Muscle Sparing on EC Stack

Grayson

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Obviously this all comes down to diet and macros, but theoretically if one is under 500 cals they shouldn't lose that much muscle.

I'm 175 lbs with about 17% bf, so my macros are roughly 250g protein/100g carbs (centered around training)/50 g fats

Would supplementing with DAA or even Hica Chews help out with muscle sparing or does EC already have these properties?
 
kbayne

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EC is actually great for muscle sparing. Adding HICA or Leucine wouldn't hurt.
 
Grayson

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EC is actually great for muscle sparing. Adding HICA or Leucine wouldn't hurt.
Yeah, and I was thinking of adding 5-10grams of bcaa's pre and post, but would just leucine by itself help?
 
kbayne

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mpaquett

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1000kcal protein + 400kcal carbs + 450kcal fats = 1850kcals (seems low to me)

Were you subtracting the 500kcals from your basal metabolic rate or you total daily energy expenditure? My 5'7 145lbs girlfriend is cutting and we started here off with 1900kcals/1500kcals (2 high/1 low scheme). Also, how did you come up with 17%bf?
 

mr.cooper69

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^^^ You know what will spare muscle? Not eating at such a huge deficit. More fats and carbs are indicated
 

JD261985

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You should be able to know how much you're eating and what caloric intake keeps you at maintenance. You subtract 500 calories from that. If you're eating 3500 calories a day right now and decide to drop to 2500 in a cut expect to lose a shyt load of muscle. You can lower carbs when you lower calories but make sure you have a refeed each week. This is why I count my macros if I don't I'm ****ed for my cut
 
GeekPoop

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I usually start with 200-300 deficits
 
Grayson

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I'm 175lbs, so 175*13.5 = 2360. And the body fat percentage is a rough estimation using a bb.com caliper.

I've taken all of your advice and placed into the excel sheet below. How does it look?

Macro.jpg


I've never attempted anything like this before because I've always dieted too quickly. For the first week I'll be eating at maintenance and then slowly reduce my calories.
 
GeekPoop

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spreadsheet looks a like what I would suggest. Don't go off it 100%, you maybe able to stretch a 100calorie drop for a month or two and still lose weight!
 
Grayson

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spreadsheet looks a like what I would suggest. Don't go off it 100%, you maybe able to stretch a 100calorie drop for a month or two and still lose weight!
Awesome! Thank you!

I plan on doing EC for about 15-20 weeks, so I'll stretch the 100-300 cal drops a little longer.

Would an IF dieting approach with EC work well?

Also, how soon after can I eat after taking EC?
 
mpaquett

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Awesome! Thank you!

I plan on doing EC for about 15-20 weeks, so I'll stretch the 100-300 cal drops a little longer.

Would an IF dieting approach with EC work well?

Also, how soon after can I eat after taking EC?
Yes, it works with EC. I was just doing that during my recomp. EC helps a lot with cutting down on appetite.

Have you ever considered calorie cycling? Instead of eating the same amount everyday eating closer to/at maintenance on days you lift, and then dropping your calories down on "off" days? You can add in cardio to help create a larger deficit. Just don't over do it with the cardio.
 
Grayson

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Yes, it works with EC. I was just doing that during my recomp. EC helps a lot with cutting down on appetite.

Have you ever considered calorie cycling? Instead of eating the same amount everyday eating closer to/at maintenance on days you lift, and then dropping your calories down on "off" days? You can add in cardio to help create a larger deficit. Just don't over do it with the cardio.
What are the benefits of calorie cycling to straight caloric deficits?

Also, I will be incorporating refeeds every 14 days.
 
mpaquett

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What are the benefits of calorie cycling to straight caloric deficits?

Also, I will be incorporating refeeds every 14 days.
Personal preference. I, personally, don't see the need to have the same amount of calories when on days when I spend 60-90 minutes in the gym lifting compared to days that I do not lift; so I always have a greater deficit on days when I don't lift. The deficit typically comes from less carbohydrate intake on off days.
 
Grayson

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Personal preference. I, personally, don't see the need to have the same amount of calories when on days when I spend 60-90 minutes in the gym lifting compared to days that I do not lift; so I always have a greater deficit on days when I don't lift. The deficit typically comes from less carbohydrate intake on off days.
Interesting. I'll take that into account, but for now I'm going to stick with a strict caloric deficit. I've updated the worksheet to incorporate for 18 weeks:

Macro 2.jpg


Has anyone had any trouble running test boosters or NO boosters like KNO3 with EC? Plus once I get comfortable and have upped the dosage to the recommended amount, I will be incorporating forskolin and yohimbine.

edit: it's supposed to say cals/week
 
mpaquett

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-Stim-free pres are fine with EC; just don't over do it with the nitrates.
-Grab some Forskolin 95 at 100mg a day for 12 weeks
-don't combine YHCl with E. Most people do not tolerate it well at all. I tolerate YHCl great, but can't do it with E. I break them apart and will do 1-2 doses of YC fasted and if I do a third dose I'll do EC, but they're all always 4 hours minimum spread out.
 
fame126

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do you have to show id when u purchase as well? here im California you do and i was wondering at what point would they deem suspicious activity for buying too many boxes?
 
mpaquett

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do you have to show id when u purchase as well? here im California you do and i was wondering at what point would they deem suspicious activity for buying too many boxes?
Yes, had you read the box you probably had to sign it would have told you the maximum amount that you can purchase within an allotted time before I believe it's a misdemeanor in some places. Just call your local pharmacy and ask them. I wouldn't think it'd be anywhere near what you're taking.
 
fame126

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Yes, had you read the box you probably had to sign it would have told you the maximum amount that you can purchase within an allotted time before I believe it's a misdemeanor in some places. Just call your local pharmacy and ask them. I wouldn't think it'd be anywhere near what you're taking.
. ha ya i didnt read box i jus signed, i figure this box will last me almost a month.
 
fame126

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also, how long should i wait till i take another 25e 200c?
 
mpaquett

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also, how long should i wait till i take another 25e 200c?
4 hours minimum. I prefer closer to 6 personally. Take one dose prework out and if you want add in a stim free pre.
 
Young Gotti

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Yeah, and I was thinking of adding 5-10grams of bcaa's pre and post, but would just leucine by itself help?
i like that idea....imo bcaa's are really important to have around on a cut or anything that may affect your appetite, i've since transitioned to compete instead of bcaa's but having it around during workout or just anytime throughout the day is a good idea

of course your calories and macros will play a major role overall though
 
Grayson

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i like that idea....imo bcaa's are really important to have around on a cut or anything that may affect your appetite, i've since transitioned to compete instead of bcaa's but having it around during workout or just anytime throughout the day is a good idea of course your calories and macros will play a major role overall though
Agreed 100%

I've been taking Labrada's HICA 3x times a day and I've been utilizing a modified IF protocol. That along with pushing carbs to pre, Intra, and post on workout days, my goals are becoming a reality.

EC is not magic, but when utilized properly it is the most effective fat burning option out there.
 
Grayson

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So it's been around 2+ weeks since my initial post and I'm down about 5 pounds.

I started my test dose on dec 29 and have been tapering up since then. I'm now taking 25 E + 200 C + 81 A three times a day.

I ate at maintenance cals (2360) for the first week and then went down to 2315 for a few days and now I'm coasting at 2260.

My clothes are fitting loser but is there anyway to know if I'm losing muscle?
 
fame126

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my guess is if your on test you shouldn't be losing any muscle.
 
Synapsin

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So it's been around 2+ weeks since my initial post and I'm down about 5 pounds.

I started my test dose on dec 29 and have been tapering up since then. I'm now taking 25 E + 200 C + 81 A three times a day.

I ate at maintenance cals (2360) for the first week and then went down to 2315 for a few days and now I'm coasting at 2260.

My clothes are fitting loser but is there anyway to know if I'm losing muscle?
Only real way to know is if you measure your body fat % by doing something like a water density test, bodpod, etc.
 
Grayson

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Only real way to know is if you measure your body fat % by doing something like a water density test, bodpod, etc.
I wish I had access to those tools. Unfortunately, the only thing I have is a caliper and a $50 scale that's always reading my bodyfat between 27-28%... which cannot be right at all because the caliper says otherwise.
 
Synapsin

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I wish I had access to those tools. Unfortunately, the only thing I have is a caliper and a $50 scale that's always reading my bodyfat between 27-28%... which cannot be right at all because the caliper says otherwise.
The scales are worthless as you pointed out. If you don't have access to such tools, the only real way to tell is just looking at the mirror. You should do before and after pictures, its easier to be objective then to compare fat loss.
 
rosemont83

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I thought on an ECA you only have to dose the A for the morning dose?
While on the topic of muscle sparing.. between the ECA and ECY which would be better at muscle sparing?
 
Grayson

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I thought on an ECA you only have to dose the A for the morning dose?
While on the topic of muscle sparing.. between the ECA and ECY which would be better at muscle sparing?
Today was my first dose of A. I was only doing EC for the past 2 weeks and I took two doses of A.

Tomorrow I will just take 1.

This is the info that I found for ECY:

Information on the ECY stack:


Yohimbine HCl is added to Ephedrine and Caffeine

Yohimbine ≠ Yohimbe

Personally, I would not recommend doing the ECY stack, but if you are just so inclined to do it, go ahead and google how to run it. It would appear that the E+Y combination can be dangerous for your body. Yohimbine and Caffeine is a much better route to take if you are set on using yohimbine. There is a a bb.com thread about ECY you can google if you’re interested…

An excerpt from that thread: (Not saying this is true because I really don’t know if it is, just thought-provoking)

Quote
NOTE: It is research-documented that alpha-2 adrenoreceptor antagonism initiates a cascade that diminishes beta-adrenoreceptor mediated lipolysis (re: fat burning). Remember, ephedrine is a beta-receptor agonist, so by taking E + Y together, you're basically taking three steps forward and then one step back. Perhaps even more importantly E & Y together = a ton of central norepinephrine relay to the HPTA, which is EXTREMELY bad for you long-term for the following reasons: 1. extremely vasoconstrictive, both in sections of the brain and periperhally, 2. (from 1) there will be a significant elevation in blood pressure, 3. the HPTA (hypothalamus-pituary-thyroid-axis) is basically the 'master control switch' for an innumerable number of the body's metabolic and endocrine processes. Whereas dopamine and serotonin convey to the HPTA that there is positive energy influx, NE/NA (norepinephrine) is a stress-hormone, which is perfectly fine in the short-term for reducing appetite, providing energy while hypocaloric, and causing weight loss. Too-much continual stress-hormone signaling to the HPTA means your body thinks it's starving, seriously. That's why--short term, Y + E work fine. Long-term, they will diminish fat-loss, because they will literally **** over your metabolism from top to bottom. You need to achieve neurotransmitter/catecholamine balance: epinephrine: norepinephrine: dopamine. Taking E + Y together radically tilts the scale in the direction of norepinephrine, which, as I said, will diminish lipolysis long-term and will eventually bring your diet to a screeching halt (unless you are using an exogenous source of dopamine like nicotine to correct this deficiency, and even here, I still do not recommend the pairing based on the other aforementioned reasons). Again, think about it, I'm talking about your HPTA. So that includes a.) thyroid, b.) pituitary (which releases GnRH which, downstream, regulates testosterone levels), c.) hypothalamus (your body's primary 'control panel'). These are not components in your body that should be taking lightly. This is why so many contest dieters are forced to take cytomel, or cannot get their dick hard: because their body is so convinced that they are starving that their HPTA-regulated processes have entirely bottomed out. I sincerely hope everyone can see the significance of this, in terms of the "big picture."
 

chedapalooza

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Lots of smart guys in here so wondering if 15 days completely off of EC is enough time between 3 month runs?

I am using June, July, August then tapering off two weeks of September+last two weeks totally off. Then restarting first week of October until end of December.
 
Synapsin

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Lots of smart guys in here so wondering if 15 days completely off of EC is enough time between 3 month runs? I am using June, July, August then tapering off two weeks of September+last two weeks totally off. Then restarting first week of October until end of December.
I wouldn't bother going off tbh
 
Synapsin

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Seriously? Running 6 months basically of EC?? That can't be healthy. Using bronkaid --Long term use of the expectorant?
6 months is fine. If you are concerned, then take a at least a month off because 15 days isn't going to do anything.
 

chedapalooza

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There are human studies using it for 6 months. The only change notes was a DROP in bp
Wow hm ok. So no different in "rebound" from a 3 versus 6 month run, like metabolism won't be slowed down once off?
 

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