans to ingest? Like poison ivy? What sort of supplement is sold like that?!
dude.. the guy was tryin to help you. and offered to give you a training calculator for FREE, and somehow you insist he wants money. the calculator is specific to his adaptogen products which fall in line with this thread. youre being an idiot for no reason. he tells you that the CV product youre asking about is junk and you argue with him. im pretty sure you don't know but mixle is THE authority on this subject when it comes to these and other like forums. im not saying I agree with him either but I can comprehend what hes saying, something you seem unable to do.
 

Mixelflick

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I wouldn't be interested in "loading" calculators before you can tell me how much it will cost. Can't you link to the source you got these protocols from instead? Why not have them online? Why ask me in a PM? Why not say so? instead of saying "something" and "nothing in return"

I previously mentioned the cost: Was going to give them to you for free. They normally come only as part of 2 books, The Blueprint 3.0 or The Blueprint Meteoric respectively. And yeah, those cost money - $97 and $75, respectively. Before anyone gets bent on "$100 for a book? No f'm way" let me say this: I have testimonials from here to Australia speaking to its value. One guy said if I was charging 10x what I was for 3.0, it'd still be a bargain. Another guy pointed out that if people ate 1 page of The BP/day, they'd gladly buy another copy when their current "supply" ran out.

You see man, information is power. A LOT more powerful than any supplement, including the ones I formulate.

"I could link...but..."

That would've broken my BS meter if this hadn't

Your BS meter, b/c I wouldn't link? I'm supposed to do the work for you, the work/studies I dug up over the past 20 years then undoubtedly have to debate you in how you interpret them? The ones I had PAID to have translated from Russian/Hungarian into English?

Those are the studies you want links for?

Not with your attitude...

That would've broken my BS meter if this hadn't...

"Mother nature doesn't fuk up"

What exactly? In making substances that are safe for humans to ingest? Like poison ivy? What sort of supplement is sold like that?!
That comment tripped your BS meter, did it? You weren't swift enough to understand it wasn't a blanket statement that includes poisonous mushrooms, etc? You know what? I'm going to let you find out the hard way, waste thousands of dollars and more importantly time - time you'll never get back. There are other, well meaning people here that want to learn. They've already PM'd me.

Next person that PM's me with your "BS meter" drivel gets The Blueprint 2.0 for free. Just leave me your email address. It was written/published in 2009 and included 4 of the 6 loading patterns in question. Blueprint 3.0 and The Meteoric include 2 others and automates the entire process.

Go ahead brother, I want you to ask on this board and/or ANY other around the world: "Is Cyanotis Vaga a good source of Ecdy"? Any board in the world.

Then come back here and talk to me (or not). I already know what you're going to find...
 

Mixelflick

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One last thing, before I head out to train people.

Thermolife, MASS, Tonovara and IForce all use RCE in their products vs. CV (or some other crap).

That tell you anything?
 

lukyo

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I previously mentioned the cost:
Quote the post

It is more than clear i was referring to the cost of this herb that you're advising me to buy with mother natures unfukable special fingerprint that you don't know what the active ingredient is.

Was going to give them to you for free.
Then why did you offer me "something priceless" instead which turned out to be calculators that evidently have a price.


They normally come only as part of 2 books, The Blueprint 3.0 or The Blueprint Meteoric respectively. And yeah, those cost money - $97 and $75, respectively. Before anyone gets bent on "$100 for a book? No f'm way" let me say this: I have testimonials from here to Australia speaking to its value. One guy said if I was charging 10x what I was for 3.0, it'd still be a bargain. Another guy pointed out that if people ate 1 page of The BP/day, they'd gladly buy another copy when their current "supply" ran out.
I should be swayed by you telling me some guy thinks it's worth $1000?

You see man, information is power.
And therefore i should give you $100?



Your BS meter, b/c I wouldn't link? I'm supposed to do the work for you, the work/studies I dug up over the past 20 years then undoubtedly have to debate you in how you interpret them? The ones I had PAID to have translated from Russian/Hungarian into English?

Those are the studies you want links for?
.
Studies are publically available online. You just reference them. I can decide if i want to pay the journal for access. I can decide if the study relevant enough to warrant $100+ on a product. Not you; a stranger who as a salesman has an incentive to lie. Google translate is this amazing free service btw.

Funny because even sketchy business' pay for and publish their own studies in order to provide it to prospective customers.

"Mother nature doesn't fuk up"
That comment tripped your BS meter, did it? You weren't swift enough to understand it wasn't a blanket statement that includes poisonous mushrooms, etc? You know what? I'm going to let you find out the hard way, waste thousands of dollars and more importantly time - time you'll never get back.
It has no meaning whatsoever. Complete BS no matter how you define any of the words.

But please explain exactly what you meant.

Such a statement has no place in a legitimate sales pitch.



There are other, well meaning people here that want to learn. They've already PM'd me.
Please quote something from your posts that i can learn from.

Next person that PM's me with your "BS meter" drivel
The irony of you using "drivel"

Go ahead brother, I want you to ask on this board and/or ANY other around the world: "Is Cyanotis Vaga a good source of Ecdy"? Any board in the world.
Wow you're using all the sleazy tools. Deflection (dr's pushing drugs), meaningless soundbites (mother nature doesn't fuk up. Natures fingerprint!), and now not for the first time Ignoratio elenchi !

Who asked "Is Cyanotis Vaga a good source of Ecdy" ? !!!

all ecdysteroids are not equal. Evidence of effectiveness is relevant. Source is not. Percentage of active ingredient is not financially relevant even; only price per mg of it is (within practical application). Effectiveness of delivery methods is also.

You sir have not even provided an alternative ecdysteroid to 20H. You have suggested we give you money for info about a herb that has not been studied enough to know what active ingredients it has (is it even an ecdysteroid!) and have pointed to no evidence to show it works at all. Let alone better than 20H.

If it isn't obvious to everyone (evidently it's not) Warning : SNAKE OIL SALESMAN!!!!!
 

kissdadookie

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Quote the post

It is more than clear i was referring to the cost of this herb that you're advising me to buy with mother natures unfukable special fingerprint that you don't know what the active ingredient is.



Then why did you offer me "something priceless" instead which turned out to be calculators that evidently have a price.




I should be swayed by you telling me some guy thinks it's worth $1000?



And therefore i should give you $100?





Studies are publically available online. You just reference them. I can decide if i want to pay the journal for access. I can decide if the study relevant enough to warrant $100+ on a product. Not you; a stranger who as a salesman has an incentive to lie. Google translate is this amazing free service btw.

Funny because even sketchy business' pay for and publish their own studies in order to provide it to prospective customers.



It has no meaning whatsoever. Complete BS no matter how you define any of the words.

But please explain exactly what you meant.

Such a statement has no place in a legitimate sales pitch.





Please quote something from your posts that i can learn from.



The irony of you using "drivel"



Wow you're using all the sleazy tools. Deflection (dr's pushing drugs), meaningless soundbites (mother nature doesn't fuk up. Natures fingerprint!), and now not for the first time Ignoratio elenchi !

Who asked "Is Cyanotis Vaga a good source of Ecdy" ? !!!

all ecdysteroids are not equal. Evidence of effectiveness is relevant. Source is not. Percentage of active ingredient is not financially relevant even; only price per mg of it is (within practical application). Effectiveness of delivery methods is also.

You sir have not even provided an alternative ecdysteroid to 20H. You have suggested we give you money for info about a herb that has not been studied enough to know what active ingredients it has (is it even an ecdysteroid!) and have pointed to no evidence to show it works at all. Let alone better than 20H.

If it isn't obvious to everyone (evidently it's not) Warning : SNAKE OIL SALESMAN!!!!!
You're considering high dosing ecdy, one of the most questionable and debatable things in the supplement world, and yet you are pointing fingers at someone for being a snake oil salesman? If you fear being conned by a snake oil salesman, wtf are you doing contemplating high dosing ecdy?

Btw, anabolica is probably the first and last laxo product that was possibly effective. So that suggestion by Mixel was not him trying to pull a fast one on your at all.
 

lukyo

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dude.. the guy was tryin to help you. and offered to give you a training calculator for FREE, and somehow you insist he wants money. the calculator is specific to his adaptogen products which fall in line with this thread. youre being an idiot for no reason. he tells you that the CV product youre asking about is junk and you argue with him. im pretty sure you don't know but mixle is THE authority on this subject when it comes to these and other like forums. im not saying I agree with him either but I can comprehend what hes saying, something you seem unable to do.
No he wants me to give him money.

Not a training calculator. A herbal "loading" calculator for a product.

I didn't ask about a CV product.

The authority on what subject?

Could you comprehend what "natures fingerprint" means? Please tell me and show me what it's relevant to. I'm interested in facts regarding substances.
 

lukyo

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You're considering high dosing ecdy, one of the most questionable and debatable things in the supplement world, and yet you are pointing fingers at someone for being a snake oil salesman? If you fear being conned by a snake oil salesman, wtf are you doing contemplating high dosing ecdy?

Btw, anabolica is probably the first and last laxo product that was possibly effective. So that suggestion by Mixel was not him trying to pull a fast one on your at all.
High dosing?!!? Define high for me since actual studies have established toxicity at 9g per 1kg of bodyweight in mammals. I plan on taking 0.15% of that....

"one of the most questionable and debatable things in the supplement world" where have you got this idea from? Taking certain mainstream supplements would be more questionable since amino spiking came to light.

Since i'm not selling anything, asking for money, suggesting anybody spend any anywhere or even making any sort of claims why shouldn't i point to him as a snakeoil salesman? Since he's doing all of those.
 

kissdadookie

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High dosing?!!? Define high for me since actual studies have established toxicity at 9g per 1kg of bodyweight in mammals. I plan on taking 0.15% of that....

"one of the most questionable and debatable things in the supplement world" where have you got this idea from? Taking certain mainstream supplements would be more questionable since amino spiking came to light.
Have you even bothered looking at ecdy studies? They are questionable and there's not that much research there to look at to begin with. You stated you were going to take 1200 mg's, that's 1.2 grams of ecdy. Commercial ecdy products are dosed @ like 25 mgs per serving. It has nothing to do with toxicity when I mentioned you high dosing ecdy.

I am also not claiming that mainstream supplements are all good to go, one still has to do their research but let's be honest here shall we? Data behind things like creatine, beta alanine, protein, recently phosphatidic acid and HMB-FA (along with 20 some odd years of HMB study in general), etc. ALL trump the data available on ecdy.

Where the heck did you get the idea from that ecdy somehow has a comparable amount of data backing it?
 

lukyo

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Have you even bothered looking at ecdy studies? They are questionable and there's not that much research there to look at to begin with. You stated you were going to take 1200 mg's, that's 1.2 grams of ecdy. Commercial ecdy products are dosed @ like 25 mgs per serving. It has nothing to do with toxicity when I mentioned you high dosing ecdy.

I am also not claiming that mainstream supplements are all good to go, one still has to do their research but let's be honest here shall we? Data behind things like creatine, beta alanine, protein, recently phosphatidic acid and HMB-FA (along with 20 some odd years of HMB study in general), etc. ALL trump the data available on ecdy.

Where the heck did you get the idea from that ecdy somehow has a comparable amount of data backing it?
Clearly you haven't. The studies on ecdy are not questionable. None of them suggest any sort of model to be used in humans with goals of muscle gain or make claims to it's effectiveness in humans in any form of administration.


The therapeutic window is an objective standard to judge what is a "high" dose. Not unregulated supplement companies.

Where the heck did you get the idea that i think ecdy has comparable data to creatine!!!!!!
 

kissdadookie

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Clearly you haven't. The studies on ecdy are not questionable. None of them suggest any sort of model to be used in humans with goals of muscle gain or make claims to it's effectiveness in humans in any form of administration.


The therapeutic window is an objective standard to judge what is a "high" dose. Not unregulated supplement companies.

Where the heck did you get the idea that i think ecdy has comparable data to creatine!!!!!!
The fact that you followed my comment about ecdy having questionable with your comment comment about "mainstream" supps implies that you saw no difference in data backing up "mainstream" supps compared to ecdy studies.

Also, the ecdy studies are questionable. First of all, there's very few of them. Second of all, it doesn't appear that they have figured out much of a MOA for it. Third of all, majority of the information essentially are stemming from the same few references.

So let's go back a little bit shall we? This is what you are stating now:

"None of them suggest any sort of model to be used in humans with goals of muscle gain or make claims to it's effectiveness in humans in any form of administration."

How does this not suggest the data being questionable? You are a human and considering taking ecdy are you not? You didn't randomly just close your eyes and run your finger down a random list of compounds and end up on ecdy and went "Ok, let's give this chit a shot!" did you? So you considering taking ecdy is based on you having looked up data for it yes? So for something that is so not very well understood in terms of what it does in the human body yet you are considering taking it, how is this not a compound with questionable/debatable data? Especially when there's such little amount of data available for it and what is there is stemming mostly from a single quite obscure source.

You points in this thread and your seemingly foil hat syndrome towards the supplement industry is beyond comprehension here. You have seemingly poo poo'd the supplement industry yet find it perfectly ok to go ingest 1200 mg's of ecdy a day based on very little actual data on ecdy.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that your ecdy experiment there is good or bad or that you should or shouldn't embark on your ecdy adventure, but mainly I just find it completely asinine that you are being completely arbitrary with what you choose to be good ecdy info and what isn't, considering that there is so little data in general on ecdy to begin with and practically non-existant in terms of being used in humans. So for something that is lacking in data to back it, it's astounding how you are going around bashing others whom are trying to provide you with more information. Let's say that Mixel did offer to help you and charge you a fee of $100, there's no need for you to come on here and start bashing him. There's already so little info on ecdy, who cares if someone tries to profit on sharing the info? You're a effen consumer, just politely decline the offer, DONE.
 
ELROCK

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One last thing, before I head out to train people.

Thermolife, MASS, Tonovara and IForce all use RCE in their products vs. CV (or some other crap).

That tell you anything?
Supreme Sports
Enhancement Omnibolic....looks like a good one. What do you think Mixelflick?
 

lukyo

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The fact that you followed my comment about ecdy having questionable with your comment comment about "mainstream" supps implies that you saw no difference in data backing up "mainstream" supps compared to ecdy studies.

Also, the ecdy studies are questionable. First of all, there's very few of them. Second of all, it doesn't appear that they have figured out much of a MOA for it. Third of all, majority of the information essentially are stemming from the same few references.

So let's go back a little bit shall we? This is what you are stating now:

"None of them suggest any sort of model to be used in humans with goals of muscle gain or make claims to it's effectiveness in humans in any form of administration."

How does this not suggest the data being questionable? You are a human and considering taking ecdy are you not? You didn't randomly just close your eyes and run your finger down a random list of compounds and end up on ecdy and went "Ok, let's give this chit a shot!" did you? So you considering taking ecdy is based on you having looked up data for it yes? So for something that is so not very well understood in terms of what it does in the human body yet you are considering taking it, how is this not a compound with questionable/debatable data? Especially when there's such little amount of data available for it and what is there is stemming mostly from a single quite obscure source.

You points in this thread and your seemingly foil hat syndrome towards the supplement industry is beyond comprehension here. You have seemingly poo poo'd the supplement industry yet find it perfectly ok to go ingest 1200 mg's of ecdy a day based on very little actual data on ecdy.
You seriously need to make a logical connection between my comment about supplement companies who have been exposed amino spiking and claiming i've compared ecdy data to data on creatine.

First of all having very few studies does not make their data questionable. The quality of the study determines that. Extrapolating from said data is questionable. "Majority of information from same few studies" is irrelevant. The total information from all of the studies available is relevant. How much is commonly used to form an opinion has nothing to do with anything. And yes they have found one. Since i can't post links just google "Estrogen receptor beta is involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy induced by the phytoecdysteroid ecdysterone." to get the pubmed

Even if there wasn't toxicity would be primary concern.

, how is this not a compound with questionable/debatable data? Especially when there's such little amount of data
It's not logically consistent to equate little data with questionable data and then make a distinction between the two here.

So you considering taking ecdy is based on you having looked up data for it yes?
No.
Like most people i make decisions by weighing up possible risks with possible benefits against my subjective value of those possible benefits.

stemming mostly from a single quite obscure source.
What are you talking about?

Foil hat syndrome! ha where have you found that?! poo poo'd the supplement industry? Where have i made a comment about the industry? Please quote.

I also don't get the contradiction between distrust of the supplement industry (if i had one) and using independent studies to decide on my supplementation.
 

kissdadookie

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You seriously need to make a logical connection between my comment about supplement companies who have been exposed amino spiking and claiming i've compared ecdy data to data on creatine.

First of all having very few studies does not make their data questionable. The quality of the study determines that. Extrapolating from said data is questionable. "Majority of information from same few studies" is irrelevant. The information from the all of the studies available is what it is. How much is commonly used to form an opinion has nothing to do with anything. And yes they have found one. Since i can't post links just google "Estrogen receptor beta is involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy induced by the phytoecdysteroid ecdysterone." to get the pubmed

Even if there wasn't toxicity would be primary concern.


It's not logically consistent to equate little data with questionable data and then make a distinction between the two here.


No.
Like most people i make decisions by weighing up possible risks with possible benefits against my subjective value of those possible benefits.


What are you talking about?

Foil hat syndrome! ha where have you found that?! poo poo'd the supplement industry? Where have i made a comment about the industry? Please quote.

I also don't get the contradiction between distrust of the supplement industry (if i had one) and using scientific data to decide on my supplementation.
What does amino spiking have to do with compounds having very little data to back them up?

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your nonsense because the fact that you brought up amino spiking, twice now, as a response to my comment that ecdy has very very very little data to back it up is more than enough to demonstrate 1) your disliking of the supplement industry and 2) you basically don't have a argument to begin with and just deflecting and have been deflecting for several posts now.

I mean, I point out the lack of data behind ecdy and then you pull the ole "don't look here, look over there!" ruse by bringing up amino spiking. LULZ.
 

lukyo

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What does amino spiking have to do with compounds having very little data to back them up?

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your nonsense because the fact that you brought up amino spiking, twice now, as a response to my comment that ecdy has very very very little data to back it up is more than enough to demonstrate 1) your disliking of the supplement industry and 2) you basically don't have a argument to begin with and just deflecting and have been deflecting for several posts now.

I mean, I point out the lack of data behind ecdy and then you pull the ole "don't look here, look over there!" ruse by bringing up amino spiking. LULZ.
You're a riot.

Reading comprehension has been an issue for you obviously.

I brought it up once to help you with the definition of "questionable" in which i referenced without naming a pair of renowned companies. Somehow i have an issue with the supplement industry as a whole...

If only that was you're point!; that ecdy has little data.....

what contribution did you make to this topic? Defining what a "high dose" is using what? Essentially saying " don't call him a snakeoil salesman! Because you're taking a high dose of what he says doesn't work!" So glad you jumped in to defend this guy, his business plan and his awful & meaningless soundbites.

"I just find it completely asinine that you are being completely arbitrary with what you choose to be good ecdy info and what isn't"
What thread have you been reading? What did i suggest is good ecdy material? I remember pointing out BS from a salesman wanting $$$ for a special e-book actually claiming it isn't the ecdy that's working.
 

kissdadookie

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You're a riot.

Reading comprehension has been an issue for you obviously.

I brought it up once to help you with the definition of "questionable" in which i referenced without naming a pair of renowned companies. Somehow i have an issue with the supplement industry as a whole...

If only you're point was ecdy has little data..... what contribution did you make to this topic? Defining what a "high dose" is using what? Essentially saying " don't call him a snakeoil salesman! Because you're taking a high dose of what he says doesn't work!" So glad you jumped in to defend this guy, his business plan and his awful & meaningless soundbites.

"I just find it completely asinine that you are being completely arbitrary with what you choose to be good ecdy info and what isn't"
What thread have you been reading? What did i suggest is good ecdy material? I remember pointing out BS from a salesman wanting $$$ for a special e-book actually claiming it isn't the ecdy that's working.
So essentially you're just pissed off that somebody didn't offer you info for free. Gotcha.
 

lukyo

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So essentially you're just pissed off that somebody didn't offer you info for free. Gotcha.
Essentially you can't read or have a short memory.

I'm not angry. I didn't involve myself in a conversation i wasn't apart of.

I didn't want his info/BS. I wouldn't give him my email in order to prevent him sending me anything. Especially since when he asked for it he didn't identify himself as a businessman.
 

kissdadookie

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Essentially you can't read or have a short memory.

I'm not angry. I didn't involve myself in a conversation i wasn't apart of.

I didn't want his info/BS. I wouldn't give him my email in order to prevent him sending me anything. Especially since when he asked for it he didn't identify himself as a businessman.
Yup, still pissed off that somebody had the audacity to offer you info in exchange for money. It's cool bro.
 

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Yup, still pissed off that somebody had the audacity to offer you info in exchange for money. It's cool bro.

Still pissed off i called someone out for trying to send me bull**** i didn't want. It's cool bru, no need to help me or him anymore. Go back to your lifeguard tower.
 

kissdadookie

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Still pissed off i called someone out for trying to send me bull**** i didn't want. It's cool bru, no need to help me or him anymore. Go back to your lifeguard tower.
It's alright bro. I wish I sat at a lifeguard tower, but that would probably mean I need to learn how to swim first.
 

lukyo

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It's alright bro. I wish I sat at a lifeguard tower, but that would probably mean I need to learn how to swim first.
Must be TSA then. Or something that encourages that annoying trait which gives them a sense they have the right to interfere and poke around in other peoples business.
 

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