Coop, De__eB, Josh, Jiggz...or anyone of that caliber...

[Celorza]

http://patrickarnoldblog.com/instant-ketosis/

Thoughts, recommendations, realistic expectations?

 

[mr.cooper69]

I have commented on it in a private science group I'm a part of. It's an interesting idea, but I'll reserve my *public* (since everyone loves to quote them) thoughts until I see PA's full presentation and cited studies.

 

[RecompMan]

That's crazy interesting! In for reply

 

[aaronuconn]

I'm skeptical (as most probably), but I'm in to learn more about it.

 

[T-Bone]

$80 plus shipping?. Wow. Could this product actually work?. Could it put me back into ketosis on my low carb days faster?. Looks interesting but not sure its worth the cash at this point.

 

[Jiigzz]

I have commented on it in a private science group I'm a part of. It's an interesting idea, but I'll reserve my *public* (since everyone loves to quote them) thoughts until I see PA's full presentation and cited studies.

This. I was following discussions on it as well; I could only speculate on what it is intended to do. EDIT: I guess he changed his mind

 

[Jiigzz]

Does the body use ketones preferentially over glucose? I.e. would using this product in a higher carb situation inhibit the use of glycogen/ glucose?

 

[jimbuick]

Interesting...

 

[mr.cooper69]

I just need to know the purpose. I was initially told it was for fat loss, which I don't think it would help with at all. Now I see it's advertised as an ergogen, aka using a different metabolic pathway than glucose to allow for greater time to exhaustion. It may do this, but my one concern is raising plasma ketone levels in the absence of their demand, a phenomenon we often see in ketoacidosis.

I don't know the doses of exogenous ketones you'd need, as I've never learned anything in that context, and I'm too lazy to dig...hence why I'm waiting for PA's references

 

[T-Bone]

Look at this other thread too guys,

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/e-pharm-nutrition/234054-ketoforce-patrick-arnold.html

I'm interested to hear more but still quite skeptical on this.

 

[jimbuick]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/e-pharm-nutrition/234054-ketoforce-patrick-arnold.html

 

[mr.cooper69]

Yes, an exogenous energy source will obviously reduce oxygen consumption. I'm more interested in how significantly ___________ exogenous dose will increase plasma concentrations

 

[jimbuick]

I posted that up in case some of you guys wanted to ask him some specific questions in there.

 

[aaronuconn]

I just need to know the purpose. I was initially told it was for fat loss, which I don't think it would help with at all. Now I see it's advertised as an ergogen, aka using a different metabolic pathway than glucose to allow for greater time to exhaustion. It may do this, but my one concern is raising plasma ketone levels in the absence of their demand, a phenomenon we often see in ketoacidosis.

I don't know the doses of exogenous ketones you'd need, as I've never learned anything in that context, and I'm too lazy to dig...hence why I'm waiting for PA's references

How often do you see ketoacidosis outside of type 1 diabetes?

 

[mr.cooper69]

How often do you see ketoacidosis outside of type 1 diabetes?

Rarely. It can occur in type II in extreme cases. Ketoacidosis is caused by ketogenic acid supply exceeding demand, causing progressive increases in plasma acidity. This is in contrast to ketosis, where the insulin block on HSL perfectly titrates ketone levels in the blood to tissue demand.

If we're introducing exogenous ketones, you encounter something similar to scenario A, though again, I don't know how significant the effect is and whether levels get "supraphysiological"

 

[aaronuconn]

Rarely. It can occur in type II in extreme cases. Ketoacidosis is caused by ketogenic acid supply exceeding demand, causing progressive increases in plasma acidity. This is in contrast to ketosis, where the insulin block on HSL perfectly titrates ketone levels in the blood to tissue demand.

If we're introducing exogenous ketones, you encounter something similar to scenario A, though again, I don't know how significant the effect is and whether levels get "supraphysiological"

Like you said above, PA's citations will be nice to see.

 

[stxnas]

Coop Lion in the house!!! :hail:

Wait, wut...???

 

[JudoJosh]

Didnt the department of defense fund some research into ketone esters as a MRE?

(P.S. Im flattered that my name was included in the title but im nowhere near qualified to really delve into this too much)

 

[aaronuconn]

Didnt the department of defense fund some research into ketone esters as a MRE?

Few years back I believe.

 

[JudoJosh]

Search for Dr. Richard Veech and Dr. Kieran Clarke

 

[JudoJosh]

Is ketoacidosis really a concern? Diabetic ketoacidosis occurs when ketone concentration reaches upwards of 25 mmol/dl and if I remember correctly when ketone esters were explored the target was around 4-6mm. Of course you have the risk of knuckleheads taking too much but isnt that always a risk with everything?

Furthermore, dont we have feedback loops to prevent this? Specifically wont there be an insulin release
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/33/12/1188.full.pdf

Which would increase the excretion of ketones into urine thus preventing ketone concentration getting too high?

Anyway, my understanding of the product is it is not something meant to be used daily or frequently. Isnt it meant more to be used for just a couole days to help transition you into ketosis faster and than you discontinue use? Perhaps after a refeed of one is doing a CKD approach?

 

[Jiigzz]

What are the supposed effects if one isn't too become glycogen depleted and remain high carb? Would introducing a ketone body just reduce the body's need for glucose? What if you kept eating a high carb diet while using the product?

The directions for use would have to be quite explicit and all scenarios would have to be considered; marketing should cater for the lowest common denominator; esp. for those who do not understand how to enter ketosis.

"Our results show that short-term exposure to β-OHB (4 h) does not modify insulin action in cardiomyocytes. Therefore, the inhibition of insulin-stimulated glucose uptake observed in these cells is not consistent with a direct competition between glucose and β-OHB as energy sources. However, the regulation of glucose uptake could potentially result from the intracellular metabolism of β-OHB. It has been shown that ketone bodies modulate the production of a number of metabolites in the heart. Perfusion of the isolated heart with the ketone body acetoacetate increases the concentration of acetyl-CoA, acetoacetyl-CoA, and citrate (31-33, 36). Randle and coworkers (33) have proposed that an increase in citrate and acetoacetyl-CoA levels could inhibit phosphofructokinase and pyruvate dehydrogenase activity, respectively. This would lead to an increase in glucose 6-phosphate concentrations that could then inhibit hexokinase activity and reduce glucose uptake in the heart"

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1205.long

Thoughts?

 

[mr.cooper69]

I think we're rapidly losing physiological relevance here. Does anyone have kinetic/dynamic data on ketogenic acid oral administration?

 

[Jiigzz]

Guess we'll just wait and see what PA has to say

 

[MidwestBeast]

Subd for more info. Definitely a novel concept.

 

[aaronuconn]

I think we're rapidly losing physiological relevance here. Does anyone have kinetic/dynamic data on ketogenic acid oral administration?

I feel like if you don't know/can't find any full text articles, we'll all be waiting for PA.

 

[stxnas]

Subd for more info. Definitely a novel concept.

Oh hai! I thought maybe you forgot your sign in info. :lol:

 

[3clipseGT]

I am subbed as well.

 

[T-Bone]

Anyway, my understanding of the product is it is not something meant to be used daily or frequently. Isnt it meant more to be used for just a couple days to help transition you into ketosis faster and than you discontinue use? Perhaps after a refeed of one is doing a CKD approach?

That would be my interest, in using it that way. I'm not sure its actually worth the price tag right now though.....

 

[Celorza]

That would be my interest, in using it that way. I'm not sure its actually worth the price tag right now though.....

My understanding however is that it is a caloric energy source that is Glucose-less, alas in the form of Ketones...so maybe a "Pick-me-up" of energy that will NOT kick you out of ketosis. At least that is the understanding I got, since it is not glucose then oxygen consumption will go down (hence the ergogenic effect), and thus if it is significant enough it could help increase performance. Again...I'm not an expert.

Questions would be (if used for fatloss), if it's a caloric source...can it be stored as fat? What are the benefits of it concerning fat oxidation, or does it help fat oxidation directly, rather than delaying exhaustion time to help fat oxidation via prolonged exercise time?

 

[3clipseGT]

My understanding however is that it is a caloric energy source that is Glucose-less, alas in the form of Ketones...so maybe a "Pick-me-up" of energy that will NOT kick you out of ketosis. At least that is the understanding I got, since it is not glucose then oxygen consumption will go down (hence the ergogenic effect), and thus if it is significant enough it could help increase performance. Again...I'm not an expert.

Questions would be (if used for fatloss), if it's a caloric source...can it be stored as fat? What are the benefits of it concerning fat oxidation, or does it help fat oxidation directly, rather than delaying exhaustion time to help fat oxidation via prolonged exercise time?

IIRC these do not have calories and therefor cannot be stored as fat.

 

[Celorza]

IIRC these do not have calories and therefor cannot be stored as fat.

Where did you see this bro? I could be wrong then and ketoacids have no calories. I kinda understood them as similar to dextrose without kicking you out of ketosis.

 

[mr.cooper69]

They can't be stored as fat but they'll obviously suppress fat oxidation to a degree. Why would your body produce ketoacids when there are already sufficient quantities to meet metabolic demand?

 

[SonicSWOLE]

Where did you see this bro? I could be wrong then and ketoacids have no calories. I kinda understood them as similar to dextrose without kicking you out of ketosis.

They can't be stored as fat but they'll obviously suppress fat oxidation to a degree. Why would your body produce ketoacids when there are already sufficient quantities to meet metabolic demand?

As a CKD'er, I feel that MCT's would be just as efficacious (assumption, I know) and certainly more cost-effective. While Carb Loading, this product makes no sense. In Ketosis, I don't want supra ketone bodies (seems to kind of defeat the purpose of kd). I utterly fail to see how it would put you into Ketosis (for any real duration) more quickly. And again, on a CKD, I am not in a big rush to get into Ketosis, as I want some glycogen for my 2 heavy lifting days. I might just be making a lot of assumption so far, so I'll wait and see like everyone else.

 

[mr.cooper69]

As a CKD'er, I feel that MCT's would be just as efficacious (assumption, I know) and certainly more cost-effective. While Carb Loading, this product makes no sense. In Ketosis, I don't want supra ketone bodies (seems to kind of defeat the purpose of kd). I utterly fail to see how it would put you into Ketosis (for any real duration) more quickly. And again, on a CKD, I am not in a big rush to get into Ketosis, as I want some glycogen for my 2 heavy lifting days. I might just be making a lot of assumption so far, so I'll wait and see like everyone else.

Ketosis is simply elevated blood/tissue levels of ketoacids, which this product would produce instantly. I think you're referring to ketogenesis. Semantics maybe, but PA is saying that his product increases ketosis, not ketogenesis

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

ive been chatting with the thruth (one of pats reps) and we have a rather long keto thread going. hes said that he can eat a carb loaded meal (using this stuff)and return back to a ketogenic state all most like he never ate carbs.. I don't know if hes actually testing blood to prove these actions or if hes just peeing on strips wich would be rather inaccurate.

 

[JudoJosh]

The question I get when I consider the application of this post refeeds is, what about liver and muscle glycogen stores?

 

[RecompMan]

The question I get when I consider the application of this post refeeds is, what about liver and muscle glycogen stores?

I wouldn't worry about muscle glycogen being high. Mainly liver glycogen.

As far as I'm aware if your exposed to these keto acids your body may switch fuel sources to generate more atp?

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

could this cause the body to release the last stores of glucose?
for me I usually can drop carbs sunday night and reach ketosis by Tuesday night/ weds morning. I don't know exactly what benefit this would have though besides energy?

 

[JudoJosh]

I wouldn't worry about muscle glycogen being high. Mainly liver glycogen.

As far as I'm aware if your exposed to these keto acids your body may switch fuel sources to generate more atp?

Let me elaborate.

You are keto fieting and sre metabolically in ketosis. You have your refeed over the weekend and go to town at a sushi buffet. Now come Monday you supplement with these sodium and potassium BHB salts and it leads to a raise in blood ketone levels. Now with a substantial amount of ketones present im sure they will be used but what about the glycogen from the refeed? Once the ketones are utilized whats to keep you running on ketones?

 

[Jiigzz]

Let me elaborate.

You are keto fieting and sre metabolically in ketosis. You have your refeed over the weekend and go to town at a sushi buffet. Now come Monday you supplement with these sodium and potassium BHB salts and it leads to a raise in blood ketone levels. Now with a substantial amount of ketones present im sure they will be used but what about the glycogen from the refeed? Once the ketones are utilized whats to keep you running on ketones?

More and more ketones. So it won't be a true ketogenic state until glycogen stores are depleted; in this case, being in a ketogenic state (not just being in ketosis) implies that the body is carb depleted AND is producing ketone bodies through ketogenesis.

This could work well as a bridge between a true ketogenic state and being carb depleted as the body will have ample stores readily available. IMO at least.

 

[Bryancap77]

I'm also in for more info...

 

[De__eB]

Thoughts on the oxygen efficiency benefits during endurance exercise and how that would combine with the oxygen efficiency benefits of nitrates anyone?

 

[Diesel0022]

Should I take this with my glutamin and cee

 

[ax1]

As far as I know reading Lyle McDonald's material, you can still be in ketosis and eat 100 grams+ carbs a day.

You dont necessarily need to be fully depleted or have a urine test to show ketones to actually be in ketosis in some way.

I personally do TKD year round year after year (except for a short bulk last winter,) Ihave 50 grams of carbs in the morning, glucose pills post workout (taking glucose post workout lets your body prioritize storage in the muscle instead of the liver on TKD) and 25-50 grams additional from various sources (veggies, protein shakes, etc..).

 

[Diesel0022]

Meh. More snake oil. Elevated ketone levels are a byproduct if secondary metabolism pathways. Injecting extra ketones is like trying to improve your LDL/HDL level by injecting more HDL.

Hyper Ketosis isn't necessarily a good thing either. If I had a nickle for every time I heard a substance shrunk tumors in mice, I could retire.

 

[3clipseGT]

Meh. More snake oil. Elevated ketone levels are a byproduct if secondary metabolism pathways. Injecting extra ketones is like trying to improve your LDL/HDL level by injecting more HDL.

Hyper Ketosis isn't necessarily a good thing either. If I had a nickle for every time I heard a substance shrunk tumors in mice, I could retire.

I wouldnt call it snake oil. I took the recommended dose prior to my leg workout and the increase in endurance was very impressive. Is it expensive? Yes, but well worth it if you use them in the correct manner.

 

[T-Bone]

I'm interested in it for the endurance. Can't afford any supplements this week though, unless I want to live on the street. Or maybe in a van down by the river!

 

[T-Bone]

I'm still not convinced it's worth the money though. Also worried about the safety of this product....

 

[NADDANME]

More and more ketones. So it won't be a true ketogenic state until glycogen stores are depleted; in this case, being in a ketogenic state (not just being in ketosis) implies that the body is carb depleted AND is producing ketone bodies through ketogenesis.

This could work well as a bridge between a true ketogenic state and being carb depleted as the body will have ample stores readily available. IMO at least.

This^^
What would stop the body from completely dropping out of ketogenesis as soon a your dosage wears off. Unless your still burning glycogen stores at the same time just to a lesser degree.