Interesting DHEA Study
- 02-18-2005, 07:48 PM
Nolva is much more cost effective than 60x0 actually. The 2 bottles of 60x0 I had to buy for this experiment, cost way too much for what you get. With Nolva your getting a much more potent estrogen blocker at a fraction of the price.
and I would just run the Nolva for about 5-7 more days than the DHEA.
That should be much more than enough time, for the excess estrogen coming from the DHEA, to clear.
and I wouldn't worry about Nolva increasing estrogen... It increases estrogen at the estrogen receptor, but its a competitive type of benign estrogen. Benign being the key word here.
- 02-18-2005, 07:53 PM
Cool man, I see what you mean. I'm gonna try out 200mg tomorrow for the first time and see how I react to it first. If it's all good then I'll take it up some more. BTW, nutraplanet and custom both have bulk 6-OXO CHEAP.
02-18-2005, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by lifted
The reason they may be synergistic is that 6-OXO, being a suicide inhibitor, is minimizing the aromatization of androstenedione to estrogen. Nolva, being an estrogen antagonist, shouldn't prevent the aromatization of dhea to androstenedione to estrogen.
02-18-2005, 08:06 PM
One of the concerns I have running DHEA post cycle is that it may slow recovery.
Evidence that dehydroepiandrosterone, DHEA, directly inhibits GnRH gene expression in GT1-7 hypothalamic neurons.
Cui H, Lin SY, Belsham DD.
Department of Physiology, Toronto General Hospital Research Institute, University Health Network, University of Toronto, Medical Sciences Building 3247A, 1 King's College Circle, Toronto, ON, Canada M5S 1A8.
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) has been reported to have diverse effects on overall physiology, although its mechanism of action and specific receptor are not yet known. We have used the immortalized, clonal GT1-7 hypothalamic neurons to study DHEA effects on gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) gene expression. DHEA (10(-4) M) downregulates GnRH transcription by 39, 70 and 83% at 24, 36, and 48 h, respectively, while DHEA-sulphate had no effect. Hydroxyflutamide a specific androgen receptor (AR) antagonist, and cyproterone acetate or trilostane, both inhibitors of 3 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase/delta 4,5 isomerase, the rate-limiting enzyme for the conversion of DHEA to sex steroids, did not affect the ability of DHEA to downregulate GnRH gene expression. We found that GT1-7 cells did not express aromatase, thereby precluding conversion to estrogen. Analysis of [(14)C] DHEA metabolism by thin layer chromatography indicates that the main metabolites produced are 7 alpha- and 7 beta-hydroxy DHEA, and 7-oxo DHEA, although these steroids were not able to repress GnRH gene expression alone. Cell viability studies indicated that the transcriptional repression observed is not due to GT1-7 cell death. Interestingly, SV40 T-antigen mRNA levels, under the control of 2.3 kb of the rat GnRH gene 5' regulatory region, are also repressed by DHEA. Our studies indicate that DHEA has direct effects on GnRH transcription that appear to be unique from those observed after conversion to other steroidogenic compounds.
02-18-2005, 08:08 PM
Bow makes a good point, Lifted.
If you get the headache, without the Euphoria... you may want to go with a low dose AI, like .2mg of Letrozole with your morning DHEA dose.
02-18-2005, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by TheTom
Still though, you got me thinking. I am still goin to run the DHEA and 6-OXO transdermal for my next round of PCT, regardless of the study above (showing the DHEA may downregulate GnRH transcription). Besides, the study was done in Canada, and we all know Canadian's don't know a damn thing
02-19-2005, 09:29 AM
Man, that sucks, thanks for that study bow....I tried searching for something like that the otehr day with no luck.
Thetom, what exactly d oyou mean if I get the headache? You mean from too much E associatted with High BP?? If so, I have been getting BP-type headaches latley. I think I'm gonna just try 200mg today and see how I react. I might as well be a ginny pig now...lol..I'll man up and continue on with the DHEA and then when I come back off everything, I'll of course report back. Good luck with your regimens guys....
02-19-2005, 09:46 AM
02-19-2005, 06:26 PM
I felt like experimenting today, so I took 600mg 60x0 and 800mg DHEA with breakfast.
My skin is still looking tanner, but my face has taken on a reddish tint. I look like I'm blushing all the time.
My midsection looked much leaner today, I am about 5 weeks into a cut, and fat loss really halted at about week 3.5. This is the first time I could "see" differences, since then.
I gotta say, if your using DHEA for mood, the difference between 400mg-800mg was noticeable... but maybe not worth the money.
At 400mg I felt more aggressive, very motivated, have a better sense of well being, and feel more egotistical/confident.
At 800mg I feel like a teenage kid going through puberty. The aggression is WAY up today. I am trying to refrain myself from breaking into a wrestling match with my friends, because they are still thinking like 30 year olds and I'm thinking like a freakin' 15 year old right now.
Also, at 800mg the libido is a disaster. Normally when I check out girls I see their flaws first and their goods second. Right now all I'm seein is T&A this and T&A that. I am like Shallow Hal, right now.
The good thing though, is that I will be doing my first workout while on the 60x0/DHEA combo, tonight. I couldn't workout on the first couple days, cause my left bicep was really beat up and I didn't want to injure it. Its feeling fine now.
02-19-2005, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by TheTom
Please note during your workout tonight if you experience any unsual vasolidating effect, like taking a NO supplement. It appears the DHEA may be a potent vasolidator.
.............................. .............................. ................
Dehydroepiandrosterone stimulates nitric oxide release in vascular endothelial cells: evidence for a cell surface receptor.
Liu D, Dillon JS.
Division of Endocrinology, Department of Internal Medicine, Roy J. and Lucille A. Carver College of Medicine, University of Iowa, Iowa City 52246, USA.
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) improves vascular function, but the mechanism of this effect is unclear. Since nitric oxide (NO) regulates vascular function, we hypothesized that DHEA affects the vasculature by increasing endothelial NO production. Physiological concentrations of DHEA stimulated NO release from intact bovine aortic endothelial cells (BAEC) within 5min. This effect was mediated by activation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) in BAEC and human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVEC). Dehydroepiandrosterone increased cyclic GMP (cGMP) levels in BAEC, consistent with its effect on NO production. Albumin-conjugated DHEA also stimulated NO release, suggesting that DHEA stimulates eNOS by a plasma membrane-initiated signal. Tamoxifen blocked estrogen-stimulated NO release from BAEC, but did not inhibit the DHEA effect. Pertussis toxin abolished the acute effect of DHEA on NO release. Dehydroepiandrosterone had no effect on intracellular calcium fluxes. However, inhibition of tyrosine kinases or the mitogen-activated protein (MAP) kinase kinase (MEK) blocked NO release and cGMP production in response to DHEA. These findings demonstrate that physiological concentrations of DHEA acutely increase NO release from intact vascular endothelial cells, by a plasma membrane-initiated mechanism. This action of DHEA is mediated by a steroid-specific, G-protein coupled receptor, which activates eNOS in both bovine and human cells. The release of NO is independent of intracellular calcium mobilization, but depends on tyrosine- and MAP kinases. This cellular mechanism may underlie some of the cardiovascular protective effects proposed for DHEA.
Dehydroepiandrosterone modulates endothelial nitric oxide synthesis via direct genomic and nongenomic mechanisms.
Simoncini T, Mannella P, Fornari L, Varone G, Caruso A, Genazzani AR.
Department of Reproductive Medicine and Child Development, Division of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Pisa, Pisa 56100, Italy. [email protected]
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester (DHEAS) are the major circulating steroid hormones in humans, and their levels progressively decline with age. Epidemiological studies suggest that DHEA/DHEAS concentrations may be inversely related to cardiovascular risk, but disagreement exists on this issue. Preliminary studies show that DHEA regulates vascular function, but few data have been published on the mechanisms. We show that DHEA administration to human endothelial cells triggers nitric oxide synthesis, due to enhanced expression and stabilization of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS). Additionally, DHEA rapidly activates eNOS, through a nontranscriptional mechanism that depends on ERK1/2 MAPK, but not on phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase/Akt. DHEA is not converted to estrogens or androgens by endothelial cells, and its genomic and nongenomic effects are not blocked by antagonists of the estrogen, progesterone, glucocorticoid, or androgen receptors, suggesting that DHEA acts through a specific receptor. Oral DHEA administration to ovariectomized Wistar rats dose-dependently restores aortic eNOS levels and eNOS activity, confirming the effects of DHEA in vivo. Our present data suggest that DHEA may have direct genomic and nongenomic effects on the vascular wall that are not mediated by other steroid hormone receptors, leading to eNOS activation and induction.
02-20-2005, 08:57 AM
Wow! Had a doozy of a workout today. Improved strength and endurance was highly noticeable.
I did not notice any increase in vascularity, but then again, I have been low-carbing for 5 weeks, and that's not a very vascularity-friendly diet. Not to mention my bf% is still much higher than I want it.
I will drop down to 200mg DHEA for a few days dose. Because at the end of the 800mg day, I'm noticing a LOT of budding pimples. My face is 100% clear year-round, and this just doesn't feel right. So I'm going to drop the dosage until my face clears up a bit and push back up to 400mg.
At 400mg there's really not many sides to speak of, I don't think it was necessary to goto 800mg. But I was curious.
02-20-2005, 12:03 PM
Usually during PCT, I get hit hard with acne. This usually then subsides during weeks 5-6. Today actually marks the end of week 4 for me and I've not really had any problems with the acne so far. BUT, it seems since I've upped my doseage within this last week from 50mg to 100mg and then again to 200mg, during the last few days, I'm starting to blow up with acne again too on my back and neck. For some reason the 50mg has helped limiting typical PC acne for myself, but it seems as though when I upped the dose to 100 then 200mg's, it made it worse. Hmmm.....
Okay, so I'm going to be running this dose until next Sunday which will mark the end of week 5. I'll continue to run 20mg nolva until the Sunday after that which will be the end of week 6. After that I'll be able to tell if I crash and burn, or walk out of this as a VERY succesful PCT.
I gained about 10-12lbs. with this last cycle of mine. It was 700mg Test weeks 1-14, and occasional spouts of PH's....lol...I just tried using up what I had left over from the ban. This much weight is actually pretty good for me. 260lbs. is totally pushing my genetic limits here so if I can gain 5-10lbs. from a cycle like this then I'm happy. SO far so good with PCT in those regards. SO far I've actually lost 10lbs. strength in various excercises, but arm and delt measurements actually increased since succession of the cycle. Other supps I'm on at this time is V12 Turbo, multi, C, NAC, nolva, powder.
02-20-2005, 09:42 PM
Took 200mg 60x0 and 200mg Dhea.
Did not notice much in terms of mood today, like with 400mg or 800mg. I still had feelings of increased motivation to do things, like weightlift, cardio, etc...
The budding pimples that were present last night, have subsided tonight. Skin isn't completely smooth, but a couple more days at 200mg should do the trick, I think. Then back to 400mg.
Other things of note, is that getting out of bed seems to be getting easier. Less fatigue this morning, than previous mornings. I normally lay around for 20-30 minutes after my alarm clock goes off, before getting out of bed. Today it was about 10
02-21-2005, 09:49 AM
02-21-2005, 10:02 PM
I am intersting in jumping on the DHEA banwagon but I am curious if their is any risk of low Natural DHEA level post cycle, if so does it rebound???
02-21-2005, 10:52 PM
Go to lef.org and type in dhea there is good info there too, there is a ton of write up about this supp every where
02-22-2005, 02:50 PM
Sounds interesting - I'm thinking of a rebound/dhea stack. Anyone know if any of the board sponsors stock bulk DHEA?
02-22-2005, 08:56 PM
Just curious Tom, are these doses of oxo/dhea once daily in the morning?Originally Posted by TheTom
02-22-2005, 10:37 PM
I have a funny feeling that I'm not too far from being recovered now. I had a great workout tonight with a 5lb. strength increase in all exercises done. But since I ended the cycle my strength went down a tad (10lbs.) so basically I only lost 5lbs. strength total. Creatine probably had say in this too though, so....
But most of all I just feel better. Usually I don't feel this recovered until week 7 or even 8-9 if it's a hardcore cycle. So far, so good. Will be taking last dose of DHEA in 4 more days. After that it's one more week of nolva and I should be good to do the natty thing for awhile.
02-23-2005, 01:00 AM
Yea dirty ernie, they are.
I haven't been posting any updates, because I'm just keeping steady at 200mg/200mg until all extra pimples and acne subsides. Thankfully, no new ones are forming. They appeared mid-late day, on the day I took 800mg DHEA. Which I won't be doing again. As for my current dosage. Increased motivation, and less drowsiness in the morning, are things worthy of note, at this dosage.
Extremely cost effective, if using it solely for those purposes.
02-23-2005, 10:59 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, one day when I stop juicing, I'll still use DHEA! Of course, I'll probably be about 90 by the time I stop juicing
Trust me guys, don't get greedy with the dose, unless you have a specific reason or your testing a theory of some kind short term. 50-600mg oral seems to be good for most applications. Also, don't take it at night! I've studied DHEA since I was 17 years old and can tell you, don't f with millions of years of evolution. Take mel at night and DHEA morning and/or noon. They are oppositional. These atricles aren't the greatest, but they bring up some of the points I'm trying to make:
03-03-2005, 05:01 PM
Well I quit taking the DHEA for a few days now. And let me tell you, ever since, I've been dragging AZZ in the morning shortly after I awake. This is leading me to believe that it MAY have postponed recovery for a bit...but cannot say for sure though w/o any bloodwork, so...I dunno. This is really the only thing I've noticed since discontinuing DHEA. Albeit, this is still a big problem for me....getting up rejuvenated vs. getting up half asleep either makes or breaks me for the rest of the day...I'm sure I don't have to tell you workinf guys that though.
Nolva is still being dosed at 30mg until this coming sunday. The next week will show me how this protocol has treated me. I've only been training one bodypart every 14 days or so. During PCT, I use a push/pull/leg split and I put 4-5 days rest in between EACH session. This does wonders for me in regards to keeping gains made and not OT'ing.
Will report back in another week....unless some have questions.
03-04-2005, 09:16 AM
After reading this thread I've tried the same protocol-200mg of 6-oxo and DHEA. I started with 50 mg of micronized pharma grade and then bumped it up. At 50mg, no change, at 100mg of DHEA also nothing, 150 mg ditto but today at 200mg I am feeling very good.
Increased lifts this AM, increased energy and motivation and on the drive to work my vision seemed "crisper" for the lack of a better word. Sleep, diet and training (FI's Russian Bench routine) has remained the same since starting the DHEA
I am going to drop the 6-oxo (intuitively I just don't like it) soon and see if there are any changes. I will stay at 200mg for a while and see if these effects are just placebo. I might throw in KS Attack and see what happens but not for at least a week or so.
03-04-2005, 12:43 PM
I have been playing around with various transdermal dosages. It was difficult when I started to notice any type of psychological benefit due to the lingering effects of a cold I am fighting. However, I think I am finally over the cold and can subjectively comment on the effects. I am running at 80/100/300 mg's of 6-OXO, 7-OXO-DHEA, and DHEA ed respectively and am really enjoying the benefits. Energy is comparable to that of when I was running test/tren/sd. I am going to continue at those dosages for at least another week to see if it is placebo effect or otherwise. I have lost some LBM, but I think that was mostly the effects of the cold.
bows PCT cycle
03-07-2005, 12:49 PM
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