How to alleviate joint pain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post
    That is plausible but you have absolutely nothing to back that.
    Nor would you have anything to back the opposing view at least to oppose it to the effect of a general blanket statement that all PH is harmful which is in turn what you are implying here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Nor would you have anything to back the opposing view at least to oppose it to the effect of a general blanket statement that all PH is harmful which is in turn what you are implying here.
    Look I was just pointing out that the irony is overwhelming when cissus has a great safety profile. Show me a study where a PH/DS has no negative side effects, maybe they go unnoticed but if you have blood panels it certainly has negative implications on general health in the short term and who knows about the long term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post
    Look I was just pointing out that the irony is overwhelming when cissus has a great safety profile. Show me a study where a PH/DS has no negative side effects, maybe they go unnoticed but if you have blood panels it certainly has negative implications on general health in the short term and who knows about the long term.
    Actually, early PH from back in the day didn't really have many serious side effects especially when used as directed. The later ones as people tried to come up with new compounds however to get around compound bans, especially from companies which were dubious at best, those did pose safety concerns.

    Now, for cissus, I use it and I personally think it's effective. However, I'm not going to make claims of safety on it but what I can say is that there really hasn't been safety studies done on cissus. Heck, how cissus works isn't even all that well understood even though it has been used in history for a very long time prior to introduction as a supplement in the west.

    So at the end of the day, just like you are suggesting that PH may have negative impacts on health, the same could be said about cissus since the safety of cissus is mostly if not entirely based on anecdotal findings, much like you would see with PH. Big difference here however is that we can look at the PH available, look at their chemical make up and with an understanding of how these chemical components gets broken down and utilized in the body, we can have a pretty good idea in regards to their toxicity, can't really say the same about cissus though since much of cissus is still a mystery and a lot of theory.

    I'm not pro or con to PH or cissus though. Just pointing out that what you were implying here about PH was a little silly, especially when PH compounds are far more better understood than cissus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Actually, early PH from back in the day didn't really have many serious side effects especially when used as directed. The later ones as people tried to come up with new compounds however to get around compound bans, especially from companies which were dubious at best, those did pose safety concerns.

    Now, for cissus, I use it and I personally think it's effective. However, I'm not going to make claims of safety on it but what I can say is that there really hasn't been safety studies done on cissus. Heck, how cissus works isn't even all that well understood even though it has been used in history for a very long time prior to introduction as a supplement in the west.

    So at the end of the day, just like you are suggesting that PH may have negative impacts on health, the same could be said about cissus since the safety of cissus is mostly if not entirely based on anecdotal findings, much like you would see with PH. Big difference here however is that we can look at the PH available, look at their chemical make up and with an understanding of how these chemical components gets broken down and utilized in the body, we can have a pretty good idea in regards to their toxicity, can't really say the same about cissus though since much of cissus is still a mystery and a lot of theory.

    I'm not pro or con to PH or cissus though. Just pointing out that what you were implying here about PH was a little silly, especially when PH compounds are far more better understood than cissus.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22976133 Safety

    1) Bhagath, K.P., et al (2009). Petroleum Ether Extract of Cissus Quadrangularis (Linn.) Enhances Bone Marrow Mesenchymal Stem Cell Proliferation and Facilitates Osteoblastogenesis. Clinics (Sao Paulo). October; 64(10): 993–998.
    2) Muthusami, S., et al (2011). Effects of cissus quadrangularis on the proliferation, differentiation and matrix mineralization of human osteoblast like SaOS-2 cells. J Cell Biochem. Apr;112(4):1035-45.
    3) Parisuthiman, D., et al (2009). Cissus quadrangularis extract enhances biomineralization through up-regulation of MAPK-dependent alkaline phosphatase activity in osteoblasts. Journal In Vitro Cell Dev Biol Anim. Mar-Apr;45(3-4):194-200.

    There are some studies on how it works in bone. I would assume the positive effects on joints and tendons is do to the analgesic and anti-inflammatory properties it also possesses.

    I'm done with the PH talk I have limited knowledge but the irony in his statement is still overwhelming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22976133 Safety

    1) Bhagath, K.P., et al (2009). Petroleum Ether Extract of Cissus Quadrangularis (Linn.) Enhances Bone Marrow Mesenchymal Stem Cell Proliferation and Facilitates Osteoblastogenesis. Clinics (Sao Paulo). October; 64(10): 993–998.
    2) Muthusami, S., et al (2011). Effects of cissus quadrangularis on the proliferation, differentiation and matrix mineralization of human osteoblast like SaOS-2 cells. J Cell Biochem. Apr;112(4):1035-45.
    3) Parisuthiman, D., et al (2009). Cissus quadrangularis extract enhances biomineralization through up-regulation of MAPK-dependent alkaline phosphatase activity in osteoblasts. Journal In Vitro Cell Dev Biol Anim. Mar-Apr;45(3-4):194-200.

    There are some studies on how it works in bone. I would assume the positive effects on joints and tendons is do to the analgesic and anti-inflammatory properties it also possesses.

    I'm done with the PH talk I have limited knowledge but the irony in his statement is still overwhelming.
    Again, we are talking about the SAFETY of cissus NOT the benefits of cissus. All those studies you've referenced are showing the benefits of cissus but there's no real established SAFETY of cissus. Anecdotal evidence would suggest it's safe but it's never been clinically proven. So with that in mind, the only reason you find irony in the statement in question is because you are ASSUMING that all PH are dangerous. As you have stated, you have limited knowledge in PH but clearly you have demonstrated that you are apparently biased against PH and operating under the assumption that all PH are dangerous.

    I'm actually not on your side or on the other person's side, I was just pointing out how you are comparing the safety of PH to the safety of cissus when the fact is that they both do not have clinically proven safety data (however, let it be noted that for PH, at least for the PH back in the day, there's actually a lot of clinical and human trial data available to demonstrate effects both positive and negative, and at the end of the day, when used as directed, they were relatively safe, it's the modern PH's from dubious companies out now which are questionable).
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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Again, we are talking about the SAFETY of cissus NOT the benefits of cissus. All those studies you've referenced are showing the benefits of cissus but there's no real established SAFETY of cissus. Anecdotal evidence would suggest it's safe but it's never been clinically proven. So with that in mind, the only reason you find irony in the statement in question is because you are ASSUMING that all PH are dangerous. As you have stated, you have limited knowledge in PH but clearly you have demonstrated that you are apparently biased against PH and operating under the assumption that all PH are dangerous.

    Well the first link was about safety and you brought up the fact we don't fully understand how cissus works which is why I linked the others.


    I'm actually not on your side or on the other person's side, I was just pointing out how you are comparing the safety of PH to the safety of cissus when the fact is that they both do not have clinically proven safety data (however, let it be noted that for PH, at least for the PH back in the day, there's actually a lot of clinical and human trial data available to demonstrate effects both positive and negative, and at the end of the day, when used as directed, they were relatively safe, it's the modern PH's from dubious companies out now which are questionable).
    I'm not biased towards PH/AS I just know they come with a degree of health implications and if you disagree so be it but correlation between those that cycle and TRT is enough for me to be weary. Suppressing our bodies own hormone production regardless of cycle supports is in no way healthy. I have nothing against them it is your body but when you work for a company selling new age PH's that we know little about and are on the flip side worried about an ayurvedic herb that is well tolerated, been used for centures, and has safe health profile is ironic. Sorry if that is over your head and maybe studies will come out in the future showing all of these DHEA metabolites like the 1, 4, Nor, etc to be safe but as of now that is speculation unlike cissus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post
    I'm not biased towards PH/AS I just know they come with a degree of health implications and if you disagree so be it but correlation between those that cycle and TRT is enough for me to be weary. Suppressing our bodies own hormone production regardless of cycle supports is in no way healthy. I have nothing against them it is your body but when you work for a company selling new age PH's that we know little about and are on the flip side worried about an ayurvedic herb that is well tolerated, been used for centures, and has safe health profile is ironic. Sorry if that is over your head and maybe studies will come out in the future showing all of these DHEA metabolites like the 1, 4, Nor, etc to be safe but as of now that is speculation unlike cissus.
    As I said, PH especially the old ones before the bans, were relatively safe WHEN USED AS DIRECTED. What part of this is so hard to understand? Tylenol is safe when used as directed, if you abuse them, yeah, could cause issues. Same with Advil, NyQuil, etc.

    Also, I've mentioned it AT LEAST 3 times now, yes there are dubious companies out there selling PH which ARE dangerous but you can't just make a blanket statement that all PH are dangerous based off of that.

    It appears that nothing in discussion here is over my head, however, it's quite obvious that this whole PH safety discussion is WAY over your head thrice over. The fact that you don't seem to understand that there are NO established studies on cissus safety nor has one ever been conducted to SHOW the safety of cissus (not claiming it's dangerous here, just pointing out how there's no clinical data to demonstrate safety of cissus supplementation) is ALSO way over your head.

    Again, bottom line here is that YOU have effectively IGNORED actual clinical data out there for the main PH's (not counting the offshoot versions created to get around bans on certain compounds) and just essentially ASSUMED that PH is dangerous WITHOUT bothering to look into the matter. I mean, you didn't even bother to make correlations (which in itself is poor research and a poor basis for arguing a point) but instead are just ASSUMING the dangers.

    Where is there a lack of bias in your arguments like you are claiming? Your arguments thus far about PH/AAS has been ENTIRELY based off of bias since your are ASSUMING that they are dangerous WITHOUT any data to back up your assumptions. As I've said MULTIPLE times already and as the data would support, WHEN USED AS DIRECTED, legit PH/AAS are relatively safe. If you go and abuse them, yeah, you might have health issues associated with that, but then again, you're also abusing them.

    Lastly, how is it nothing OTHER than speculation that cissus is safe? Let me quote you:

    "on the flip side worried about an ayurvedic herb that is well tolerated, been used for centures, and has safe health profile is ironic."

    WHERE IS THE DATA TO SHOW THAT IT IS WELL TOLERATED AND HAS A SAFE HEALTH PROFILE? The ONLY data available is anecdotal, THAT IS IT. You claiming that it is well tolerated and has a safe health profile is NOTHING more than speculation and assumption IF we are to go by clinical data available (which there are none for the safety of cissus). Legitimate PH/AAS on the other hand, there's data to support their safety and to demonstrate relatively safe dosing for them. THERE'S DATA to demonstrate effects both positive and negative AS WELL AS ESTABLISHED dosing data. There's really none available for cissus at least in terms of safety for cissus (though again, IMO cissus is safe, but there is no data to really support this ASSUMPTION).

    Basically, can't conclusively say that PH/AAS or cissus is safe due to the lack of data BUT there's actually FAR MORE data available for PH/AAS than there is for cissus. I'm just pointing that out, you on the other hand have your mind set on saying that PH/AAS are outright dangerous even though you 1) stated that you are not knowledgeable on the subject matter of PH/AAS and 2) obviously have no clinical data to support your assumptions (thus demonstrating clear bias even in the face of the actual available data which would suggest that your assumptions are more or less unfounded when PH/AAS are taken as directed and not aggressively abused).
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post

    2 bottles did nothing for me even at 8 a day
    Even double dosed it doesnt even contain no where near the dosages to be effective

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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    Even double dosed it doesnt even contain no where near the dosages to be effective
    Exactly my thoughts when I looked at the label but I still decided to give it a go. Osteo Sport at the end of the day effectively did diddly squat for me. Smh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    Even double dosed it doesnt even contain no where near the dosages to be effective
    Haha that's what led me to double dose it from the start thinking just maybe I'll get something out of it, luckily I got them for free.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post
    Haha that's what led me to double dose it from the start thinking just maybe I'll get something out of it, luckily I got them for free.
    I don't understand how it's still on the market. Smh.
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    Probably mentioned earlier. But Joint Help by iforce in conjunction w/ glucosamine and plenty of fish oil has worked wonders for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    I don't understand how it's still on the market. Smh.
    People are enamored by the shiny pills and plethora of ingredients.
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    Joint force period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mission1 View Post
    Joint force period.
    Ran two bottles got nothing. Although I only used it for my knee and I'll know tomorrow what exactly is wrong. If it is structural I really can't blame the supplement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post

    Ran two bottles got nothing. Although I only used it for my knee and I'll know tomorrow what exactly is wrong. If it is structural I really can't blame the supplement.
    I've been having really bad lower back pain that shot down to the right of my side of my leg. It would come and go. But it's really been bad lately so I went to Rothman institute and got a X-ray which should nothing. Put me on anti inflammatory pills that only slightly helped. My pain level was a 8 to 9 every morning. Couldn't even put my socks or underwear on. That's how bad its been. And it's been this ruff for the last 2/12 weeks. I decided to get joint force and been using it the last 3 days and spraying 3 to 4 times with and without the Saran Wrap . It's been a miracle for the last 2 days. I'm about 98 % better. I still feel the problem in the left side but its almost gone. I had the best workout I've had in weeks. By the way I did see a chiropractor he definitely didn't say it was sciatica . It was something else . He really didn't do much to convince me what he did helped. I started joint force way after that. Hope this helps .
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    Anyone run cissus while on cycle?
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    I use Formutech Nutritions Flexible joint formula. I think the cissus it contains along with the chonditon,MSM, glucosamine, and Hyaluronic Acid are a great combination that works with synergistic effects. I swear by it. When I have gone off I can tell withing a week or two.
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    Athletes joint restore is amazing. I've been having great success with it
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    Cissus + Paractin = Joint Help.

    I use Joint Force and NOW's Topical Celadrin for my isolated areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuZo View Post
    Cissus + Paractin = Joint Help. I use Joint Force and NOW's Topical Celadrin for my isolated areas.
    I agree. Last time I ran erase my joints we really dried out and in pain. I used iForce Joint Help and after about a week I was back to normal
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    Anyone suggested good ol glucosamine chrondotin and fish oil? Those combined have worked wonders for me, both on Alphamax (armistane included) erase, and just day to day as I have some knee issues due to surgery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksox15 View Post
    Anyone suggested good ol glucosamine chrondotin and fish oil? Those combined have worked wonders for me, both on Alphamax (armistane included) erase, and just day to day as I have some knee issues due to surgery.
    I use them plus cissus xt
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post
    Ghrp-2 & cjc-1295 worked to completely cure my bunnies case of tendinitis..
    100mcg 3 × a day dosing ghrp-2
    100mcg 3× a day cjc-1295 w/o DAC
    Is there an oral-only peptide combo that might be effective for knee pain? My knees have started aching significantly over the past 4-6 months, and has really affected my ability to do leg workouts. It hurts to stand from as sitting position, and I have basically stopped most leg work for the time being. It really sucks! I have just started doing research on peptides, but there's a LOT of different ones and I haven't had a chance to edumacate myself thoroughly yet. Any suggestions?
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    Peptides far exceed any oral supplement for joint health. Give a 31g 5/16" insulin needle a shot. Even though pinning 3x a day is a nuisance...the results make up for it. With a needle that small you won't even feel a thing. I tried countless herbs and joint supplements and while they provide temporary relief, I don't feel they aid in the rehabilitation process. Peptides and stretching techniques all the way
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperCat View Post
    Is there an oral-only peptide combo that might be effective for knee pain? My knees have started aching significantly over the past 4-6 months, and has really affected my ability to do leg workouts. It hurts to stand from as sitting position, and I have basically stopped most leg work for the time being. It really sucks! I have just started doing research on peptides, but there's a LOT of different ones and I haven't had a chance to edumacate myself thoroughly yet. Any suggestions?
    What wet dolphin said in response is mostly true, you will find a few things that help with symptoms and make it feel a bit better. But peptides have outright fixed problems for myself and others..

    And when I say myself I mean in my research on my bunny!
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    I would look into Formutech Flexible for an all around joint support. This formula even has cissus for added support.
  

  
 

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