Coop's Corner #4: Alpha-2 Antagonism? Yes Please.

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Jon_b View Post

    He wasn't saying he was sedentary necessarily, just that he wouldn't make any changes to his current training routine.
    I never directed the sedentary idea towards him, rather was asking if anyone knows how less effective it is in such a state.

    As for him, I told him to be wary that footballers run considerable distances regularly.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by SoupNaziNazi View Post
    So just to clarify if I kept me diet and training the same and added this into my supplementation I would drop body fat and maintain LBM and strength? Don't mean to sound like a smart ass if that's how it comes off :/
    Yes, that's what placebo control is for. All factors were controlled for
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  3. Awesome write up man.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by lpfleiderer View Post
    This is good to know, just realized I have been mixing two different products, one with yohimbine, the other with Tyrosine. I have been researching why it is bad to mix these but have had no luck. Can you maybe give me some more detailed info, Coop? Any other supplements I should be careful mixing with yohimbine?!
    The issue is that yohimbine increases the production of catecholamines and also blocks subsequent catecholamine metabolism. In principle, you should also avoid supplements or foods that contain high amounts of phenylalanine.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Synapsin View Post
    The issue is that yohimbine increases the production of catecholamines and also blocks subsequent catecholamine metabolism. In principle, you should also avoid supplements or foods that contain high amounts of phenylalanine.
    To piggyback: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2083131&page=1

    The FDA issued warning letters about the combination. Sorry mods for the other forum link, but this thread was actually informative
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  6. Coop, the series of threads you have been writing up have been great. I appreciate the time you put into these.

  7. Hate the dosing protocol of Y, or I would use it more often :/
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    To piggyback: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2083131&page=1

    The FDA issued warning letters about the combination. Sorry mods for the other forum link, but this thread was actually informative
    There was a particular energy drink sold in gas stations everywhere that had yohimbine and tyramine combined that had a lot of side effects and led to the initial trouble behind the combos.

    The street term for this effect is called "cheesing". No...not the same cheesing from South Park

    It received the name because cheese is high in tyramine. So if you are getting bad reactions to yohimbine/alpha-2 antagonists and there is a lot of cheese in your diet that day, you may have found your problem.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyramin...d_pharmacology
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  9. I recently tried a few fat burners from various companies, including Alphamine. All had some kind of yohimbine or rauwolscine in them. I got headaches from all of them, and generally felt awful while they were in my system. My heart rate didn't go way up or anything, but it made me *feel* hypertensive. The only one that didn't make me feel like that was Red Acid Reborn, but it still gave me enough of a headache that I wouldn't want to deal with the effects daily, or hit the gym while I was taking it.

    I know that caffeine isn't the problem because I drink a good amount of coffee daily, and I can take (yohimbine-free) PWOs without any issue. Is this a normal response to the dosages of yohimbine common in these kinds of products?

    Oh, and kudos to you guys and other companies willing to send out samples of these kinds of products so we can figure out if they work for our bodies before we buy them. I know now that I won't be buying any Alphamine in the future (unless the UK version starts selling for the same price as the US version on NP), but I did get three bottles of Forskolin 95 in the mail yesterday. ;-)

  10. Killer information, Coop.

  11. Awesome info coop, I have been looking into yohimbine HCL for a while now and finally pulled the trigger to get some in combination with Forskolin.
    Follow me on my log to life and lift: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/229476-mtinsideouts-log-life.html

  12. We're all witnesses.

  13. Thanks Coop and Synapsin, very informative.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Synapsin View Post
    The issue is that yohimbine increases the production of catecholamines and also blocks subsequent catecholamine metabolism. In principle, you should also avoid supplements or foods that contain high amounts of phenylalanine.

    Crap, I've been mixing Oep Powder and focus xt. Also Oep Powder and Enhanced. No wonder I have been feeling extra jitters!

  15. Guess I'll save the Focus xt until I finish the Oep Powder and enhanced. Or vice/versa.

  16. Damn, I had been using Tyrosine with Yohimbine before. Thanks for the info. Great thread.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Spindletop View Post
    I recently tried a few fat burners from various companies, including Alphamine. All had some kind of yohimbine or rauwolscine in them. I got headaches from all of them, and generally felt awful while they were in my system. My heart rate didn't go way up or anything, but it made me *feel* hypertensive. The only one that didn't make me feel like that was Red Acid Reborn, but it still gave me enough of a headache that I wouldn't want to deal with the effects daily, or hit the gym while I was taking it.

    I know that caffeine isn't the problem because I drink a good amount of coffee daily, and I can take (yohimbine-free) PWOs without any issue. Is this a normal response to the dosages of yohimbine common in these kinds of products?

    Oh, and kudos to you guys and other companies willing to send out samples of these kinds of products so we can figure out if they work for our bodies before we buy them. I know now that I won't be buying any Alphamine in the future (unless the UK version starts selling for the same price as the US version on NP), but I did get three bottles of Forskolin 95 in the mail yesterday. ;-)
    http://pescience.com/alphamine-int.html

    It sounds like you just generally have a very low tolerance to a2-antagonists. Like said in this thread, check to see what else you are supplementing with. Anything with tyrosine or tyramine? Are you eating a lot of cheese?
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  18. so what alpha-2 antagonists are you guys using?
    where from and how much, im interested!!

    currently my only source of yohimbine is from oxyelite powder and AAv2
    if im really good at tolerating yohimbine, would waxing the dosage increase effectiveness? maybe not effectiveness but would it result in more fat cells lost or shrink or whatever it is that happens that make you look leaner.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by bananaClip View Post
    so what alpha-2 antagonists are you guys using?
    where from and how much, im interested!!

    currently my only source of yohimbine is from oxyelite powder and AAv2
    if im really good at tolerating yohimbine, would waxing the dosage increase effectiveness? maybe not effectiveness but would it result in more fat cells lost or shrink or whatever it is that happens that make you look leaner.
    Yes, but you want to stay safe above all. The thing about pure yohimbine hcl is the extremely narrow therapeutic index. You can go from 15mg to 20mg and suddenly your world has been rocked

  20. Sorry if this seems like its off topic, and if I'm still very new to AM. Trying to learn as much as possible.

    Hey coop and anyone else with input, I take a "wakefulness aid" called modafinil to keep me awake most days, its hard staying awake while working 40-50 hrs a week and taking 15 credit hours in college. Yesterday I took my Modafinil and an hour later mixed a scoop of OEP powder(which has Yohimbine in it.). I only drank half of what I mixed, then my energy was out of control. I rode my bike 20 miles in record time. this made me very curious. I was reading up on modafinil and it said: "Modafinil has central alpha 1-adrenergic agonist effects i.e. it directly stimulates the receptors." http://modafinil.com/ 3rd paragraph down. My question is, is it synergistic? or the opposite? would it be is it safe to mix the two?! not asking for medical advice or trying to have you guys answer as a medical professional, just trying to learn if mixing an alpha 1-adrenergic agonist with an alpha-2 antagonist would have an effect on each other. Just here to learn. Thanks -Luke

  21. Quote Originally Posted by lpfleiderer View Post
    Sorry if this seems like its off topic, and if I'm still very new to AM. Trying to learn as much as possible.

    Hey coop and anyone else with input, I take a "wakefulness aid" called modafinil to keep me awake most days, its hard staying awake while working 40-50 hrs a week and taking 15 credit hours in college. Yesterday I took my Modafinil and an hour later mixed a scoop of OEP powder(which has Yohimbine in it.). I only drank half of what I mixed, then my energy was out of control. I rode my bike 20 miles in record time. this made me very curious. I was reading up on modafinil and it said: "Modafinil has central alpha 1-adrenergic agonist effects i.e. it directly stimulates the receptors." http://modafinil.com/ 3rd paragraph down. My question is, is it synergistic? or the opposite? would it be is it safe to mix the two?! not asking for medical advice or trying to have you guys answer as a medical professional, just trying to learn if mixing an alpha 1-adrenergic agonist with an alpha-2 antagonist would have an effect on each other. Just here to learn. Thanks -Luke
    An alpha 1 agonist would promote wakefulness, but yohimbine hcl has very little affinity for the alpha 1 receptor (wherein it would antagonize it and create a subtractive effect). Modafinil in general is not fully understood and I wouldn't combine any supplement with it. I also don't recommend using modafinil simply because you have a heavy workload, for financial reasons and otherwise. Caffeine is plenty effective and actually very healthy, neurologically speaking

  22. Coop. I tried messaging you on an idea for coopers corner

  23. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Thanks everyone.

    Unfortunately, some users will experience these effects from alpha-2 antagonists due to excessive adrenergic stimulation. It won't matter which alpha-2 antagonist you use, the story will be the same. Your only real hope is the tolerance that develops with continued use. There's evidence that the adrenergic effects diminish with time while lipolysis actually stays constant
    I'm just curious, is the dosing scheme like beta-antagonists, 3weeks on, then 3weeks off because of receptor down regulation? If so, how could I build a tolerance to the adrenergic effect and be on it long enough for significant fat loss?
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  24. smoker145
    smoker145's Avatar

    Thread is gold.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Patuba View Post
    I'm just curious, is the dosing scheme like beta-antagonists, 3weeks on, then 3weeks off because of receptor down regulation? If so, how could I build a tolerance to the adrenergic effect and be on it long enough for significant fat loss?
    This applies to virtually no beta agonists outside of clen (due to the multi-day halflife). Yohimbine has shown a diminished side effect profile with continued lipolysis with prolonged use, similar to ephedrine (a beta agonist).

  26. What about Boerhaavia diffusa and its effect on the alpha-2 receptor?

  27. Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post

    It sounds like you just generally have a very low tolerance to a2-antagonists. Like said in this thread, check to see what else you are supplementing with. Anything with tyrosine or tyramine? Are you eating a lot of cheese?
    Nothing else besides creatine, especially on the days I took the yohimbe products. And no, I don't eat lots of cheese. I think I'm just sensitive. No big deal, and again, thanks for providing samples so I could test it in advance.

  28. So after using enhanced since the day it came out for 2-3 days a week, you think I should try alphamine again?. Alphamine always made me jittery/nervous, even at .25 dosage.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    This applies to virtually no beta agonists outside of clen (due to the multi-day halflife). Yohimbine has shown a diminished side effect profile with continued lipolysis with prolonged use, similar to ephedrine (a beta agonist).
    Whats the longest you would advise taking a yohimbine product? EC stack? ECY stack?

  30. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    So after using enhanced since the day it came out for 2-3 days a week, you think I should try alphamine again?. Alphamine always made me jittery/nervous, even at .25 dosage.
    Different extracts for different purposes
    Quote Originally Posted by McBurly View Post
    Whats the longest you would advise taking a yohimbine product? EC stack? ECY stack?
    I'd say a max of 8 weeks for yohimbine. EC safety studies go up to 6 months
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