Supplements to Help Keto Diet

Grayson

Grayson

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Like the title says, what's out there?

I just got off Alpha T2 and looking for something non-stim. Before that I was on EC for 10 weeks and I also use yohimbine for cardio days.

I was looking at HCA and GCB, but I think those would be saved best for once I transition into CKD. I have a bottle of RK from muscle feast, but dosing it at 2-3grams a day didn't really do anything.
 
Driven2lift

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Carnitine salt of your preference.
 

louisaboy

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I believe Patrick Arnold has a supp called Ketoforce. (Prototype Nutrition). That could be a helpful supp as well.
 

KtchnChmst

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-Carnitine can be helpful
-RaspberryKetones at 1500mg/day could be helpful
-A good/solid GDA can be usefull during refeeds
-A good/solid Cortisol product can be helpful
-Clen can be useful
-AlphaT2 or Real T3 can be useful
-A properly dosed Yohimbine HCL product can be useful pre-cardio

-Ephedrine/Caffeine should be avoided (potential raise in Coritsol)
-Stand-alone BCAAs should be avoided
-MCTs should be avoided
 
xR1pp3Rx

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why in the world would you want to stay away from MCTs />?? that's makes no sense to me.
 
KrisL

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http://books.google.com/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&lpg=PA13&dq=medium chain triglyceride ketosis&pg=PA13#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=4W7UI-FPZmoC&lpg=PA390&dq=medium chain triglyceride ketosis&pg=PA390#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12975635
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15544546

It actually sounds to me like MCTs help you drop into ketosis faster (I learned a new thing?). I suppose if you had MCTs on an IV drip all day, you might be burning them instead of bodyfat, but that would be true of any fat intake.
 

KtchnChmst

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DAMNIT!.........Sorry guys, my head was somewhere else when I was typing yesterday...actually forgot I even replied to this thread!
1) I didn't mean to type MCTs should be avoided....sorry. They can be useful, but dont agree with my stomach sometimes....I like peanut or almond butters better!
2) The reasoning or theory behind avoiding Ephedrine/Caffeine stack while on Keto is simply because one of your biggest enemies is going to be Cortisol in the body. Unless you're an enhanced lifter, Cortisol can become an issue once you reach a state of ketosis, and any added "stress" can exacerbate the issue...Because the Eph/Caff has a direct effect on the CNS it can cause a raise in Cortisol levels.....Theres NO guarantee this will happen and it doesnt HAVE TO happen in EVERYONE, and like I said, an enhanced lifter has less to be concerned with....But its something to keep in mind.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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that's pretty much the reasoning behind cycling ketosis phases with carb ups.. to avoid the cortisol build up that might otherwise make it hard to maintain mass.
 

KtchnChmst

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T4-T3 production/conversion is also a main reason behind "carb-ups".
Ive successfully used Keto diets for almost 6yrs, and ive never considered a well-planned keto diet to NOT have a day containing a carb surplus. Ive personally always implemented a 24hr Carb refeed once ive hit 9% bf, and i generally use this with all my carb-sensitive clients....on an individual basis if course.
 
Grayson

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Wow... great info, everybody.

I was on EC for the first 2 weeks of keto (so I was getting fat adapted and it didn't really make me catabolic.) A few notes:
-I am on 100mg forskolin a day. I know this slightly increases cortisol, should I stop?
-I was on Alpha T2 and now I'm starting with 3 caps of SS Shift.
-I will be starting Reduce XT on April 2nd, compound 20 tomorrow, and maybe alphamine around mid april.

I have now been on keto for around 7 weeks with only one "cheat meal" (my ex-gf made a carby v-day dinner) and that was before I was fat adapted because I got the keto flu again.

I have not done a bodpod test, but according to my calipers I am between 15-17% bodyfat. My scale tells me I'm 12.5%, but I don't believe that.

I have also begun to incorporate green coffee bean extract before dinner and before bed.

I have HCA and Na-R-ALA for my carb ups. I think around mid-april I will have my first carb up according to the lyle's guidelines.

How am I doing so far?
 
KrisL

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Honestly, the god-mode I get from my weekly carb-up is one of the best parts of the diet for me. Not sure how I'd deal with it, psychologically, without the little reward at least twice a month. While most people I'm aware of adhere to a weekly carb-up, I'm not sure that I've ever heard of an established number of days its advisable to go without carbs... anyone know that one?
 
Grayson

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Honestly, the god-mode I get from my weekly carb-up is one of the best parts of the diet for me. Not sure how I'd deal with it, psychologically, without the little reward at least twice a month. While most people I'm aware of adhere to a weekly carb-up, I'm not sure that I've ever heard of an established number of days its advisable to go without carbs... anyone know that one?
I've read that people go at least 2 months before they're first carb-up. I'm just speculating and could be entirely wrong.
 

KtchnChmst

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WoW!......2months is a loooong time to run on zero carbs! LoL
Typically the time it takes an individual to completely deplete their body of carbs/glucose is dependent upon the amount of muscle mass the individual carries, the overall intensity of their daily training, and supplements and/or "enhancements." Having said that, I usually have my male clients/athletes run zero carbs for a strict 2wks to completely deplete all glucose and ensure deep ketosis. Once the initial 2wk "purge" I schedule a Carb-Up/Refeed every seven days.
Now, the size/duration of that refeed is again dependent upon the individuals muscle mass, metabolism, bodyfat percentage, and personal reaction to the carb ups.....Some people need more carbs, some don't need alot. I've also had plenty of men who benefited greatly from a carb-up/refeed every 4 days once their bodyfat gets below 6-7%
 
Grayson

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Long story short, I started ketosis during a stressful time in my life (breaking up with gf, new semester at grad school, job pressure) and I didn't work out regularly for the first month of ketosis. Before that, I was normally dieting with about 120 carbs a day. My strength on my main lifts had plummeted, but I attribute that to stress, not finding time to train and slowly lowering my calories to now 2065. After training routinely for the past 2 weeks, my strength is coming back slowly.

I'm going to do a carb up next saturday and start CKD.

Protocol:
Saturday morning - 300mg na-r-ala, 1000mg hca, 1000mg agmatine. 30 min later -> 25-50 grams of carbs with protein and some fat (I'm thinking a few pieces of toast and a shake)
3 hours later - 25-50 grams of glucose of fructose (either some apple juice or gatorade)
2 hours later - Workout
Post workout - 140 grams of quick carbs (gatorade or juice) and 20 grams of protein
Rest of the day: make sure to fill in 3600 cals with 70% coming from carbs. I'm going to keep it to mainly high-glycemic carbs (white bread, sugar).

I'm definitely going to pizza and ice cream at some point.

Then sunday morning I'll do a 45 minute HIIT.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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instead try having some fruit and juice only before your lift sesh. the fructose will trick your body. as it will only refill liver glycogen it still sends the message system wide that you are eating carbs again.. thus itll will relax its hold on any remaining glucose stores and release them for fuel during your training.. this will
drive the nail into the coffin of insulin resistance and set you up for the best returns on your carb ups.
next.. don't waste your carb ups on HIIT the following day.. use them to power your lifting sessions on the start of the new cycle. you will be your strongest durig this period of the week so use it wisely!
 
KrisL

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the fructose will trick your body. as it will only refill liver glycogen it still sends the message system wide that you are eating carbs again.. thus itll will relax its hold on any remaining glucose stores and release them for fuel during your training
Source?I know McDonald says to avoid it post-workout, but says noithing about it pre-workout.
 
Grayson

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instead try having some fruit and juice only before your lift sesh. the fructose will trick your body. as it will only refill liver glycogen it still sends the message system wide that you are eating carbs again.. thus itll will relax its hold on any remaining glucose stores and release them for fuel during your training.. this will
drive the nail into the coffin of insulin resistance and set you up for the best returns on your carb ups.
next.. don't waste your carb ups on HIIT the following day.. use them to power your lifting sessions on the start of the new cycle. you will be your strongest durig this period of the week so use it wisely!
Interesting. I'll try that out. It seems silly to wait 5 hours to train.

So then I'm thinking 300mg na-r-ala, 1000mg hca, 1000mg agmatine... THEN drink the juice 20-30 min later. Workout. Then do post workout quick carbs and slowly easing into slower digesting carbs into the day.
 
Whacked

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??? Interesting thought.....Hmmmmmmmm

instead try having some fruit and juice only before your lift sesh. the fructose will trick your body. as it will only refill liver glycogen it still sends the message system wide that you are eating carbs again.. thus itll will relax its hold on any remaining glucose stores and release them for fuel during your training.. this will
drive the nail into the coffin of insulin resistance and set you up for the best returns on your carb ups.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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Interesting. I'll try that out. It seems silly to wait 5 hours to train.

So then I'm thinking 300mg na-r-ala, 1000mg hca, 1000mg agmatine... THEN drink the juice 20-30 min later. Workout. Then do post workout quick carbs and slowly easing into slower digesting carbs into the day.
this except wait a couple hrs before training on fruits. give time for the process to take place then train.
 
Grayson

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this except wait a couple hrs before training on fruits. give time for the process to take place then train.
That makes sense. I'll give it 2 hours or so and then lift. Also, I'm a little scared. I've been reading that keto significantly messes up thyroid hormones. I started taking TT-33 a few days ago since my waist hasn't budged in a month. I thought it'd be a good idea if I've been on keto for so long without a carb up. I have had days in which I go 1000 cals above maintenance (usually once every 2 fridays), but that's because of an extra steak or omelet. Should I continue taking tt-33 or is it not going to help?
 
xR1pp3Rx

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That makes sense. I'll give it 2 hours or so and then lift. Also, I'm a little scared. I've been reading that keto significantly messes up thyroid hormones. I started taking TT-33 a few days ago since my waist hasn't budged in a month. I thought it'd be a good idea if I've been on keto for so long without a carb up. I have had days in which I go 1000 cals above maintenance (usually once every 2 fridays), but that's because of an extra steak or omelet. Should I continue taking tt-33 or is it not going to help?
its certainly not going to hurt you. tt-33 seems to help me when im getting twords the end of a good cut. also cals in vs cals out still applies during a keto diet too!! try to keep them cals in check especially now you have carb ups
 
CATdiesel76

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Patrick Arnold released a pretty incredible product called ketoforce under prototype nutrition. Definitely look at it. There is nothing else
Like it anywhere and should be a big help to anyone doing a ketondiet
 
xR1pp3Rx

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This study is about post-exercise fructose.
regardless, it demonstrates the fact its poor at getting past the liver in a short period of time, like I said have a look on your own about the subject.
 

jimbo63

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I just started keto diet myself, did the 2 weeks with like 3000 cals daily, 18g carbs, 200g protein and rest from fat grams, did a refeed on weekend and then back to keto on sunday night, finally got some ketostix and when I checked all week not in ketosis until the next Saturday and only trace ketones! I must be messing up somehow. After 35 days I lowered my cals down to 2000 daily, 20g carbs, 160g protein and remainder fat grams. I weightlift 4 days per week. I have been weightlifting on and off over 25 years and stopped for few years due to shoulder problem. Gained a lot of fat, weight 310 now! How long can I go without a carb up? Is it necessary at my weight now and how long can I lift without losing lbm with the fat loss without doing any refeeds? Sorry for all the questions. Jimbo 63
 
KrisL

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Your protein is too high.
Insofar as I am aware, protein's not going to keep him out of ketosis. I'm a fan of retarded-high protein though.
refeed on weekend
At your size, I would suggest no more than an hour-long refeed to start, not a whole weekend (if that's what you did). Sit down with a pizza and a protein shake, throw out what's left over after 60 minutes. You should find you're able to get back to ketosis faster.
keto on sunday night...not in ketosis until the next Saturday and only trace ketones!
The bigger you are, the longer it takes to get into ketosis it seems. When you've got single digit bf, it might take a day, but it looks like you're at 5 or 6 days, which makes sense. That should improve over time.
2000 daily, 20g carbs, 160g protein and remainder fat grams.
20 carbs is about a stalk of broccoli... if that's your carbs, 9g is fiber, making it more like 11g carbs. Hooray. I am a fan of fluctuating caloric intake. For example, 1500 one day, 2500 the next. I have zero proof that this does anything, but it works for me.
How long can I go without a carb up?
Well, let's say you take a week to hit ketosis. We know two weeks keto is plenty safe. I'd call it a three week total for you - at least for a couple cycles.
Is it necessary at my weight
It's necessary at any weight to keep hormones happy.
how long can I lift without losing lbm... without doing any refeeds?
There's no reason you should lose much at all, or any, provided your protein intake is high enough. I think you'd likely feel pretty run-down if you go longer than a month without a carb-up. You're your own mad scientist, though, so you'll have to dial your diet in yourself.
 

rphash49

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Your protein is too high.
The guy weighs 310lbs. I don't see 200g protein being too much unless his LBM is less than 200lbs. Knowing his LBM would help to determine how much he actually needs.

That being said I would think a 310lb guy eating 3000cal a day should lose weight quickly unless he is bed ridden and gets zero excersize
 
gymratluke

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T4-T3 production/conversion is also a main reason behind "carb-ups".
Ive successfully used Keto diets for almost 6yrs, and ive never considered a well-planned keto diet to NOT have a day containing a carb surplus. Ive personally always implemented a 24hr Carb refeed once ive hit 9% bf, and i generally use this with all my carb-sensitive clients....on an individual basis if course.
Agreed! I would always hit the gym and do a full body pump workout and slam carbs all day Saturday while I was doing Keto, always have had 1 weekly carb up, excluding the very first weekend of the diet. Always worked great and I never had any weeks where my fat loss stalled, I simply got leaner and leaner by the week.

To the OP, I would say use a cortisol blocker! I personally use and love my LeanFx!
 
xR1pp3Rx

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I think the operative solution is this, as stated in your article:
"Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat."
ive said this many times in other threads... until the verdict is in I will error on the side of caution. not that it really makes that big of a difference but I like to have every advantage thats possible. also the article fails to mention what kind of diets the subjects used and ect. there are far too many varibles to come down hard on either side here. just because youre in ketosis doesn't mean all the parameters are even. there are huge differences in each style of diets that illicit far different outcomes. and lets just be realistic and realize that most low carb data is based on normal sedentary adults, not young viral body builders who are in a much different state of metabolism than average people.
 

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