Tongkat Ali

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    Quote Originally Posted by brundel View Post

    Its not likely because when your using testosterone it suppresses natural test production.
    Even clomid wont do much as there is still significant suppression happening.
    Look at it like this....if your taking test from the outside you pretty much have no natty test your relying 100% on external input. Stimulating it would be like trying to milk a cow with no udders.

    You might get some..but negligible.
    Tongkat has other properties though and the boron in out product Viron will increase free testosterone and DHT and vitamin D levels.
    So youll get mood and energy from the tonkat and the others from the boron so its still a good deal.
    I just would not expect total testosterone levels to rise.
    Thanks.

    I'm really interested in TA for its libido enhancing properties. I know once you begin receiving test externally your natural production shuts down, just wasn't sure if the TA would have any effect. The other benefits however sound promising.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brundel View Post
    We havnt test specifically for this compound.
    There are...other beneficial compounds in the tongkat as well.
    My personal fav is 9-hydroxycanthin-6-one

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21569213

    When I first tested the extract we used I noticed effects consistent with the above study.
    As a vascular Ca2+ channel blocker, one would think tongkat would lower BP...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwolenONE View Post
    Our brand new Test Factor uses a 2% eurycomanone Tongkat extract.
    Not easy to get the good Tongkat. But this stuff is legit!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pneumophant View Post
    Not easy to get the good Tongkat. But this stuff is legit!
    Sadly it isnt even as much about being easy to source as it is about company owners caring, or even knowing much about the actives in tongkat (clearly, Brundel is an exception, he knows his stuff).

    Most companies just want to slap tongkat on the label as its a well known ingredient, or use other patented extracts that do not disclose their eurycomanone content (for good reason). This 2% extract just adds to the already impressive Test Factor formula, can't wait to see feedback on it. NP has been selling it QUICK, they already re ordered!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwolenONE View Post

    Sadly it isnt even as much about being easy to source as it is about company owners caring, or even knowing much about the actives in tongkat (clearly, Brundel is an exception, he knows his stuff).

    Most companies just want to slap tongkat on the label as its a well known ingredient, or use other patented extracts that do not disclose their eurycomanone content (for good reason). This 2% extract just adds to the already impressive Test Factor formula, can't wait to see feedback on it. NP has been selling it QUICK, they already re ordered!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwolenONE View Post
    Sadly it isnt even as much about being easy to source as it is about company owners caring, or even knowing much about the actives in tongkat (clearly, Brundel is an exception, he knows his stuff).

    Most companies just want to slap tongkat on the label as its a well known ingredient, or use other patented extracts that do not disclose their eurycomanone content (for good reason). This 2% extract just adds to the already impressive Test Factor formula, can't wait to see feedback on it. NP has been selling it QUICK, they already re ordered!
    Agreed. Brundel knows his stuff!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    As a vascular Ca2+ channel blocker, one would think tongkat would lower BP...
    That is fairly interesting..
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    Ordered viron. Shame only one black lion online distributor has it in stock. Kinda pricey. But i want to go with the best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch2000 View Post
    Ordered viron. Shame only one black lion online distributor has it in stock. Kinda pricey. But i want to go with the best.
    We will be shipping to more distributors next week.
    The price is actually low compared to other tongkat products that are - Real tongkat, properly extracted, work well.
    Some are in the 90$ range for less tongkat than you get in ours.

    You can find tongkat cheaper but likely its either not tongkat, or, its just raw tongkat material meaning no extract, or its improperly extracted.
    I did my best to keep it inexpensive but...I figure people would rather have a good product than a cheap one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brundel View Post

    We will be shipping to more distributors next week.
    The price is actually low compared to other tongkat products that are - Real tongkat, properly extracted, work well.
    Some are in the 90$ range for less tongkat than you get in ours.

    You can find tongkat cheaper but likely its either not tongkat, or, its just raw tongkat material meaning no extract, or its improperly extracted.
    I did my best to keep it inexpensive but...I figure people would rather have a good product than a cheap one.
    Cool. Thanks for all your helpful info too brundel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brundel View Post

    We will be shipping to more distributors next week.
    The price is actually low compared to other tongkat products that are - Real tongkat, properly extracted, work well.
    Some are in the 90$ range for less tongkat than you get in ours.

    You can find tongkat cheaper but likely its either not tongkat, or, its just raw tongkat material meaning no extract, or its improperly extracted.
    I did my best to keep it inexpensive but...I figure people would rather have a good product than a cheap one.
    No disrespect intended either brother. Obviously just learning about this stuff so no real idea about the pricing. Nothing to really compare to.
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    I wasnt taking it that way at all and IM not trying to be harsh.
    Just explaining.
    My thought was its sort of expensive as well but when I compared pricing on other brands we were still relatively low.

    Source naturals sells for 20-30$ approx. 81mg caps x 60
    we have 60x 250mg plus boron citrate. for less than 40$
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    brundel have you already shipped viron to your uk distributor?looking every day at their homepage when it finally pops up in the new ar***** section
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    Quote Originally Posted by uubiduu View Post
    brundel have you already shipped viron to your uk distributor?looking every day at their homepage when it finally pops up in the new ar***** section
    Yes sir Viron shipped to the UK last week.

    Its not going to the same place the Follidrone intro was at.
    The second Retailer listed for the Uk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brundel View Post
    Yes sir Viron shipped to the UK last week.

    Its not going to the same place the Follidrone intro was at.
    The second Retailer listed for the Uk.
    Brundel do you know if Tongkat Ali is available / allowed in Australia?

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    I have no reason to think otherwise but I dont know for sure.
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    Okay. Thanks brother.

    Sketch
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    Quote Originally Posted by brundel View Post

    the boron in out product Viron will increase free testosterone and DHT and vitamin D levels.
    it will also increase your estrogen levels.
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    Yup ^ run a AI alongside it
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfhuman View Post
    Yup ^ run a AI alongside it
    I know its been mentioned that an AI might be needed, but I've spoken to a few reputable people that think it isnt needed. Especially if dosing 4/3
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    The boron or tongkat ali causes estrogen?
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    Tongkat should reduce estrogen, boron should raise it
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Tongkat should reduce estrogen, boron should raise it
    I cant imagine an AI would be needed for Viron, they cancel one another out. I'm on the fence as to try 2 caps or stick with 1

    What say you @mr.cooper69?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshlm69 View Post
    I cant imagine an AI would be needed for Viron, they cancel one another out. I'm on the fence as to try 2 caps or stick with 1

    What say you @mr.cooper69?
    I cannot comment on BLR products, but in terms of boron vs tongkat, the estrogen raising effect of boron is much more significant than the estrogen lowering effect of tongkat. A good dose of boron citrate is 200mg (yielding 10mg boron) and a good dose of tongkat is 200mg of LJ100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshlm69 View Post
    I cant imagine an AI would be needed for Viron
    Tongkat/Boron supplement
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    Yo Coop, can you post up where you get that? I've taken Boron for many years and never have had an increase in estrogen based on labs, which would match up with a more recent study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21129941. I understand that previous studies done with lower amounts 2.5mg and 5mg saw an increase in estrogen and test, but that when higher amounts are administered, free test goes up significantly, estrogen lowers, and DHT goes up. Not saying that it could not raise estrogen in some, but want to keep an open mind about what is being said and what I personally have found.

    I'd like to read up more if you have articles that say otherwise. Thanks!
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    Havent seen that Tongkat Ali reduces estrogen just that it boosts T and Boron can increase estrogen conversion. Seems like certain people have issues controlling estrogen, then an AI is necessary. I use progesterone cream just in case even though I have never had that problem. Of course I am on my very first exogenous T cycle, so what do I know?
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    Tongkat dramatically increased my free test from 19.4 to 27.3 (5-40 pg/mL scale) when I added it after my first year on TRT. Estrogen was relatively stable but still on the higher side at the time due to the process of dialing in my protocol.

    I happen to be someone that sees a ton of benefit from boron and tongkat supplementation. I find it to be a remarkable combo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by souljah View Post
    Havent seen that Tongkat Ali reduces estrogen just that it boosts T and Boron can increase estrogen conversion. Seems like certain people have issues controlling estrogen, then an AI is necessary. I use progesterone cream just in case even though I have never had that problem. Of course I am on my very first exogenous T cycle, so what do I know?
    Why are you taking progesterone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Yo Coop, can you post up where you get that? I've taken Boron for many years and never have had an increase in estrogen based on labs, which would match up with a more recent study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21129941. I understand that previous studies done with lower amounts 2.5mg and 5mg saw an increase in estrogen and test, but that when higher amounts are administered, free test goes up significantly, estrogen lowers, and DHT goes up. Not saying that it could not raise estrogen in some, but want to keep an open mind about what is being said and what I personally have found.

    I'd like to read up more if you have articles that say otherwise. Thanks!
    I'll try to get to it when I'm home. I know E decreased in the most recent study, but I believe that was because it was only run for a week or so. The older studies saw an increase in estrogen, and this is totally normal and expected through lowering SHBG. So you'd want to check if the new study measured total plasma estradiol or free estradiol
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    As a natural non Rx AI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by souljah View Post
    As a natural non Rx AI.
    Progesterone is not an AI. It downregulates the estrogen receptor, but that effect is mild and it certainly makes very little sense to give yourself progesterone strictly for the purpose of lowering estrogen. Progesterone happens to be the strongest smooth muscle relaxant that the human body produces. As such, you should fully expect pretty signficant GI side effects, increased risk of cholecystitis, bloating and fluid retention, vascular side effects, increased temperature, and the list goes on..
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    Quote Originally Posted by souljah View Post

    it will also increase your estrogen levels.
    In my experience:
    Viron has not increased my estrogen levels. My e2 just came back at 14 which is the exact same number it was 3 months ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Progesterone is not an AI. It downregulates the estrogen receptor, but that effect is mild and it certainly makes very little sense to give yourself progesterone strictly for the purpose of lowering estrogen. Progesterone happens to be the strongest smooth muscle relaxant that the human body produces. As such, you should fully expect pretty signficant GI side effects, increased risk of cholecystitis, bloating and fluid retention, vascular side effects, increased temperature, and the list goes on..
    I use it along with my dhea but only sparingly and in small topical amounts. Definitely have no effects yet bad or good at this point.
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    I really think that you should not be using that along with DHEA if you are trying to address possible sides from the DHEA. I am only assuming that is why you are taking it.
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    Its possible estrogen can rise from Viron from an increase in testosterone and also from a reduction in SHBG.
    Elevated estro can always be a potential issue when your increasing test levels so any viable test booster has this potential unless its an AI.

    So, run Formeron with it if you are estro sensitive or just want to be safe. Either way combining the 2 is amazing anyways.
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    The only time I have had high estrogen problems was when I got injured and ended up on opiates for a few years, other than that my hormones have always been pretty balanced, Im just doing everything I can to not have to start TRT (age 44) because even though both my older brothers are on it my last test a couple years ago while still on opiates was 390 and that was in the afternoon. So that started me looking at estrogen conversion possibilities. I am totally clean now, no opiates, drugs, alcohol. I am expecting my HPTG axis to restart on its own after a couple years of inactivity and opiate use. I am open to any suggestions, as welll as you are all very knowledgeable and I wouldnt be here if this forum wasnt the sheet. Im waiting a few more months with me doing all the natural test boosters before i pay for my bloodwoork (self employed no insurance.)
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    Would it be better to just take a tongkat ali extract without the boron if that's the case? (To rule out any possible conversion to estrogen).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELROCK View Post

    In my experience:
    Viron has not increased my estrogen levels. My e2 just came back at 14 which is the exact same number it was 3 months ago.
    How much were you dosing viron?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch2000 View Post
    Would it be better to just take a tongkat ali extract without the boron if that's the case? (To rule out any possible conversion to estrogen).
    The benefits of the boron far outweigh the risk of a slight spike in estrogen.
    Again anything that raises test levels will raise estrogen. Should we then not have high testosterone levels?
    Instead of not taking any supplements that may elevate estrogen use something to moderate it instead.

    Formeron will keep estrogen at bay
    Raise test levels even further
    Convert to hydroxytest
    Added strength
    anabolic potential
    drying and hardening

    all the good things about Formeron plus it manages your estrogen IF it happens to rise above normal levels.
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