Bcaa thoughts

[djbombsquad]

Has anyone seen these studies on bcaas. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049458/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20832409/

 

[Aleksandar37]

They're stretching a wee bit

 

[djbombsquad]

Bump !!

 

[Aleksandar37]

The first one isn't a study, but an intro and summary of the second one. The second one, the paper by Carunchio et al., found that if you feed mice BCAAs, then they show neuronal hyperexcitability in culture and slice preps (both of these preps of course lose regulation that would be there in vivo in an intact brain). The hyperexcitability that they observed is similar to what was observed in their genetic model of ALS which uses a mutation in SOD1 (note that over 100 mutations in SOD1 have been linked with ALS and they are running with just one of those). Nobody has been able to actually show a link between this hyperexcitability and ALS, though there is a lot of interest in that area. So yes, they are stretching.

 

[Herm]

So your saying bcaa s could really mess your brain up?

 

[Aleksandar37]

So your saying bcaa s could really mess your brain up?

Me? No. I already drank my first of the day PES Amino IV this morning and will have another tonight during training. I'm saying that this study makes huge leaps using limited science and has shown absolutely no correlation between their findings and what they claim their findings say.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

what? a study that is full of shinola? impossible :no:

LOL wow I have seen it all now, BCAAs cause ALS
NOW we finally know what PEDs Lou Gehrig was using back in 1930...

shrewd

 

[brad1224]

honestly seems like they have tons of studies that say that something is bad for you then they will have just the same amount or more that say that it will do no harm. these studies should be read but just keep in mind that there are more studies

 

[Monte Brogan]

Has anyone seen these studies on bcaas. Stronger is not always better: could a bodybuilding dietary supplement lead to ALS? Increased levels of p70S6 phosphorylati - PubMed Mobile

Thanks for posting - first time I've seen this. ALS is a severe neurodegenerative disorder and a devastating diagnosis. This study raises some interesting questions. The Carunchio et al study is dated 2010; I will check to see if similar research has been published since that time.Monte

 

[Monte Brogan]

Me? No. I already drank my first of the day PES Amino IV this morning and will have another tonight during training. I'm saying that this study makes huge leaps using limited science and has shown absolutely no correlation between their findings and what they claim their findings say.

That's a bit dismissive, isn't it? In response, the scientists from Northwestern Univeristy prepared a reasonable critique, saying the data is thought-provoking but more work needs to be done. I only have access to the Carunchio abstract but it didn't appear to make definitive comments around the relationship between BCAA consumption and sporadic ALS. Monte

 

[Jiigzz]

That's a bit dismissive, isn't it? In response, the scientists from Northwestern Univeristy prepared a reasonable critique, saying the data is thought-provoking but more work needs to be done. I only have access to the Carunchio abstract but it didn't appear to make definitive comments around the relationship between BCAA consumption and sporadic ALS. Monte

Alex is very educated. I trust his opinion on the matter

 

[Monte Brogan]

Alex is very educated. I trust his opinion on the matter

The scientists from Northwestern University are very educated, as well.

 

[Jiigzz]

The scientists from Northwestern University are very educated, as well.

But without reading the FT, you have no idea how substantive the evidence is.

 

[Monte Brogan]

But without reading the FT, you have no idea how substantive the evidence is.

You're right - I don't. But the Northwestern U. scientists do and they wrote what seems like a balanced response. I think it's worth reading.

 

[Jiigzz]

You're right - I don't. But the Northwestern U. scientists do and they wrote what seems like a balanced response. I think it's worth reading.

Most studies than cannot find causation state that further research is necessary.

 

[Aleksandar37]

That's a bit dismissive, isn't it? In response, the scientists from Northwestern Univeristy prepared a reasonable critique, saying the data is thought-provoking but more work needs to be done. I only have access to the Carunchio abstract but it didn't appear to make definitive comments around the relationship between BCAA consumption and sporadic ALS. Monte

Can you please link me to the critique you mentioned, I probably know them. And I didn't mean to be so harsh towards the article, but I still maintain that they shouldn't even mention ALS which they do. I was more responding to "So your saying bcaa s could really mess your brain up?" when I was pretty clear why this study shows absolutely zero link between BCAA and ALS. A quick net search will show that this article has been used on several other boards to try and show that there is a link and I am trying to avoid that.

 

[Monte Brogan]

Most studies than cannot find causation state that further research is necessary.

True. And that is a fair position for a researcher to take when the evidence is inconclusive.

 

[Monte Brogan]

Can you please link me to the critique you mentioned, I probably know them. And I didn't mean to be so harsh towards the article, but I still maintain that they shouldn't even mention ALS which they do. I was more responding to "So your saying bcaa s could really mess your brain up?" when I was pretty clear why this study shows absolutely zero link between BCAA and ALS. A quick net search will show that this article has been used on several other boards to try and show that there is a link and I am trying to avoid that.

Aleks, I was referring to this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049458/

I didn't realize you were replying to that "mess up your brain question." I agree - there is no firm evidence to support such a claim. I did notice the study on some other forums after OP posted it here.

The BCAA-sporadic ALS-hyperexcitability concept is intersting but far from conclusive. ALS is a confounding condition whose genesis is poorly understood. But people who suffer from this horrific condition would likely welcome any research.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Aleks, I was referring to this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049458/

I didn't realize you were replying to that "mess up your brain question." I agree - there is no firm evidence to support such a claim. I did notice the study on some other forums after OP posted it here.

The BCAA-sporadic ALS-hyperexcitability concept is intersting but far from conclusive. ALS is a confounding condition whose genesis is poorly understood. But people who suffer from this horrific condition would likely welcome any research.

I read that as well, but dismissed it as it isn't a study itself. It's a book report on the Carunchio paper written by a post-doc. Here's my issue with both and hopefully it will give you a better picture of why I have issues with them even mentioning ALS. The Carunchio paper found an interesting physiological phenomenon. They fed mice BCAA and saw hyperexcitability in some neurons that were either cultured in a dish or in a brain slice. Both of these brain preps are important and have led to an endless amount of medical science breakthroughs, but I still am more convinced when people repeat these experiments in vivo in an intact animal, partially because that is what I have done and partially because hyperexcitability can easily rely on those connections that are lost when the brain is not intact. It's also a pretty generic phenomenon that can be caused by countless reasons.

But here is my problem with the link to ALS. This group found a phenomenon that does not occur in ALS and has not been shown to have any link to ALS. This phenomenon occurs in their very specific genetic model of ALS, of which there are literally hundreds and every group thinks their model is the answer. However, finding a cool physiological phenomenon isn't always enough to get a paper published in the journal that they want to publish in, so they have to bedazzle it and talk about something that will catch people's attention.

I do sympathize with individuals and families that suffer from ALS and other diseases. I also know firsthand how much funding for this research completely blows and the need to exaggerate to get findings out in the public, but that can also give those suffering from these diseases false hope.

 

[Steveoph]

Good points all around and I concur re: the dangers of overzealous extrapolation.

 

[Monte Brogan]

I read that as well, but dismissed it as it isn't a study itself. It's a book report on the Carunchio paper written by a post-doc. Here's my issue with both and hopefully it will give you a better picture of why I have issues with them even mentioning ALS. The Carunchio paper found an interesting physiological phenomenon. They fed mice BCAA and saw hyperexcitability in some neurons that were either cultured in a dish or in a brain slice. Both of these brain preps are important and have led to an endless amount of medical science breakthroughs, but I still am more convinced when people repeat these experiments in vivo in an intact animal, partially because that is what I have done and partially because hyperexcitability can easily rely on those connections that are lost when the brain is not intact. It's also a pretty generic phenomenon that can be caused by countless reasons.

But here is my problem with the link to ALS. This group found a phenomenon that does not occur in ALS and has not been shown to have any link to ALS. This phenomenon occurs in their very specific genetic model of ALS, of which there are literally hundreds and every group thinks their model is the answer. However, finding a cool physiological phenomenon isn't always enough to get a paper published in the journal that they want to publish in, so they have to bedazzle it and talk about something that will catch people's attention.

I do sympathize with individuals and families that suffer from ALS and other diseases. I also know firsthand how much funding for this research completely blows and the need to exaggerate to get findings out in the public, but that can also give those suffering from these diseases false hope.

Aleks, terrific points. I often enjoy reading the book report/critique papers published in response to actual studies. It's refreshing to see other experts in the field comment on the data.

You make a very valid point about the desire for papers to get published and the often sensationalistic headlines/conclusions. One would hope medical professionals would not succumb to such base tactics but scientists are flawed like the rest of us. I try to keep that in mind and maintain a critical eye.

I applaud any research of this nature. All diseases bring varying degrees of pain and challenges but neurodegenerative diseases are a special piece of hell. People in my family have died and are afflicted currently by such diseases, which more often than not lack robust treatment options.

Be well,
Monte

 

[Monte Brogan]

Good points all around and I concur re: the dangers of overzealous extrapolation.

Steve, thanks. The dangers of "overzealous extrapolation" - I like that and will use it in the future.

Monte

 

[snagencyV2.0]

The scientists from Northwestern University are very educated.

that too is a very dangerous extrapolation
"well they are scientists at a big school, so the study MUST have some merit"
1+1 does not always = 2, in the land of scientific studies

 

[Monte Brogan]

that too is a very dangerous extrapolation
"well they are scientists at a big school, so the study MUST have some merit"
1+1 does not always = 2, in the land of scientific studies

Stating that scientists from a highly regarded university are "highly educated" is anything but "dangerous extrapolation."

 

[snagencyV2.0]

Stating that scientists from a highly regarded university are "highly educated" is anything but "dangerous extrapolation."

you went a little beyond that
in actuality, you used the premise of their intelligence, as your sole basis for agreeing with their elusive "conclusion"
you cited no factual relevance of your own
that would be called an appeal to authority
ie, a worthless extrapolation

 

[Monte Brogan]

you went a little beyond that
in actuality, you used the premise of their intelligence, as your sole basis for agreeing with their elusive "conclusion"
you cited no factual relevance of your own
that would be called an appeal to authority
ie, a worthless extrapolation

You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Nowhere in this post did I agree with their conclusions. I said their opinion deserves to be considered as it raised interesting questions. I agreed with Aleks' critique on numerous points; just stated the Northwestern critique deserves to be heard, as well.

Re-read the entire thread before running off at the mouth, misrepresenting my position and making unfunny Lou Gehrig remarks.

Monte

 

[snagencyV2.0]

ouch?

someone has their panties twisted
not looking for an argument from you amigo, but thanks for your feedback on my lou Gehrig remark
perhaps i'll leave that out of my next stand-up routine

 

[Montego1]

I did a study.

Bcaa's didn't ruin my brain. And I'm a genius.

 

[djbombsquad]

I did a study. Bcaa's didn't ruin my brain. And I'm a genius.

Really? That is the dumbest think iv heard all day!!!!

 

[BPjohn123]

Really? That is the dumbest think iv herd all day!!!!

Wow

 

[Jiigzz]

Really? That is the dumbest think iv herd all day!!!!

Heard*

unless you herd dumb people all day in which i stand corrected

 

[bean5er]

Really? That is the dumbest think iv herd all day!!!!

speechless!!

 

[mr.cooper69]

I did a study.

Bcaa's didn't ruin my brain. And I'm a genius.

For every study, there is a counter study:

Really? That is the dumbest think iv herd all day!!!!

 

[snagencyV2.0]

^^ lol
in the latter study however, it was noted that they used the transdermal BCAA patches

 

[Montego1]

For every study, there is a counter study:

It was a double blind study by Ray Charles and Homer.

 

[Billy R]

Other studies show that BCAA's are useful for people with ALS... http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=21527 http://www.webmd.com/brain/understanding-als-treatment