DIY GDA

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    Mim looking to make own GDA, using caps (no powders. I was thinking Na-rala with something... Can anyone who has done this chime in. So far I'm thinking : 500mg ALCAR 240-300mg Na-rala with something like bitter melon extract, Banaba, gymnema, or berberine, cinnamon extract and d-pinitol Which of these have people used? Trying to keep costs down All suggestions welcome. I can get applied NeoVar which has some of the mentioned ingredients in...

    Main aim is to increase insulin sensitivity/nutrient partitioning rather than simply glucose disposal.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post
    Mim looking to make own GDA, using caps (no powders. I was thinking Na-rala with something...

    Can anyone who has done this chime in.
    So far I'm thinking :
    500mg ALCAR
    240-300mg Na-rala with something like bitter melon extract, Banaba, gymnema, or berberine, cinnamon extract and d-pinitol Which of these have people used? Trying to keep costs down

    All suggestions welcome. I can get applied NeoVar which has some of the mentioned ingredients in...
    Recompadrol with dcp2.0 or slintensity has your bases covered
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post
    Mim looking to make own GDA, using caps (no powders. I was thinking Na-rala with something...

    Can anyone who has done this chime in.
    So far I'm thinking :
    500mg ALCAR
    240-300mg Na-rala with something like bitter melon extract, Banaba, gymnema, or berberine, cinnamon extract and d-pinitol Which of these have people used? Trying to keep costs down

    All suggestions welcome. I can get applied NeoVar which has some of the mentioned ingredients in...
    I would definitely add Banaba, Berberine and maybe some Gymnema.....or just grab some Glycophase for around $18 and add Na-rala

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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    I would definitely add Banaba, Berberine and maybe some Gymnema.....or just grab some Glycophase for around $18 and add Na-rala
    This looks like it will be the most feasible option for you honestly man. You're listing numerous ingredients already in GlycoPhase.

    If you do want to make your own - Na-R-ALA + Agmatine caps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    Recompadrol with dcp2.0 or slintensity has your bases covered
    This^^^^ doing it now and am loving it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post

    This looks like it will be the most feasible option for you honestly man. You're listing numerous ingredients already in GlycoPhase.

    If you do want to make your own - Na-R-ALA + Agmatine caps.
    +1 to these. I run glycophase + na-r-ala and that sets me up nicely
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    Recompadrol with dcp2.0 or slintensity has your bases covered
    I like this idea^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    +1 to these. I run glycophase + na-r-ala and that sets me up nicely
    This sounds great as well. I'm actually going to do this next after I run through my remaining AP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    I would definitely add Banaba, Berberine and maybe some Gymnema.....or just grab some Glycophase for around $18 and add Na-rala
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    This looks like it will be the most feasible option for you honestly man. You're listing numerous ingredients already in GlycoPhase. If you do want to make your own - Na-R-ALA + Agmatine caps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    +1 to these. I run glycophase + na-r-ala and that sets me up nicely
    Thanks for all the replies appreciate it.

    Always helpful SNS reps. In UK Glycophase is a little pricer, but undeniably I great profile.

    Of the single ingredients listed, which are deemed the most effective for insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning?

    Thanks again
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post
    Thanks for all the replies appreciate it. Always helpful SNS reps. In UK Glycophase is a little pricer, but undeniably I great profile. Of the single ingredients listed, which are deemed the most effective for insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning? Thanks again
    As standalone individual ingredients, I'm not sure which one would elicit the best results. I'd wager Berberine, but could be wrong.
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    As far as insulin sensitivity I'd say Na-R-ALA.
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    I would cylce the one you listed rather than making a stack. Or maybe stack only few of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    As far as insulin sensitivity I'd say Na-R-ALA.
    There's sooo many single ingredients to go with.

    Choose what is most cost effective
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    Cinnamon extract is amazing. It is sometimes recommended by doctors for type 2 and 1 diabetes.

    Fish oil has a blood sugar control effect.

    Green tea has a very good blood sugar comtrol. I've seen one studie where it had 30% over the placebo.

    Agmatine is another good one. Aswell as general health.

    Na-rala is great aswell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    I would definitely add Banaba, Berberine and maybe some Gymnema.....or just grab some Glycophase for around $18 and add Na-rala
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    There's sooo many single ingredients to go with. Choose what is most cost effective
    Agreed. So many options. Na-R-ALA isn't the most cost effective, but I feel from a general health stand point, it's tough to beat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post
    Thanks for all the replies appreciate it.

    Always helpful SNS reps. In UK Glycophase is a little pricer, but undeniably I great profile.

    Of the single ingredients listed, which are deemed the most effective for insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning?

    Thanks again
    When you say nutrient partitioning, are your referring to skeletal muscle uptake rather than MOAs like hampering glucose uptake or amylase inhibition?

    What is your end goal, cutting/recomping/bulking or blood sugar health?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    When you say nutrient partitioning, are your referring to skeletal muscle uptake rather than MOAs like hampering glucose uptake or amylase inhibition? What is your end goal, cutting/recomping/bulking or blood sugar health?
    Very good post. I should have been more specific in my initial post, apologies. I'm am looking at nutrient partitioning in the aspect of muscle cell uptake and I'm not looking for amylase inhibition or hampering glucose uptake. At present I'm cutting but I'm planning a recomposition phase soon and don't wish to use compounds aimed towards amylase inhibition as I don't have issues with body fat at present but rather skeletal muscle uptake and insulin sensitivity

    What are your suggestions?? I'm all ears

    Maybe PES should bring something out with these things in mind...

    Or maybe you already have plans to...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobatt View Post
    Cinnamon extract is amazing. It is sometimes recommended by doctors for type 2 and 1 diabetes. Fish oil has a blood sugar control effect. Green tea has a very good blood sugar comtrol. I've seen one studie where it had 30% over the placebo. Agmatine is another good one. Aswell as general health. Na-rala is great aswell.
    Cinnamon is one I've looked in to, in particular a cinnulin PF extract... Unsure of which extraction processes effect what or doses of varying extracts...

    Fish oils is a good one, with various other beneficial effects

    Green tea is a new one to me, interesting one too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post
    Very good post. I should have been more specific in my initial post, apologies. I'm am looking at nutrient partitioning in the aspect of muscle cell uptake and I'm not looking for amylase inhibition or hampering glucose uptake. At present I'm cutting but I'm planning a recomposition phase soon and don't wish to use compounds aimed towards amylase inhibition as I don't have issues with body fat at present but rather skeletal muscle uptake and insulin sensitivity

    What are your suggestions?? I'm all ears

    Maybe PES should bring something out with these things in mind...

    Or maybe you already have plans to...
    Thank you for the clarification, that is why I asked.

    Many people use GDAs whilst bulking with the thought process that they are preferentially shuttling carbohydrates into skeletal muscle even when the MOA of the ingredient isn't this.

    A couple of examples where the data supporting it's use is good but not necessarily the MOA you are looking for.

    Green coffee bean:

    "The mechanism(s) of the significant effects of GCA on weight loss, BMI, percent body fat, and heart rate are unknown. There have been some recent articles indicating that chlorogenic acid and its metabolite, caffeic acid, inhibit amylase at mM concentrations in vitro which, if it occurred in the gastrointestinal tract in vivo, would inhibit sugar absorption from starch consumption and thus decrease caloric input.12 That chlorogenic acid has a significant influence on glucose metabolism was well demonstrated by Rodrigues de Sotillo et al when they were able to demonstrate a significant improvement in glucose tolerance in Zucker rats.13 This relative deprivation of glucose could possibly explain the reduction in BMI as well as fat content seen in their other rat study14 and in our human study. Another group has clearly demonstrated that chlorogenic acid may in fact have an antagonistic effect on human glucose transport.15 Based on the dietary data in our study, the product was not an appetite suppressant. Extracts of green coffee beans inhibited pancreatic lipase in vitro with a 50% inhibitory concentration of 43 μM polyphenols.16 In support of this result, caffeinated but not decaffeinated coffee supplementation in humans produced a decrease in lipoprotein lipase.17"

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267522/

    ---

    Gymnema sylvestre;

    "Gymnemic acid formulations have also been found useful against obesity, according to recent reports [10]. This is attributed to the ability of gymnemic acids to delay the glucose absorption in the blood. The atomic arrangement of gymnemic acid molecules is similar to that of glucose molecules. These molecules fill the receptor locations on the taste buds thereby preventing its activation by sugar molecules present in the food, thereby curbing the sugar craving. Similarly, Gymnemic acid molecules fill the receptor location in the absorptive external layers of the intestine thereby preventing the sugar molecules absorption by the intestine, which results in low blood sugar level [11].

    Gymnema leaf extract, notably the peptide ‘Gurmarin’, has been found to interfere with the ability of the taste buds on the tongue to taste sweet and bitter. Gymnemic acid has a similar effect. It is believed that by inhibiting the sweet taste sensation, people taking it will limit their intake of sweet foods, and this activity may be partially responsible for its hypoglycemic effect [14].

    There are some possible mechanisms by which the leaves and especially Gymnemic acids from G. sylvestre exert its hypoglycemic effects are: 1) it increases secretion of insulin, 2) it promotes regeneration of islet cells, 3) it increases utilization of glucose: it is shown to increase the activities of enzymes responsible for utilization of glucose by insulin-dependant pathways, an increase in phosphorylase activity, decrease in gluconeogenic enzymes and sorbitol dehydrogenase, and 4) it causes inhibition of glucose absorption from intestine.

    The gymnemic acid components are believed to block the absorption of glucose in the small intestine, the exact action being unknown. It could be involve one or more mechanisms [14].

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2170951/
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Thank you for the clarification, that is why I asked. Many people use GDAs whilst bulking with the thought process that they are preferentially shuttling carbohydrates into skeletal muscle even when the MOA of the ingredient isn't this. A couple of examples where the data supporting it's use is good but not necessarily the MOA you are looking for. Green coffee bean: "The mechanism(s) of the significant effects of GCA on weight loss, BMI, percent body fat, and heart rate are unknown. There have been some recent articles indicating that chlorogenic acid and its metabolite, caffeic acid, inhibit amylase at mM concentrations in vitro which, if it occurred in the gastrointestinal tract in vivo, would inhibit sugar absorption from starch consumption and thus decrease caloric input.12 That chlorogenic acid has a significant influence on glucose metabolism was well demonstrated by Rodrigues de Sotillo et al when they were able to demonstrate a significant improvement in glucose tolerance in Zucker rats.13 This relative deprivation of glucose could possibly explain the reduction in BMI as well as fat content seen in their other rat study14 and in our human study. Another group has clearly demonstrated that chlorogenic acid may in fact have an antagonistic effect on human glucose transport.15 Based on the dietary data in our study, the product was not an appetite suppressant. Extracts of green coffee beans inhibited pancreatic lipase in vitro with a 50% inhibitory concentration of 43 ?M polyphenols.16 In support of this result, caffeinated but not decaffeinated coffee supplementation in humans produced a decrease in lipoprotein lipase.17" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267522/ --- Gymnema sylvestre; "Gymnemic acid formulations have also been found useful against obesity, according to recent reports [10]. This is attributed to the ability of gymnemic acids to delay the glucose absorption in the blood. The atomic arrangement of gymnemic acid molecules is similar to that of glucose molecules. These molecules fill the receptor locations on the taste buds thereby preventing its activation by sugar molecules present in the food, thereby curbing the sugar craving. Similarly, Gymnemic acid molecules fill the receptor location in the absorptive external layers of the intestine thereby preventing the sugar molecules absorption by the intestine, which results in low blood sugar level [11]. Gymnema leaf extract, notably the peptide 'Gurmarin', has been found to interfere with the ability of the taste buds on the tongue to taste sweet and bitter. Gymnemic acid has a similar effect. It is believed that by inhibiting the sweet taste sensation, people taking it will limit their intake of sweet foods, and this activity may be partially responsible for its hypoglycemic effect [14]. There are some possible mechanisms by which the leaves and especially Gymnemic acids from G. sylvestre exert its hypoglycemic effects are: 1) it increases secretion of insulin, 2) it promotes regeneration of islet cells, 3) it increases utilization of glucose: it is shown to increase the activities of enzymes responsible for utilization of glucose by insulin-dependant pathways, an increase in phosphorylase activity, decrease in gluconeogenic enzymes and sorbitol dehydrogenase, and 4) it causes inhibition of glucose absorption from intestine. The gymnemic acid components are believed to block the absorption of glucose in the small intestine, the exact action being unknown. It could be involve one or more mechanisms [14]. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2170951/
    Very strong post. I agree completely, you are right many do use ingredients thinking they will shuttle more carbohydrates in muscle and they are using something that doesn't primarily do this. What are your thoughts on Na-rala in terms of what I'm looking for? Or anything with the MOA I am looking for specifically. I think they both are components of burn24 but would need to check. I might be wrong though Thanks again
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post
    Very strong post. I agree completely, you are right many do use ingredients thinking they will shuttle more carbohydrates in muscle and they are using something that doesn't primarily do this. What are your thoughts on Na-rala in terms of what I'm looking for? Or anything with the MOAN I am looking for specifically. I think they both are components of burn24 but would need to check. I might be wrong though Thanks again
    Remember that Burn24 does contain GCBE.
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    There are a lot of pathways and its not so cut and dry

    For example

    Pure partitioning rarely happens.

    You look at it in the way of nuclear receptors PPARa/y along with AMPk/PI3k

    Pi3k or things that work along that line are anabolic signals. However some ingredients have action on carbohydrate inhibition along with workin that pathways : think banaba

    Then berberine which could be a "pure" In a sense. This acts as agonist on PPARa and antagonist in PPARy. This essentially causes insulin resistance and causes repression of the lipogenic hormones in mid stage adipocyte differentiation irreversibly (PPARy) and while it increase uptake in liver and muscle. But also blocks digestion of carbs too

    Then there are agonist of both PPARa/y. Which will cause glucose uptake in all cells however of a full agonist at the PPARy will cause lipogenic actions which are anabolic processes

    So many ways to skin the cat. But pure MOAs are few and far between

    I have found 2 ingredients that I want to put into a post workout carb that mimick the action of insulin at specific doses (same effects insulin has at 10mmol) from what I saw. Those are pure mimetics. Even VS can be called a pure mimetic but may block some carbs as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    There are a lot of pathways and its not so cut and dry For example Pure partitioning rarely happens. You look at it in the way of nuclear receptors PPARa/y along with AMPk/PI3k Pi3k or things that work along that line are anabolic signals. However some ingredients have action on carbohydrate inhibition along with workin that pathways : think banaba Then berberine which could be a "pure" In a sense. This acts as agonist on PPARa and antagonist in PPARy. This essentially causes insulin resistance and causes repression of the lipogenic hormones in mid stage adipocyte differentiation irreversibly (PPARy) and while it increase uptake in liver and muscle. But also blocks digestion of carbs too Then there are agonist of both PPARa/y. Which will cause glucose uptake in all cells however of a full agonist at the PPARy will cause lipogenic actions which are anabolic processes So many ways to skin the cat. But pure MOAs are few and far between I have found 2 ingredients that I want to put into a post workout carb that mimick the action of insulin at specific doses (same effects insulin has at 10mmol) from what I saw. Those are pure mimetics. Even VS can be called a pure mimetic but may block some carbs as well
    What do you mean about 2 ingredients you want to put into a post workout carb? Like a new product?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post
    What do you mean about 2 ingredients you want to put into a post workout carb? Like a new product?
    I'm sure he's not ready to drop the ingredients yet. I'm guessing a new carb-based product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post

    What do you mean about 2 ingredients you want to put into a post workout carb? Like a new product?
    Yea. But it's gotta be custom made for me. Which I'm unable to do at this poin
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    I'm sure he's not ready to drop the ingredients yet. I'm guessing a new carb-based product.
    Yea. If another company wants to snag it up. I'll let them know lol but it's gotta be made from scratch
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    FWIW I just got some bulk Na-r-ala and combined about 200mg with 500mg berberine with a PWO meal (about 80g carbs) and the effects were awesome! Excellent pumps and energy with no bloated feeling. I will try it again after I figure out what the heck destroyed my stomach a couple of days ago, and if it works that well again, I will cap the mixture and use it. Berberine is likely the cheapest one you will find, and it is effective, but banaba is probably stronger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    There are a lot of pathways and its not so cut and dry

    For example

    Pure partitioning rarely happens.

    You look at it in the way of nuclear receptors PPARa/y along with AMPk/PI3k

    Pi3k or things that work along that line are anabolic signals. However some ingredients have action on carbohydrate inhibition along with workin that pathways : think banaba

    Then berberine which could be a "pure" In a sense. This acts as agonist on PPARa and antagonist in PPARy. This essentially causes insulin resistance and causes repression of the lipogenic hormones in mid stage adipocyte differentiation irreversibly (PPARy) and while it increase uptake in liver and muscle. But also blocks digestion of carbs too

    Then there are agonist of both PPARa/y. Which will cause glucose uptake in all cells however of a full agonist at the PPARy will cause lipogenic actions which are anabolic processes

    So many ways to skin the cat. But pure MOAs are few and far between

    I have found 2 ingredients that I want to put into a post workout carb that mimick the action of insulin at specific doses (same effects insulin has at 10mmol) from what I saw. Those are pure mimetics. Even VS can be called a pure mimetic but may block some carbs as well
    Absolutely agree. Ingredients in this category usually have multiple proposed MOAs, I wouldn't elude to anything else.

    Essentially, what I was saying was that for the majority of ingredients, using it for the purpose of increased skeletal muscle uptake is futile when compared with other actions such as impairment of carbohydrate digestion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Absolutely agree. Ingredients in this category usually have multiple proposed MOAs, I wouldn't elude to anything else. Essentially, what I was saying was that for the majority of ingredients, using it for the purpose of increased skeletal muscle uptake is futile when compared with other actions such as impairment of carbohydrate digestion.
    Have you or anyone at PES ever tested Anacyclus with a glyco-meter? would be interested as although I'm yet to use it people report GDA type properties...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alasel View Post
    Have you or anyone at PES ever tested Anacyclus with a glyco-meter? would be interested as although I'm yet to use it people report GDA type properties...
    I did but my experiments weren't thorough or systematic enough to warrant publishing.

    There were a few instances when I experimented taking two capsules of AnaBeta post workout with liquid carb + protein sources and took my blood glucose readings afterwards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I did but my experiments weren't thorough or systematic enough to warrant publishing. There were a few instances when I experimented taking two capsules of AnaBeta post workout with liquid carb + protein sources and took my blood glucose readings afterwards.
    I'm guessing there's not too profound of an impact?
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    I'm guessing there's not too profound of an impact?
    It was hard to be systematic with it unless I completed the same workout, the same pre meal, the same time frame etc.

    This only ever came about when I first started using it and noticed feelings of hypoglycemia. I don't have any reliable readings to share, just a few spontaneously taken ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    It was hard to be systematic with it unless I completed the same workout, the same pre meal, the same time frame etc.

    This only ever came about when I first started using it and noticed feelings of hypoglycemia. I don't have any reliable readings to share, just a few spontaneously taken ones.
    Nah that's fine - yeah I agree, you would have to measure it the same way numerous times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post

    I would definitely add Banaba, Berberine and maybe some Gymnema.....or just grab some Glycophase for around $18 and add Na-rala
    Still pretty cheap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Nah that's fine - yeah I agree, you would have to measure it the same way numerous times.
    Someone recently posted in another GDA thread here that anacyclus was one of few GDAs to register as a blood glucose reduction on his daily glucometer testing
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Someone recently posted in another GDA thread here that anacyclus was one of few GDAs to register as a blood glucose reduction on his daily glucometer testing
    Interesting. I was unaware of it having much of an impact on glucose levels.
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    I believe it was @kevinhy that recommended 4-6 anabeta caps (og) for refeeds/cheat meals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Engineer View Post
    I believe it was @kevinhy that recommended 4-6 anabeta caps (og) for refeeds/cheat meals.
    I sure do. I notice a very tangible effect, although its a bit different than a GDA which just reduces blood sugar. I do feel there is a blood sugar lowering effect due to low post prandial blood sugar after dosing, however I get more of a "pump" that I havent experienced with anything else.
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    A lot of the research I hear on Berberine is great.. Whats the effective dose out there?

    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    I would definitely add Banaba, Berberine and maybe some Gymnema.....or just grab some Glycophase for around $18 and add Na-rala
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    Quote Originally Posted by sina View Post
    A lot of the research I hear on Berberine is great.. Whats the effective dose out there?
    Around 500mg x3 a day.

    Don't take the full 1.5 grams unless you want to feel like you're giving birth to a baby elephant that refuses to exit your bowels.
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