Interesting DHEA Study
- 02-21-2005, 10:52 PM
- 02-22-2005, 02:50 PM
Sounds interesting - I'm thinking of a rebound/dhea stack. Anyone know if any of the board sponsors stock bulk DHEA?
- 02-22-2005, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by TheTom
02-22-2005, 10:37 PM
I have a funny feeling that I'm not too far from being recovered now. I had a great workout tonight with a 5lb. strength increase in all exercises done. But since I ended the cycle my strength went down a tad (10lbs.) so basically I only lost 5lbs. strength total. Creatine probably had say in this too though, so....
But most of all I just feel better. Usually I don't feel this recovered until week 7 or even 8-9 if it's a hardcore cycle. So far, so good. Will be taking last dose of DHEA in 4 more days. After that it's one more week of nolva and I should be good to do the natty thing for awhile.
02-23-2005, 01:00 AM
Yea dirty ernie, they are.
I haven't been posting any updates, because I'm just keeping steady at 200mg/200mg until all extra pimples and acne subsides. Thankfully, no new ones are forming. They appeared mid-late day, on the day I took 800mg DHEA. Which I won't be doing again. As for my current dosage. Increased motivation, and less drowsiness in the morning, are things worthy of note, at this dosage.
Extremely cost effective, if using it solely for those purposes.
02-23-2005, 10:59 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, one day when I stop juicing, I'll still use DHEA! Of course, I'll probably be about 90 by the time I stop juicing
Trust me guys, don't get greedy with the dose, unless you have a specific reason or your testing a theory of some kind short term. 50-600mg oral seems to be good for most applications. Also, don't take it at night! I've studied DHEA since I was 17 years old and can tell you, don't f with millions of years of evolution. Take mel at night and DHEA morning and/or noon. They are oppositional. These atricles aren't the greatest, but they bring up some of the points I'm trying to make:
03-03-2005, 05:01 PM
Well I quit taking the DHEA for a few days now. And let me tell you, ever since, I've been dragging AZZ in the morning shortly after I awake. This is leading me to believe that it MAY have postponed recovery for a bit...but cannot say for sure though w/o any bloodwork, so...I dunno. This is really the only thing I've noticed since discontinuing DHEA. Albeit, this is still a big problem for me....getting up rejuvenated vs. getting up half asleep either makes or breaks me for the rest of the day...I'm sure I don't have to tell you workinf guys that though.
Nolva is still being dosed at 30mg until this coming sunday. The next week will show me how this has treated me. I've only been training one bodypart every 14 days or so. During PCT, I use a push/pull/leg split and I put 4-5 days rest in between EACH session. This does wonders for me in regards to keeping gains made and not OT'ing.
Will report back in another week....unless some have questions.
03-04-2005, 09:16 AM
After reading this thread I've tried the same-200mg of 6-oxo and DHEA. I started with 50 mg of micronized pharma grade and then bumped it up. At 50mg, no change, at 100mg of DHEA also nothing, 150 mg ditto but today at 200mg I am feeling very good.
Increased lifts this AM, increased energy and motivation and on the drive to work my vision seemed "crisper" for the lack of a better word. Sleep, diet and training (FI's Russian Bench routine) has remained the same since starting the DHEA
I am going to drop the 6-oxo (intuitively I just don't like it) soon and see if there are any changes. I will stay at 200mg for a while and see if these effects are just placebo. I might throw in KS and see what happens but not for at least a week or so.
03-04-2005, 12:43 PM
I have been playing around with various transdermal dosages. It was difficult when I started to notice any type of psychological benefit due to the lingering effects of a cold I am fighting. However, I think I am finally over the cold and can subjectively comment on the effects. I am running at 80/100/300 mg's of 6-OXO, 7-OXO-DHEA, and DHEA ed respectively and am really enjoying the benefits. Energy is comparable to that of when I was running test/tren/sd. I am going to continue at those dosages for at least another week to see if it is placebo effect or otherwise. I have lost some LBM, but I think that was mostly the effects of the cold.
bows PCT cycle
03-07-2005, 12:49 PM
03-09-2005, 11:57 AM
Hey guys. This is my first PCT with DHEA and I would have to say that I'm really impressed so far (I just concluded a 4 week cycle of SD and 14diol). I've been taking Dr. D's suggestion of 100mg in the morning (6:00a.m.) and 100mg at around noon along with 30mg of nolva. My energy levels and mood are above normal. I also just started taking ALCAR at 1 gram in the morning and around noon. I think this might be helping as well. I read somewhere that DHEA exerts some of its effects through carnitine in the body (not really sure how). Maybe you could fill me in a little Dr. D if you've heard anything about this. Also Bow, I have noticed slight vasodilating effects at the gym since using DHEA.
03-09-2005, 12:12 PM
How is your progress going with your dosing protocol? thanx
My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
03-09-2005, 02:18 PM
Since starting on the DHEA transdermal, I have noticed the same. Nothing dramatic, but more of a pump than usual during workouts. I am not taking any other type of NO supplement, so I believe the DHEA does have some vasoladating effect.Originally Posted by THE GREATEST
03-09-2005, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by motiv8er
So far, so good. Energy has remained excellent and lean body mass is holding. I have not noticed any effects of increased estrogen (water retention, puffy nipples, etc). However, the one thing I have learned is not too apply to the same body part twice in the same day. If you do, instant acne.
I am about out of this batch. I am considering lowering the dosage of dhea by 50 mg's day and increasing the 7-OXO dosage by that same amount. No real reason, just experiementing.
03-09-2005, 09:15 PM
Bow has the right idea, just experiment and see what works for you. But at 200mg/d or less, you really can't go wrong. I used to have a fat stack of DHEA research, and links (that computer is way gone) but I could probably find all that old info if you guys really need it. Just off the top of my head, it does cause vasodilation, but I don't remember the exact mechanism.
03-09-2005, 09:24 PM
I've been toying around with taking DHEA at 50mg oraly a day. After two or three days of taking it my nipples start to itch. I've started and stopped 3 times now, and every time I get some itching. I am not prone to gyno when using test, and this is such a small amount of DHEA I wouldn't have expected much from it. ??
03-10-2005, 03:53 PM
03-10-2005, 07:39 PM
I'm taking 300mg/day with KS Attack (4-6 caps/day in morning whith the DHEA) and haven't gotten any nightsweats. I'm only about 2 weeks in to the 4 week experiment so that might change.Originally Posted by bow
03-10-2005, 09:55 PM
Could be the melatonin antagonism if taken too late in the day, or the vasodilation, or the increased basal metabolism, or something just intrinsic to the hormone. Tren does it to alot of folks (not me) but it can also have to do with serotonergic or GABA interactions. I sweat at night when on SSRI's. May also have to do with a GH surge, like I said, my notes are piled away somewhere
03-10-2005, 10:27 PM
I read many researchs about dhea, at low dosages it is very ineffective, so why use it. and at high dosages it is harmful !
03-10-2005, 10:53 PM
There is a personal window of effectiveness, you must experiment to find what the rest of us have. I have already given you some good dose guidelines, now if you really want to know, start trying different doses at different times. You can have your own best system down in a few months I'd bet.Originally Posted by sicosico
05-16-2005, 12:26 PM
how about combining letro, nolva and dhea for pct/immune system recovery or even HRT/hormone balancing?
dhea 200mg oral ed...100mg/mor.&100mg/aft.
.25ml letro ed ..afternoon
10ml nolva ed..morning
2 days nolva and 1 day letro...the letro every 3rd day would wipe out most bloat and estrogen that nolva didn't block ..keep dhea at 200mg ed.
...this could be great for pct or immune system recovery and HRT imho.
05-16-2005, 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by Storm
Nolva is not going to do you much good. The goal is to keep the DHEA from aromatizing to estrogen. Nolva, being an SERM, is going to do little in those regards. About the only thing it is going to do is prevent the pituitary from being desensitized from the extra conversion to estrogen. Just stick with a moderate dose of an AI or a suicide inhibitor and you are golden.
05-16-2005, 01:15 PM
bow...if you use only AI and DHEA then you get virtually no aromatization...and virtually no circulating estrogen every day...not good for a cycle...short term yes..ie..estrogen bloat,etc
if you use SERM for 2 days and AI every third day..you get some aromatization/estrogen from DHEA which SERM can't block and every 3rd day use AI to remove the extra access estrogen buildup, etc.
I'm only saying I'm not sure it's such a great idea to totally remove virtually all estrogen everyday with AI..since estrogen is required at least to some degree to maintain/build muscle tissue along with T and for health in general.
05-16-2005, 01:25 PM
05-16-2005, 01:26 PM
I agree for the most part. I think the difference is that the dosing of the AI should only be enough to counteract the aromotization of the DHEA to E, not the armoitization of endgenous T to E. Thus, basal levels of E would esentially remain unchanged, alowing for endogenous production of gh, igf-1, etc.
05-16-2005, 02:22 PM
bow....agreed..just enough AI to counteract exact aromatization. I'm concerned the AI will kill too much E if ed..for pct to bring the boys back it's pretty much required to use SERM ..otherwise if we were looking at only immune/HRT then the SERM may not even be necessary and AI 2x/week would probably suffice.
syr...dhea is produced by the adrenals..the adrenals are part of the powerhouse of the immune system..along with the lymph, etc...supplementing with dhea can assist and help rebuild the adrenals..hence immune system. Adrenal exhaustion is very common..especially with atheletes and those who take ECA, etc. Check out lef.org..or do a search..plenty of info on this on the web!
05-16-2005, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Storm
Exactally. That is where the guessing begins. Without accurate blood tests, it is going to be really difficult to get the dosing correct. Everything to this point is just an eductated guess. So, I hear what you saying
05-17-2005, 09:57 PM
That won't work guys, your better off taking it everyday at very low doses. like 5-10mg Nolva and 0.05-0.1mg letro. You have the right idea but the half-lives of these compounds are too long to work like your suggesting. Nolva has a 5 day t1/2, so by the third day, over half of the last dose is still in you. Same with the letro (36hr t1/2) Just take ultra low doses to attenuate estrogen biosynthesis w/out killing it. I can say from personal experience that 0.1mg letro controls up to 600mg test cyp/wk, so the very low amout of estrogen formed from DHEA is no match even for a low dose of letro. I don't even use an AI with DHEA. It's more androgenic than anything.
05-17-2005, 10:31 PM
So what's the bottom line with DHEA? 50 - 200mg in the morning ed? Couldn't conclude from this post if it could be a constant cycle or just useful during PCT.
05-18-2005, 05:53 AM
After a cycle, levels are low and it is most useful. Start at 200mg/d (100mg AM, 100mg Noon) and ramp down about 50 mg every 1-2wks as test starts to come back up.Originally Posted by fightercowboy
05-18-2005, 10:32 AM
Thanks Dr. D! Considering the half-lives of those compounds the protocol you mention makes a lot of sense!
Dr. D, do you believe that this type of protocol could be used as an HRT protocol for someone over 40? Do you recommend 50mg/ed for long term after T is back up? If so would a 2x/week AI be a good idea to control the excess E from the daily use of dhea? Supposedly the oral bioavailibity is 4-5% by the time is passes the liver so a person would get 2.5mg at 5%..I'm not sure that is enough to make a difference? What about crushing the pill into a powder and mixing it with an oil and perhaps eating a high fat meal..this would perhaps protect some of it from the liver with the oil/fat and allow for more dhea to get through.
Your thoughts please on dhea for purposes of HRT are appreciated!
05-18-2005, 09:40 PM
Oh yeah! You have the same idea as I do. I've said it before, I'll be using DHEA as an old man, post-anabolics, forever! As long as my prostate doesn't complain. It's the most abundant steroid in the human body, and theoretically prolongs one's life by sparing adrenal production. It's 'anti-aging' effects have some interesting implications, but who knows. I just trust it. I feel that it's oral absorbtion is best with a fatty meal or with oils and lecithin (~5:1 ratio). I start getting acne and sides when I exceed 200mg, so it must be well absorbed or else it's strength is greatly underestimated, so 50mg/day, even on cycle, is OK. I used to do that, but it adds androgenic sides to dirty cycles. I bet it would stack clean with deca or SD or something like that. You could use letro 0.1mg EOD or 2x/wk but it may be more harm than good, unless your lipids remain unaffected and in good shape. I've never been suppressed by DHEA or suffered any estrogenic sides though, even with massive doses experiments. 5AD on the other hand is an even better immune stimulator, but gyno in a pill too. Stay away from that stuff unless you need to exaggerate estrogen intentionally.Originally Posted by Storm
05-19-2005, 04:48 PM
I have to say out all the supps I have used over the years,DHEA is one I have proof that works..Im 46 and about a year ago I started to have a hard time reading a magazine or a map.I went out and bought reading glasses ad just accepted the fact that I was geting old.I started taking 500mg a day on DHEA and after a month I did not need the glasses.I could not believe t was from the DHEA so I stopped taking it and in 3 weeks I was right back to the glasses.I supplement with 500mg of DHEA and 100mg of Pregnelone as well then at night I take 8 mg of melatonin..These 3 supps. are marketed as an anti-aging in alot of products..Seems to work at least for me..Originally Posted by DR.D
05-19-2005, 07:09 PM
I believe it man, it's a great supp. Makes my muscles feel harder too and my cuts look clean. DHEA and melatonin work together with each other.Originally Posted by MaDmaN
05-20-2005, 08:45 AM
DR.D what are you thoughts on Pregnenolone,I take 100mg a day of that along with the DHEA.Is this overkill ?....Thanks
05-20-2005, 09:56 AM
Is it best to use dhea or something like 7-keto? Not sure, just wondering. Also I saw 1fast has it for 25$ for 25grams at 99.5% purity? Not sure what the price is on this, i checked the sponsers and none of them had bulk powder of just dhea. Also if there are better prices with good purity, could you point me there. I saw some said bac, not sure what place that is.
For someone of younger age. would this be most benificial after or cycle, or just an overall supp? I plan on using it in pct at 300mg/d. Not sure if I should cap this, or just add it to my shake. Any advice would be great.
Last thing, would trandsermal be a much better route for this? Do I just mix the dhea in the dermal carrier like I would any other powder?
05-21-2005, 10:43 AM
I take 100mg preg every morning when I'm on, but not during PCT, but I don't think it would hurt to take it all the time. Suppose to be a great memory enhancer with other various neuroprotective benefits too. Some of it will metabolise into DHEA, if your body needs it or your enzymes allow for it. So I don't think it's overkill, I wouldn't get silly with the dose though, it could form progesterone too at high doses which makes me a little nervous.Originally Posted by MaDmaN
05-21-2005, 11:03 AM
7-keto and 7-hydroxy forms are tailored to offer the anti-cortisol effects with minimal androgenicity. It won't restore libido like DHEA, but has it's place, especially in the first few weeks of PCT stacked with creatine or P.Serine. The 1fast stuff is a good deal, you could cap it or put it in a pro shake. BAC isn't bad either, they both assay pretty pure, but 1fast was a little stronger. I'm in my early 30's and only use DHEA for PCT, but after 40 or 50 may take it daily, if I've given up the juice. But that's not to say it would help on cycle, I just don't employee it that way usually. I've never tried it trans because it seems to be relatively well absorbed from the gut, but you can get at least 3.5% in 190 proof alcohol, so it's a viable option. I suspect you could get up to 10% in absolute ethanol.Originally Posted by snakebyte05
05-21-2005, 11:45 AM
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