Tongkat Ali

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  1. The boron or tongkat ali causes estrogen?
    Mentally Unstable - Divided Mind


  2. Tongkat should reduce estrogen, boron should raise it
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Tongkat should reduce estrogen, boron should raise it
    I cant imagine an AI would be needed for Viron, they cancel one another out. I'm on the fence as to try 2 caps or stick with 1

    What say you @mr.cooper69?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Joshlm69 View Post
    I cant imagine an AI would be needed for Viron, they cancel one another out. I'm on the fence as to try 2 caps or stick with 1

    What say you @mr.cooper69?
    I cannot comment on BLR products, but in terms of boron vs tongkat, the estrogen raising effect of boron is much more significant than the estrogen lowering effect of tongkat. A good dose of boron citrate is 200mg (yielding 10mg boron) and a good dose of tongkat is 200mg of LJ100

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Joshlm69 View Post
    I cant imagine an AI would be needed for Viron
    Tongkat/Boron supplement
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  6. Yo Coop, can you post up where you get that? I've taken Boron for many years and never have had an increase in estrogen based on labs, which would match up with a more recent study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21129941. I understand that previous studies done with lower amounts 2.5mg and 5mg saw an increase in estrogen and test, but that when higher amounts are administered, free test goes up significantly, estrogen lowers, and DHT goes up. Not saying that it could not raise estrogen in some, but want to keep an open mind about what is being said and what I personally have found.

    I'd like to read up more if you have articles that say otherwise. Thanks!

  7. Havent seen that Tongkat Ali reduces estrogen just that it boosts T and Boron can increase estrogen conversion. Seems like certain people have issues controlling estrogen, then an AI is necessary. I use progesterone cream just in case even though I have never had that problem. Of course I am on my very first exogenous T cycle, so what do I know?

  8. Tongkat dramatically increased my free test from 19.4 to 27.3 (5-40 pg/mL scale) when I added it after my first year on TRT. Estrogen was relatively stable but still on the higher side at the time due to the process of dialing in my protocol.

    I happen to be someone that sees a ton of benefit from boron and tongkat supplementation. I find it to be a remarkable combo.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by souljah View Post
    Havent seen that Tongkat Ali reduces estrogen just that it boosts T and Boron can increase estrogen conversion. Seems like certain people have issues controlling estrogen, then an AI is necessary. I use progesterone cream just in case even though I have never had that problem. Of course I am on my very first exogenous T cycle, so what do I know?
    Why are you taking progesterone?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Yo Coop, can you post up where you get that? I've taken Boron for many years and never have had an increase in estrogen based on labs, which would match up with a more recent study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21129941. I understand that previous studies done with lower amounts 2.5mg and 5mg saw an increase in estrogen and test, but that when higher amounts are administered, free test goes up significantly, estrogen lowers, and DHT goes up. Not saying that it could not raise estrogen in some, but want to keep an open mind about what is being said and what I personally have found.

    I'd like to read up more if you have articles that say otherwise. Thanks!
    I'll try to get to it when I'm home. I know E decreased in the most recent study, but I believe that was because it was only run for a week or so. The older studies saw an increase in estrogen, and this is totally normal and expected through lowering SHBG. So you'd want to check if the new study measured total plasma estradiol or free estradiol

  11. As a natural non Rx AI.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by souljah View Post
    As a natural non Rx AI.
    Progesterone is not an AI. It downregulates the estrogen receptor, but that effect is mild and it certainly makes very little sense to give yourself progesterone strictly for the purpose of lowering estrogen. Progesterone happens to be the strongest smooth muscle relaxant that the human body produces. As such, you should fully expect pretty signficant GI side effects, increased risk of cholecystitis, bloating and fluid retention, vascular side effects, increased temperature, and the list goes on..

  13. Quote Originally Posted by souljah View Post

    it will also increase your estrogen levels.
    In my experience:
    Viron has not increased my estrogen levels. My e2 just came back at 14 which is the exact same number it was 3 months ago.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Progesterone is not an AI. It downregulates the estrogen receptor, but that effect is mild and it certainly makes very little sense to give yourself progesterone strictly for the purpose of lowering estrogen. Progesterone happens to be the strongest smooth muscle relaxant that the human body produces. As such, you should fully expect pretty signficant GI side effects, increased risk of cholecystitis, bloating and fluid retention, vascular side effects, increased temperature, and the list goes on..
    I use it along with my dhea but only sparingly and in small topical amounts. Definitely have no effects yet bad or good at this point.

  15. I really think that you should not be using that along with DHEA if you are trying to address possible sides from the DHEA. I am only assuming that is why you are taking it.

  16. Its possible estrogen can rise from Viron from an increase in testosterone and also from a reduction in SHBG.
    Elevated estro can always be a potential issue when your increasing test levels so any viable test booster has this potential unless its an AI.

    So, run Formeron with it if you are estro sensitive or just want to be safe. Either way combining the 2 is amazing anyways.
    BLACK LION RESEARCH Take your own path-

  17. The only time I have had high estrogen problems was when I got injured and ended up on opiates for a few years, other than that my hormones have always been pretty balanced, Im just doing everything I can to not have to start TRT (age 44) because even though both my older brothers are on it my last test a couple years ago while still on opiates was 390 and that was in the afternoon. So that started me looking at estrogen conversion possibilities. I am totally clean now, no opiates, drugs, alcohol. I am expecting my HPTG axis to restart on its own after a couple years of inactivity and opiate use. I am open to any suggestions, as welll as you are all very knowledgeable and I wouldnt be here if this forum wasnt the sheet. Im waiting a few more months with me doing all the natural test boosters before i pay for my bloodwoork (self employed no insurance.)

  18. Would it be better to just take a tongkat ali extract without the boron if that's the case? (To rule out any possible conversion to estrogen).
    Mentally Unstable - Divided Mind

  19. Quote Originally Posted by ELROCK View Post

    In my experience:
    Viron has not increased my estrogen levels. My e2 just came back at 14 which is the exact same number it was 3 months ago.
    How much were you dosing viron?
    Mentally Unstable - Divided Mind

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Sketch2000 View Post
    Would it be better to just take a tongkat ali extract without the boron if that's the case? (To rule out any possible conversion to estrogen).
    The benefits of the boron far outweigh the risk of a slight spike in estrogen.
    Again anything that raises test levels will raise estrogen. Should we then not have high testosterone levels?
    Instead of not taking any supplements that may elevate estrogen use something to moderate it instead.

    Formeron will keep estrogen at bay
    Raise test levels even further
    Convert to hydroxytest
    Added strength
    anabolic potential
    drying and hardening

    all the good things about Formeron plus it manages your estrogen IF it happens to rise above normal levels.
    BLACK LION RESEARCH Take your own path-

  21. This stack would be all time cut stack

    Formeron
    Viron
    Follidrone
    Incinderine

    Here is a before and after of a friend who ran Incinderine and Formeron for his contest prep

    BLACK LION RESEARCH Take your own path-

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Sketch2000 View Post

    How much were you dosing viron?
    1 cap per day.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by ELROCK View Post

    1 cap per day.
    5 days a week 2 days off

  24. Quote Originally Posted by ELROCK View Post

    1 cap per day.
    K thanks
    Mentally Unstable - Divided Mind

  25. I think we should all be careful of fake or moonshine tongkat ali extracts. That somebody is promoting his own product as the best on a forum is just spam blabla. Look at the fundamentals: Is a product properly licensed? How long is the seller in business? Is there photographic proof of access to tongkat ali?

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Earl17 View Post
    I think we should all be careful of fake or moonshine tongkat ali extracts. That somebody is promoting his own product as the best on a forum is just spam blabla. Look at the fundamentals: Is a product properly licensed? How long is the seller in business? Is there photographic proof of access to tongkat ali?
    Who are you?
    Black Lion Representative
    I'm a Brooklyn boy I may take some gettin' use to

  27. Someone getting ready to pitch his own product.

  28. Long jack is good if you have "HypoGonads"

  29. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Someone getting ready to pitch his own product.
    Ding!
    His only other post is promoting another tongkat product. HIGHLY transparent.
    The good news is thousands of people have taken my tongkat with 100% positive reviews so.....Ill take that over BS all day long.
    BLACK LION RESEARCH Take your own path-

  30. High grade tongkat coupled with boron citrate.
    Priced low for the quality and dose. Has been used by thousands of people with no negative reports.

    http://www.blacklionresearch.com/viron/
    BLACK LION RESEARCH Take your own path-
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