REAL KILLERS

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    REAL KILLERS


    just do your research .. the government is not all ways right... and only cares about lining there greedy pockets...

    The dangers of acetaminophen, especially in combination with alcohol, have been reported in the medical literature since the 1960s, although they were not always disclosed on the Tylenol labeling and packaging. These dangers were reported in a September 2013 episode of This American Life entitled "Use Only as Directed"[15] and in two investigative articles in ProPublica[16][17]

    This American Life reported that "acetaminophen, the active ingredient in Tylenol ... kills the most people [of any over-the-counter drug], according to data from the federal government. Over 150 Americans die each year". This assessment conflicts with assessments in the medical literature, which suggest that the most commonly used alternative to acetaminophen, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (including naproxen, ibuprofen, and aspirin) cause 3200 deaths and 32,000 hospitalizations each year due to gastric bleeding alone.[18] Other estimates place the number of NSAID-related deaths from gastric bleeding as high as 16,000 per year. [19] The apparent discrepancy may arise because the PBS assessment relied exclusively on reports from poison control centers. Such centers are unlikely to report gastric bleeding episodes as NSAID-related, as such episodes may be caused by factors other than NSAID use, and are associated more closely with chronic use rather than acute overdose.

    ProPublica reported that the "FDA has long been aware of studies showing the risks of acetaminophen. So has the maker of Tylenol, McNeil Consumer Healthcare, a division of Johnson & Johnson" and "McNeil, the maker of Tylenol ... has repeatedly opposed safety warnings, dosage restrictions and other measures meant to safeguard users of the drug." This included warnings of liver damage and warnings about using acetaminophen in combination with alcohol. This is especially dangerous because of acetaminophen's narrow safety margin. ProPublica interviewed a man who had liver failure after using Tylenol in the recommended dose and drinking two or three glasses of wine, at a time when the Tylenol label didn't mention any dangers of drinking.

    Acetaminophen, including Tylenol, causes three times as many cases of liver failure as all other drugs combined,[20] and is the most common cause of acute liver failure in the United States,[21][22] accounting for 39% of cases.
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    So I should take tudca while dosing cherry tylenol?
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    Is this where I sign up for the Militia?.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Dan View Post
    I guess it was probably a bad idea to take my tylenol, SD, O.G. OxyELITE Pro, all together while washing it down with a high percentage alcohol/volume beer....
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    The funny thing is NSAIDs are OTC, not prescribed. You can only use NSAIDs is you use them by choice. In other words, people are dying from their own choice to use these things. First people want more control over what they putin their body. Now they get it and some people get side effects (which are written as warnings right on the bottle). What exactly do you anti-government people want...more freedom, or less? More safety regulations and loss of control over your actions, or less? People can't seem to make up their minds.
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    Also, tylenol, the #1 cause of fulminant hepatitis as you bolded, only has this effect if overdosed. Again, the fault of the consumer, not the government. NSAIDs have revolutionized improvements in quality of life for millions of people...are you saying we should withdraw them because people overdose?
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    People don't view these things as real "drugs" and pop em like skittles without either knowing or caring about the long term consequences.
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    I like how this post starts with "just do your research" and then proceeds to be a complete copy and paste from wikipedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Also, tylenol, the #1 cause of fulminant hepatitis as you bolded, only has this effect if overdosed. Again, the fault of the consumer, not the government. NSAIDs have revolutionized improvements in quality of life for millions of people...are you saying we should withdraw them because people overdose?
    Based on a previous post of his I think he's coming from a perspective of that if it was really consumer safety that legislators were concerned about, they'd focus their efforts on specific OTC drugs that have killed many times over the number of people who may have been killed by PHs/DSs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony soprano View Post
    Based on a previous post of his I think he's coming from a perspective of that if it was really consumer safety that legislators were concerned about, they'd focus their efforts on specific OTC drugs that have killed many times over the number of people who may have been killed by PHs/DSs.
    Oh. Well in that case, what does he want them to do about NSAIDs? The solution is to make them prescription or pull them from the market...which I don't think anybody wants
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Oh. Well in that case, what does he want them to do about NSAIDs? The solution is to make them prescription or pull them from the market...which I don't think anybody wants
    Well, he'll have to answer that question himself. My own thoughts on the issue are that legislators, and people in general, need to recognize that you can't idiot proof life. As soon as you have, someone will just create a better idiot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony soprano View Post
    Well, he'll have to answer that question himself. My own thoughts on the issue are that legislators, and people in general, need to recognize that you can't idiot proof life. As soon as you have, someone will just create a better idiot.
    Pretty much lol. His argument would hold a lot more water if it was something that wasn't actually therapeutic, e.g. alcohol. There's a reason that every single drug falls under the classification of "drug addiction" but alcohol has its own disease: "alcoholism." Because drinking in excess kills, withdrawal from alcohol kills (fairly unique to alcohol), DUIs kill, longterm complications like liver failure kill, the list goes on
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Pretty much lol. His argument would hold a lot more water if it was something that wasn't actually therapeutic, e.g. alcohol. There's a reason that every single drug falls under the classification of "drug addiction" but alcohol has its own disease: "alcoholism." Because drinking in excess kills, withdrawal from alcohol kills (fairly unique to alcohol), DUIs kill, longterm complications like liver failure kill, the list goes on
    Yes, alcohol would have been a more apt comparison. In fact, you hear the alcohol/marijuana comparison made frequently in the argument to legalize marijuana.

    At some point though, and I don't know if PHs/DSs are that inflection point, you just have to recognize there are a lot of stupid people in the world that are going to hurt themselves with their own stupidity. Although they keep trying, you can't legislate against every single substance that foolish people are going to harm themselves with.
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    yes i did cut and past it was the easy button . ...and after spending hours on the FDA, CFD. pro publica, web sights to find out if this where true. i found there where a lot more otc drug deaths out there...

    i also found out that there is less than 5 Anabolic steroid deaths a year.. any body know that. and most are because they are dumb asses.

    and i do agree you cant fix stupid... hell if you eat to much nutmeg it can kill you..lol

    i guess what im trying to say here is it pisses me off when people are so blind and dead set on trying to make AS/PH peptides sups even more illegal when there are worst things out there that are otc... after discussing this with some friends...the comment was made that the AS community doesn't have a leg to stand on.. i called bull **** and went hunting and found..... less people die from A.S.then all most any other drugs.... we where all shocked ...if any thing they should all be legal ...IMHO just ranting and pissed really. looking for a better solution than more bands.
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    If people read the label it clearly states the dosage at which gi bleeding occurs.... I don't understand, let the stupid people be stupid. Why take an effective drug off the market because a few dumbasses take to many and bleed out their gi tract?

    You seem like the type of person to let one guy ruin it for everyone. Just like steroids, if you over dose those then you'll have a slew of internal issues.

    Using any drug properly is the only way to ensure your safety. (Minus allergies and odd reactions etc)
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBUSA View Post
    less people die from A.S.then all most any other drugs.... we where all shocked ...if any thing they should all be legal ...IMHO just ranting and pissed really. looking for a better solution than more bands.
    Maybe. It's actually the FDA approved illegal AAS that are a lot more safe. It's these crappy OTC PS/PH/DS products that are harmful. Produced somewhere out of the country, most likely in China, you have no clue what is in that crap. The argument that NSAIDS cause more harm just doesn't make much sense. How does that even factor in?. All of these "designer steroids" are labeled as dietary supplements. That's just wrong. It's ridiculous to think nobody would ever catch on to that and no one would ever be fooled into thinking these "supplements" were safe to consume. Not everyone googles each and every ingredient on a bottle. More than half the people that consume this crap probably have no clue what it is. After all it doesn't say its a steroid on the bottle right?. Did you know SuperDrol, when it was first released was supposedly "safe" on the liver?. Labels should be more clear, you can't essentially fool people into taking AAS by marketing it as a supplement and get away with it for very long. Sure people can be idiots but with these products it just makes it much much easier for them to be ignorant and dumb. Also how do you make something, "even more illegal"?. It's either illegal or its not. Comparisons to alcohol or cigarettes just don't make sense, that's just completely out of left field to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBUSA View Post
    yes i did cut and past it was the easy button . ...and after spending hours on the FDA, CFD. pro publica, web sights to find out if this where true. i found there where a lot more otc drug deaths out there...

    i also found out that there is less than 5 Anabolic steroid deaths a year.. any body know that. and most are because they are dumb asses.

    and i do agree you cant fix stupid... hell if you eat to much nutmeg it can kill you..lol

    i guess what im trying to say here is it pisses me off when people are so blind and dead set on trying to make AS/PH peptides sups even more illegal when there are worst things out there that are otc... after discussing this with some friends...the comment was made that the AS community doesn't have a leg to stand on.. i called bull **** and went hunting and found..... less people die from A.S.then all most any other drugs.... we where all shocked ...if any thing they should all be legal ...IMHO just ranting and pissed really. looking for a better solution than more bands.
    I kind of see where you are going with this, but you have to put stats in percentages in relation to total populations. Far more people use acetaminophen than AAS. That like saying that falling off of a cliff is OK because more people died last year from car accidents than cliff falls last year. There is a benefit to risk ratio with any drug and common sense plays a fairly large part.
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    All that's needed is better public/consumer education in regards to NSAID use(won't save everyone, but whatever). Most people have an inkling that they are "bad" for the liver, but not a clear enough idea of what "bad" really is..eg. combined with the additional toxic insult of alcohol, other drugs, or overdosing. In many cases, chronic overdosing of NSAIDs reflects desperation for pain control and I'm not going to write those people off as stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    I kind of see where you are going with this, but you have to put stats in percentages in relation to total populations. Far more people use acetaminophen than AAS. That like saying that falling off of a cliff is OK because more people died last year from car accidents than cliff falls last year. There is a benefit to risk ratio with any drug and common sense plays a fairly large part.
    Good point. If NSAID and AAS use were equivalent, there'd be a lot more than 5 deaths per annum. Those 5 deaths are likely attributable to stupidity, but no one keeps stats on the number of AAS users with long term complications brought on by chronic use. I believe those numbers are pretty significant and our community gets a little too defensive of AAS, particularly DS, without having solid data.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    All that's needed is better public/consumer education in regards to NSAID use(won't save everyone, but whatever). Most people have an inkling that they are "bad" for the liver, but not a clear enough idea of what "bad" really is..eg. combined with the additional toxic insult of alcohol, other drugs, or overdosing. In many cases, chronic overdosing of NSAIDs reflects desperation for pain control and I'm not going to write those people off as stupid.
    I think the education bit is the real solution, but that would be hard and no single person could really take credit for it because results would take years. The people in government can, however, take credit for a law that they passed.

    I have said since I was in high school that drug laws don't make any sense. In reality, the only reason to make a drug illegal is because it posses an economic cost to society - it's use causes deaths, lost work, increased crime, whatever. Alcohol and cigarettes are THE two drugs that have created the greatest economic cost to society and yet they are legal and often not even thought of as drugs. Even better, they serve very little "functional" purpose.

    If alcohol and cigarettes are legal, why are cocaine and heroin legal? Many people will say, "Safety" or "You can get addicted so easily", or some such rubbish, but I suspect the people on this board realize that safety is not a line in the sand and is always moving, and you can get addicted to many drugs. I'm not backing the use of hard drugs by any means and I have never really even drank much, but people have a completely uneducated view on drugs and chemicals and more laws are not the answer.

    Also, not to get political - but I am a conservative and not a fan of Howard Zinn - but his book clearly shows that the FDA was NEVER intended to protect consumers.

    The FDA was started under Teddy Roosevelt. Long story short, the meat companies packed rotten beef into cans that were being shipped to the military for war-time rations. There was no war, so they figured they would use the rotten meat and no one would eat it. We then got involved in a war, more people died from rotten canned meat than the war itself, and Europeans would no longer eat American made meat (one of our largest exports). The meat companies lobbied Roosevelt to create a "watchdog" so that the Europeans would believe the problem was solved and consumer confidence would be restored. They knew what the problem was all along, and it was solved, but this was a way out and Roosevelt began what later became the FDA.

    Go figure...
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    Agreed. I'm not arguing for any sort of ban on anything but I think if you're going to sell poison, you are at least semi-responsible for letting the consumer know what they are buying into. Same rationale for GMO foods..some are great, some not so good, but the public deserves to have the choice without having to do detective work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    Agreed. I'm not arguing for any sort of ban on anything but I think if you're going to sell poison, you are at least semi-responsible for letting the consumer know what they are buying into. Same rationale for GMO foods..some are great, some not so good, but the public deserves to have the choice without having to do detective work.
    I agree.. it's all about educating people .
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