Conflicting Information on AM...

[mikespe]

I have read many times on this forum (and on other forums) that a protein blend consisting of both Whey & casein is the best protein to ingest. To be honest, I have always felt that is the correct choice to make because of the slower digestion of casein, as well as the faster absorption of whey (usually isolates)...but unfortunately for me, it has been tough finding a blend that won't inflame my lactose intolerance (PES Select has been good & I just tried OxyElite Protein today & so far it seems fine as well)

However, in today's AM Newsletter this article was included: How Much Protein Do You Need? - AnabolicMinds.com written by Charles Poliquin...If you look at #3 it states that whey alone is the better choice over a blend because casein is an "inferior" protein (not my words...quoted from the article)...

Now I know at least 99% of you will disagree with the author on this issue and can probably provide reseach to debunk Mr. Poliquin's claim...so why would the AM editors include this article if a blend really is better? With PES & OxyElite being to of the more talked about proteins on this forum you would think at the very least a disclaimer would be included in the article...

Thanks for any information you can provide either way....and please let's keep this a peaceful debate. There seems to be a few "hostile" debates lately on various topics. We are all here to learn & achieve our muscular goals!!!

 

[Admin]

We include it because its a new article. Thats all. We don't have editors nor do we endorse any opinion at all. We simply provide viewpoints. We don't write anything.

 

[cbsharpe]

Honestly, it comes to preference. Sometimes I take in whey alone and other and most times, I use a blend. Bottom line is that it's all about hitting your macros.
I'm not going to lose any sleep over any protein debate...LOL!! That's for sure but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I favor blends over whey but again, there are times when I only take in whey.

 

[JudoJosh]

Poliquin is a dip****. He is now a woo writer who misrepresents data and twist things to fit his narrative. He is quite frankly the Mercola equivalent in the fitness realm. Almost as bad as the Food Babe

 

[Raw Dog]

If you're that concerned with the minuscule differences then you should probably opt for whole food sources instead anyway. Powders are a convenience; and while most new research tends to point to blends being superior, I don't think anyone would argue that they are better than meat. Just my .02, seems pointless to stress over.

 

[Rodja]

Think of it this way: both whey and casein are proteins found within milk. Why whey be superior, but casein inferior? It doesn't make any sense that one fraction would be amazing and the other be crap.

 

[mikespe]

If you're that concerned with the minuscule differences then you should probably opt for whole food sources instead anyway. Powders are a convenience; and while most new research tends to point to blends being superior, I don't think anyone would argue that they are better than meat. Just my .02, seems pointless to stress over.

Who is stressing or concerned? I just started a debate...please don't twist my words

 

[Tbol]

Personally, different proteins for different needs. And or times. .02

 

[Raw Dog]

Think of it this way: both whey and casein are proteins found within milk. Why whey be superior, but casein inferior? It doesn't make any sense that one fraction would be amazing and the other be crap.

But who was sucrose and fructose in peaches

 

[Raw Dog]

Who is stressing or concerned? I just started a debate...please don't twist my words

"You" in that context was intended to be more of a general term, not targeting anyone out individually. This was just my opinion on the matter.

 

[mikespe]

"You" in that context was intended to be more of a general term, not targeting anyone out individually. This was just my opinion on the matter.

My apologies...

 

[Rodja]

But who was sucrose and fructose in peaches

No sucrose in peaches.

 

[Raw Dog]

No sucrose in peaches.

U wot

http://journal.ashspublications.org/content/118/1/97.full.pdf

Excuse the 20 year old study, at work on my iPad. Not that this is relevant or the original topic, but I do think it was comparable to the protein statement you made.

 

[Rodja]

Sugars and proteins are not comparable macros.

Regarding sucrose in peaches, that was an error on my part.

 

[Bryancap77]

AM isn't biased, and new scientific research is continually teaching us new things as well as contradicting prior beliefs... So I think it would be ridiculous for AM to not include an article simply because it states a different opinion than the current majority. It's all conjecture at some point

 

[JD261985]

One thing that I've learned about bodybuilding and nutrition is that for every 5 things you think you know there are 5 other things that say differently. Even worse, plenty of viewpoints have data to back both view points up and even worse than that is that broscience is often represented as factual information. You just gotta absorb what you can, take at least everything you read with a grain of salt and keep it simple so you don't spontaneously combust

 

[mr.cooper69]

Please don't take poliquin's advice for supplementation. Training, sure. But supplementation: he recommends several unhealthy protocols (megadosing fish oil), touts supplements that are known to be bunk, and of course, he thinks whey is superior to a blend when everything shows otherwise

 

[JudoJosh]

Dont forget, he is also of the, LISS cardio kills gains, camp (where he misrepresents data but citing studies on long distance endurance athletes and [attempts to] extrapolate to strength athletes.

I would just ignore him completely

 

[Jiigzz]

Dont forget, he is also of the, LISS cardio kills gains, camp (where he misrepresents data but citing studies on long distance endurance athletes and [attempts to] extrapolate to strength athletes.

I would just ignore him completely

Lol.

Poor charles

 

[throneof]

Whey protein concentrate recommended 60 min preworkout? Been doing that with a bowl of cream of wheat lately. Wasn't sure if the faster WPI would be better advised...

 

[bolt10]

Lol.

Poor charles

More like rich Charles.

 

[Young Gotti]

lol i'll sit back and drink my Isotean as people lose their mind over someone stating something that they disagree with

 

[chris223]

lol i'll sit back and drink my Isotean as people lose their mind over someone stating something that they disagree with

No one seems to be losing their mind in this thread. Just calm discussion and people giving reasons to explain why they feel a certain way. Pretty damn rational.

 

[amarula]

Dont forget, he is also of the, LISS cardio kills gains, camp (where he misrepresents data but citing studies on long distance endurance athletes and [attempts to] extrapolate to strength athletes.

I would just ignore him completely

His training advice, is, generally very good, but I also think that his supp advice is, generally, outdated

 

[HIT4ME]

Honestly, I think people look at details and miss the point around proteins. You should be taking in high quality proteins throughout the day to keep your nitrogen levels high throughout the day. This means diet is most important. When you think about it, who cares how fast a protein digests once you've got your levels up and then eat regularly enough to keep them up. If a protein takes 3 hours to digest and I eat every 3-4 hours, then once I'm up there, I will constantly have protein ready when my body needs it.

Now, around training, I like to take some kind of protein shake during/after with some form of quick digesting protein. I'm not sure I've noticed that big a difference between lower quality proteins, higher quality proteins, whey isolates, whey concentrates, milk protein isolates, casein, etc. The biggest difference is enjoyment of the shake - the "better" proteins also tend to have the better flavors/textures, but not always.

What has impressed me recently is Pepto Pro, which is expensive, but I take a half scoop in some crystal light while I'm training and then take my normal protein shake for 25-50 grams of protein (usually a mix of some sort) and my DOMS the next day has been dramatically reduced. I normally train relatively breif and heavy to failure and beyond and I will be unable to walk, use my arms, etc. for a day or two after and the pain is noticeable. Since I started adding in the pepto pro, I wake up the next morning with VERY minor pain at most, and my muscles feel tired and almost as if they are pumped and have just been worked, but by the end of the day they feel almost completely recovered.

 

[mr.cooper69]

lol i'll sit back and drink my Isotean as people lose their mind over someone stating something that they disagree with

Who's losing their mind? And we as individuals are not "disagreeing" with him. This isn't our "opinion." We're just stating what all the research shows.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

so why would the AM editors include this article if a blend really is better? With PES & OxyElite being to of the more talked about proteins on this forum you would think at the very least a disclaimer would be included in the article...

what - you want biased information that caters only to sponsored companies on this forum?
be glad that is not the case..

Who's losing their mind? And we as individuals are not "disagreeing" with him. This isn't our "opinion." We're just stating what all the research shows.

lol...well, I wouldn't exactly use the phrase "losing their minds" there..
however, you and josh are both airing opinions about him on a personal level, not limiting your statement to facts about "research" (as contradictory as "facts" and "research" spoken in the same breath are to begin with....)

as indicated below:

Poliquin is a dip****. He is now a woo writer who misrepresents data and twist things to fit his narrative. He is quite frankly the Mercola equivalent in the fitness realm. Almost as bad as the Food Babe

Dont forget, he is also of the, LISS cardio kills gains, camp (where he misrepresents data but citing studies on long distance endurance athletes and [attempts to] extrapolate to strength athletes.

I would just ignore him completely

Please don't take poliquin's advice for supplementation. Training, sure. But supplementation: he recommends several unhealthy protocols (megadosing fish oil), touts supplements that are known to be bunk, and of course, he thinks whey is superior to a blend when everything shows otherwise

as for his mega-dosing fish oil: yeah the protocol may be a little hair-brained, but I have yet to hear of anybody who has done this (and surely there have been a large number) having any adverse side effects, despite your alarmist claims on this practice over the yrs


not trying to incite a riot or anything gents..
am I a poliquin fan myself? no
but let's keep things real

 

[mase1]

Protein is protein, please don't think you will notice slabs of muscle using any of the new fancy blends. They are better but not enough to notice a difference.

 

[Type O Hero]

Protein is protein, please don't think you will notice slabs of muscle using any of the new fancy blends. They are better but not enough to notice a difference.

False.

There are an innumerable amount of different proteins. Each type of protein has a certain amino acid profile. Your post screams ignorance. Just use Google and query 'proteins.'

Don't get your info from gym bros.

 

[hewhoisripped]

Whey has more leucine and is broken down faster thus is superior in terms of MPS. You really don't want a constant supply of protein (as casein provides), it can create a refractory response (basically down regulating mps). On the other hand casein fills you up, works much better in some recepies, etc. It's also more expensive. So in real life, I use whey 99% of the time and before bed (just to keep me from waking up hungry) or cooking sometimes I'll use casein.

 

[T-Bone]

Any questions?

 

[mase1]

If you think you will see a discernable difference between protein you are ignorant. You must be one of those guys lined up to buy these new blends, "I am going to get huge!" Oh yeah, ex phys cscs.

 

[Montego1]

Sources of protein should vary.......as stated earlier, because of the amino acid profiles of each source firstly.

But also in whole foods, fat content, high creatine content in red meat and so on and so forth come into play. Saying all protein is equal is like saying you can get all of your protein every day from whey concentrate and will develop just as well as if you use whole foods in addition.....It's just not true.

 

[mikespe]

Any questions?

I have a question....Steak & Eggs while training for a bodybuilding show? Kind of hard to get lean with all that extra fat....however, as a source of protein for everyday use I wholeheartedly agree with you!!

 

[T-Bone]

I have a question....Steak & Eggs while training for a bodybuilding show? Kind of hard to get lean with all that extra fat....however, as a source of protein for everyday use I wholeheartedly agree with you!!

Eating fat doesn't make you fat. Besides I don't like bodybuilding.

 

[mikespe]

Eating fat doesn't make you fat. Besides I don't like bodybuilding.

LOL well I do like bodybuilding...and no fat doesn't make you fat...trust me I preach those words DAILY to my students and coworkers! My point was that the added fat also increases caloric intake as well as makes it challenging to get more healthy fats into your diet. Plus a lean cut of steak is a LOT more expensive than several chicken breasts. So you still didn't answer my question...

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I have a question....Steak & Eggs while training for a bodybuilding show? Kind of hard to get lean with all that extra fat....

I could create a prep diet where you consume steak regularly, with combination of whole egg + some egg whites, and eat that every day.. not even a problem
now granted - going that approach would require some (short) time towards the end where steak & yolk would be removed from the menu, but for the most part absolutely this can be done thruout the majority of the process

but - if we are talking bodybuilding prep to begin with here then - there is a faction of ppl (myself included) who believe that any protein powders are counter-productive to the prepping process, and so I as well as my trainees eliminate all powders at this time....sometimes, depending on the individual, I may keep powders in for convenience at the beginning, but they are long gone by the time we get to even the midway point, and I personally use NO powders during prep at any time

 

[mikespe]

I could create a prep diet where you consume steak regularly, with combination of whole egg + some egg whites, and eat that every day.. not even a problem
now granted - going that approach would require some (short) time towards the end where steak & yolk would be removed from the menu, but for the most part absolutely this can be done

but - if we are talking bodybuilding prep then - there is a faction of ppl (myself included) who believe that any protein powders are counter-productive to the prepping process, and so I as well as my trainees eliminate all powders at this time....sometimes, depending on the individual, I may keep powders in for convenience at the beginning, but they are long gone by the time we get to even the midway point, and I personally use NO powders duriong prep at any time

I totally agree with your statement...and of course you could create a diet that includes steak...but I know for me I like at least SOME variety during contest prep & like to get my fats from multiple sources. I would have to portion the steak to be a teaser (which would suck since I love steak!!). As for powders...I cut them out about 5 weeks out & substitute egg whites in it's place.

 

[nattydisaster]

I have read many times on this forum (and on other forums) that a protein blend consisting of both Whey & casein is the best protein to ingest. To be honest, I have always felt that is the correct choice to make because of the slower digestion of casein, as well as the faster absorption of whey (usually isolates)...but unfortunately for me, it has been tough finding a blend that won't inflame my lactose intolerance (PES Select has been good & I just tried OxyElite Protein today & so far it seems fine as well)

However, in today's AM Newsletter this article was included: How Much Protein Do You Need? - AnabolicMinds.com written by Charles Poliquin...If you look at #3 it states that whey alone is the better choice over a blend because casein is an "inferior" protein (not my words...quoted from the article)...

Now I know at least 99% of you will disagree with the author on this issue and can probably provide reseach to debunk Mr. Poliquin's claim...so why would the AM editors include this article if a blend really is better? With PES & OxyElite being to of the more talked about proteins on this forum you would think at the very least a disclaimer would be included in the article...

Thanks for any information you can provide either way....and please let's keep this a peaceful debate. There seems to be a few "hostile" debates lately on various topics. We are all here to learn & achieve our muscular goals!!!

Maybe he forgot to read the countless human studies on a blend of whey and casein being superior to whey only...

http://SelectProtein.com explains most of them. Even with all the ones explained there, there's still more out there

 

[kbayne]

what - you want biased information that caters only to sponsored companies on this forum? be glad that is not the case.. lol...well, I wouldn't exactly use the phrase "losing their minds" there.. however, you and josh are both airing opinions about him on a personal level, not limiting your statement to facts about "research" (as contradictory as "facts" and "research" spoken in the same breath are to begin with....) as indicated below: as for his mega-dosing fish oil: yeah the protocol may be a little hair-brained, but I have yet to hear of anybody who has done this (and surely there have been a large number) having any adverse side effects, despite your alarmist claims on this practice over the yrs not trying to incite a riot or anything gents.. am I a poliquin fan myself? no but let's keep things real

I know Matt Porter tried mega dosing Fish Oil to experiment for a while. Wasn't a good idea according to him. There's an article out there about it if anyone is interested.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I know Matt Porter tried mega dosing Fish Oil to experiment for a while. Wasn't a good idea according to him. There's an article out there about it if anyone is interested.

sure I'm aware of Matt's endeavor - I too tried it myself, hit ~30-35g fish oil daily for a good while..never saw anything worthwhile nor notable except less money to spend on other stuff lol, but at same time I had zero negative effects that I was aware of

simply put, my point being: some ppl tend to get overzealous in their stance against some specific protocol or idea, and in so doing they go to extremes and great lengths to state opposing info and paint a picture of "potentially dangerous" hazards --- when there really is no such real life example to point to or offer proof that they are correct in their particular assessment

theoretically, perhaps point has some validity - and I get the whole deal on exaggerated PUFA intake vitamin E correlation and all other "negatives" associated with it in general, generic discussion.....practicality and reality however is whole nother issue

 

[mr.cooper69]

In the case of fish oil, overdoing it is absolutely negative for your health. It's not like the vitamin studies that are just observational studies. Fish oil has trials, it's a clinically approved drug. We know for a fact that megadosing it will be detrimental to your health.

Here's a nice article: http://chriskresser.com/when-it-comes-to-fish-oil-more-is-not-better

 

[cbsharpe]

In the case of fish oil, overdoing it is absolutely negative for your health. It's not like the vitamin studies that are just observational studies. Fish oil has trials, it's a clinically approved drug. We know for a fact that megadosing it will be detrimental to your health.

Here's a nice article: http://chriskresser.com/when-it-comes-to-fish-oil-more-is-not-better

Hey Coop...I see he recommends taking Cod Live oil. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[mr.cooper69]

He's just recommending it as a good source of fat-soluble vitamins...you probably get enough through diet and definitely enough if you take a good multi too

 

[cbsharpe]

He's just recommending it as a good source of fat-soluble vitamins...you probably get enough through diet and definitely enough if you take a good multi too

Roger that! Thanks Coop!

 

[ELROCK]

sure I'm aware of Matt's endeavor - I too tried it myself, hit ~30-35g fish oil daily for a good while..never saw anything worthwhile nor notable except less money to spend on other stuff lol, but at same time I had zero negative effects that I was aware of

simply put, my point being: some ppl tend to get overzealous in their stance against some specific protocol or idea, and in so doing they go to extremes and great lengths to state opposing info and paint a picture of "potentially dangerous" hazards --- when there really is no such real life example to point to or offer proof that they are correct in their particular assessment

theoretically, perhaps point has some validity - and I get the whole deal on exaggerated PUFA intake vitamin E correlation and all other "negatives" associated with it in general, generic discussion.....practicality and reality however is whole nother issue

I understand your point, but why did you try a 30-35g daily protocol? What were your hopes to get out of it?

 

[Blergs]

I have read many times on this forum (and on other forums) that a protein blend consisting of both Whey & casein is the best protein to ingest. To be honest, I have always felt that is the correct choice to make because of the slower digestion of casein, as well as the faster absorption of whey (usually isolates)...but unfortunately for me, it has been tough finding a blend that won't inflame my lactose intolerance (PES Select has been good & I just tried OxyElite Protein today & so far it seems fine as well)

However, in today's AM Newsletter this article was included: How Much Protein Do You Need? - AnabolicMinds.com written by Charles Poliquin...If you look at #3 it states that whey alone is the better choice over a blend because casein is an "inferior" protein (not my words...quoted from the article)...

Now I know at least 99% of you will disagree with the author on this issue and can probably provide reseach to debunk Mr. Poliquin's claim...so why would the AM editors include this article if a blend really is better? With PES & OxyElite being to of the more talked about proteins on this forum you would think at the very least a disclaimer would be included in the article...

Thanks for any information you can provide either way....and please let's keep this a peaceful debate. There seems to be a few "hostile" debates lately on various topics. We are all here to learn & achieve our muscular goals!!!

when you mix the fast anf slow the fast is slowed down , so now you have med-slow protein... you get better gains/results from sharp amino acid spikes in the blood and fast protein like whey iso, is better option for this. i much rather have 6 sharp spiked of aminos then 2-3 slow digesting drinks... unless you are in a triathlon or srsly cutting your food for cutting, I would rec fast protein. or at the very least not mixed, have your fast, then an 1hr later your slow if you really want... the 4 or w/e blend of fast and slow is over hype and actually less effective for muscle gains IMO

 

[hewhoisripped]

when you mix the fast anf slow the fast is slowed down , so now you have med-slow protein... you get better gains/results from sharp amino acid spikes in the blood and fast protein like whey iso, is better option for this. i much rather have 6 sharp spiked of aminos then 2-3 slow digesting drinks... unless you are in a triathlon or srsly cutting your food for cutting, I would rec fast protein. or at the very least not mixed, have your fast, then an 1hr later your slow if you really want... the 4 or w/e blend of fast and slow is over hype and actually less effective for muscle gains IMO

Only time I really recommend slow is at night. Not because it's superior for gains or anything, simply because I could eat a pound of iso before bed and still wake up starving in 4h and not be able to go back to sleep. Half a tub of greek and some all bran keeps me full all night.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I understand your point, but why did you try a 30-35g daily protocol? What were your hopes to get out of it?

it just seemed like all the cool guys were doing it, so thought maybe it would work for me.. :dunno:

I jest -- was the method proposed by poliquin, so I gave it a shot

when you mix the fast anf slow the fast is slowed down , so now you have med-slow protein...

no - you simply have two different proteins with different absorption rates...the slow does not "slow" the fast

 

[T-Bone]

If I eat eggs while lying upside down in a chair will it make the eggs covert directly to muscle tissue?.