Now, for cissus, I use it and I personally think it's effective. However, I'm not going to make claims of safety on it but what I can say is that there really hasn't been safety studies done on cissus. Heck, how cissus works isn't even all that well understood even though it has been used in history for a very long time prior to introduction as a supplement in the west.
So at the end of the day, just like you are suggesting that PH may have negative impacts on health, the same could be said about cissus since the safety of cissus is mostly if not entirely based on anecdotal findings, much like you would see with PH. Big difference here however is that we can look at the PH available, look at their chemical make up and with an understanding of how these chemical components gets broken down and utilized in the body, we can have a pretty good idea in regards to their toxicity, can't really say the same about cissus though since much of cissus is still a mystery and a lot of theory.
I'm not pro or con to PH or cissus though. Just pointing out that what you were implying here about PH was a little silly, especially when PH compounds are far more better understood than cissus.
1) Bhagath, K.P., et al (2009). Petroleum Ether Extract of (Linn.) Enhances Bone Marrow Mesenchymal Stem Cell Proliferation and Facilitates Osteoblastogenesis. Clinics (Sao Paulo). October; 64(10): 993–998.
2) Muthusami, S., et al (2011). Effects of on the proliferation, differentiation and mineralization of human osteoblast like SaOS-2 cells. J Cell Biochem. Apr;112(4):1035-45.
3) Parisuthiman, D., et al (2009). Cissus quadrangularis extract enhances biomineralization through up-regulation of MAPK-dependent alkaline phosphatase activity in osteoblasts. Journal In Vitro Cell Dev Biol Anim. Mar-Apr;45(3-4):194-200.
There are some studies on how it works in bone. I would assume the positive effects on joints and tendons is do to the analgesic and anti-inflammatory properties it also possesses.
I'm done with the PH talk I have limited knowledge but the irony in his statement is still overwhelming.
I'm actually not on your side or on the other person's side, I was just pointing out how you are comparing the safety of PH to the safety of cissus when the fact is that they both do not have clinically proven safety data (however, let it be noted that for PH, at least for the PH back in the day, there's actually a lot of clinical and human trial data available to demonstrate effects both positive and negative, and at the end of the day, when used as directed, they were relatively safe, it's the modern PH's from dubious companies out now which are questionable).
Also, I've mentioned it AT LEAST 3 times now, yes there are dubious companies out there selling PH which ARE dangerous but you can't just make a blanket statement that all PH are dangerous based off of that.
It appears that nothing in discussion here is over my head, however, it's quite obvious that this whole PH safety discussion is WAY over your head thrice over. The fact that you don't seem to understand that there are NO established studies on cissus safety nor has one ever been conducted to SHOW the safety of cissus (not claiming it's dangerous here, just pointing out how there's no clinical data to demonstrate safety of cissus supplementation) is ALSO way over your head.
Again, bottom line here is that YOU have effectively IGNORED actual clinical data out there for the main PH's (not counting the offshoot versions created to get around bans on certain compounds) and just essentially ASSUMED that PH is dangerous WITHOUT bothering to look into the matter. I mean, you didn't even bother to make correlations (which in itself is poor research and a poor basis for arguing a point) but instead are just ASSUMING the dangers.
Where is there a lack of bias in your arguments like you are claiming? Your arguments thus far about PH/AAS has been ENTIRELY based off of bias since your are ASSUMING that they are dangerous WITHOUT any data to back up your assumptions. As I've said MULTIPLE times already and as the data would support, WHEN USED AS DIRECTED, legit PH/AAS are relatively safe. If you go and abuse them, yeah, you might have health issues associated with that, but then again, you're also abusing them.
Lastly, how is it nothing OTHER than speculation that cissus is safe? Let me quote you:
"on the flip side worried about an ayurvedic herb that is well tolerated, been used for centures, and has safe health profile is ironic."
WHERE IS THE DATA TO SHOW THAT IT IS WELL TOLERATED AND HAS A SAFE HEALTH PROFILE? The ONLY data available is anecdotal, THAT IS IT. You claiming that it is well tolerated and has a safe health profile is NOTHING more than speculation and assumption IF we are to go by clinical data available (which there are none for the safety of cissus). Legitimate PH/AAS on the other hand, there's data to support their safety and to demonstrate relatively safe dosing for them. THERE'S DATA to demonstrate effects both positive and negative AS WELL AS ESTABLISHED dosing data. There's really none available for cissus at least in terms of safety for cissus (though again, IMO cissus is safe, but there is no data to really support this ASSUMPTION).
Basically, can't conclusively say that PH/AAS or cissus is safe due to the lack of data BUT there's actually FAR MORE data available for PH/AAS than there is for cissus. I'm just pointing that out, you on the other hand have your mind set on saying that PH/AAS are outright dangerous even though you 1) stated that you are not knowledgeable on the subject matter of PH/AAS and 2) obviously have no clinical data to support your assumptions (thus demonstrating clear bias even in the face of the actual available data which would suggest that your assumptions are more or less unfounded when PH/AAS are taken as directed and not aggressively abused).
Probably mentioned earlier. But Joint Help by iforce in conjunction w/ glucosamine and plenty of fish oil has worked wonders for me.
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Joint force period.