7-KETO or NA-R-ALA? - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 2

7-KETO or NA-R-ALA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    No it isn't. Superdrol is muscle sparing.

    Ephedrine creates a catabolic environment.
    Your going to say ephedrine doesn't cause larger molecules to be broken down onto smaller ones, to be used for energy?
    Really?
    Lol ok, no it isn't. Time to read up on the physiology of the b2-adrenoreceptor before coming down with such a myopic reply. b2 stimulation in skeletal muscle provides an anti-proteolytic effect.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Lol ok, no it isn't. Time to read up on the physiology of the b2-adrenoreceptor before coming down with such a myopic reply. b2 stimulation in skeletal muscle provides an anti-proteolytic effect.
    sorry coop, but I've never noticed any muscle sparing benefits from using ephedrine.


    I'll go look for the specifics, but off the top of my head, I know b2 adrenoreceptors have a part in causing fats to be broken down into fatty acids, in order to be used for energy. ie, catabolism within the body.

    ephedrine should never be considered anti catabolic and muscle sparing. it makes one think it is somehow on a similar level with anabolic compounds.
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    ephedrine, ephinephrine, methamphetamines, all cause a catabolic response within the body. they are not anabolic.

    I understand the science and technical of what you are saying. but in reality, I am pretty set on believing ephedrine to be a catabolic hormone when all is said and done, as it's catabolic effects in my opinion out weigh any anti catabolic properties it might show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrub42 View Post
    Is that when using Reduce XT as a standalone, or is there really upwards of 150-200mg of 7-OH in 4 ABE (I know no one officially knows, but I feel like people more knowledgeable than myself have a pretty good idea)? I am just trying to figure out what an equivilant dose would be when used with regular AB. If there really is that much in ABE, then ABE is an even better value than I thought!

    Best,
    Tyler
    Just do two a day, as I am now, and if really need be up it to 3. Remember the idea behind cortisol is not to eliminate it entirely, rather reduce it (pun intended) to optimise bodily conditions under stress.

    Not to mention the bottle lasts longer and the chances of joint pain are also decreased.

    Dose one upon waking and one before bed, thanks to Coop and a few others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosophy View Post
    Just do two a day, as I am now, and if really need be up it to 3. Remember the idea behind cortisol is not to eliminate it entirely, rather reduce it (pun intended) to optimise bodily conditions under stress.

    Not to mention the bottle lasts longer and the chances of joint pain are also decreased.

    Dose one upon waking and one before bed, thanks to Coop and a few others.
    Word, thanks a lot! Honestly whatever amount that is in Anabeta Elite seems to be perfect for me, so I am just trying to figure out what would be the (rough) equivalent to that. I was hoping that it was going to be 1 pill, because that would make it affordable to use Reduce XT with OG Anabeta and forskolin for a rough equivalent to Anabeta Elite, and I would also have the freedom to dose closer to bedtime to help me sleep (whenever I get stressed I can't sleep; I recently put it together that it is most likely a cortisol issue). At 2 pills per day, the cost is a bit much to stack on top of everything else. Either way, it looks like a great supplement, though.

    I was under the impression that it would be better to wait until after breakfast to dose cortisol blockers because cortisol helps you wake up. Granted, I have already made it apparent that I know next to nothing about this though, so obviously I must have been mistaken haha. This is an area of supplimentation that I have only started researching within the last week or so, so I obviously have a lot to learn. Anyway, thanks again for the reply. I guess for questions specific to an ABE equivalent dose, I should prob ask the PES reps or someone who has experimented with 7 OH and Anabeta together.

    I might try relora for now, because I can get it from an internationally-minded online vitamin and "herb" shop that has 4 dollar worldwide shipping (bad prices though, so I would imagine they don't get much business from inside the US), and it seems like that will control cortisol spikes and aide sleep, so at the very least it gets the better-than-nothing award.

    Best,
    Tyler
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    Reduce xt > anabeta for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Reduce xt > anabeta for me.
    Yeah it seems like the general consensus best cort blocker. I am a super responder to Anabeta (I get huge strength increases, huge amounts of energy, and potent GDA effects), so I love it, but the extra ingredients in ABE is a night-and-day difference. I could definitely see why people love 7-OH (and the other ingredient, which I am sure works fantastically, too) in higher doses.

    Since you are an SNS rep, would you mind explaining the other ingredient in Reduce XT? I know it's related to 7-OH and also a cort blocker, so what does it bring to the party? Do the two compounds boost each other's effectiveness, or are their effects different somehow? Or is it just something to make it a little different than simply using 50mg of 7-OH? I am still interested in trying it, so any info you have would be awesome! Thanks!!!

    Best,
    Tyler
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    Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
    7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

    "It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
    So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

    The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
    7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

    "It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
    So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

    The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "
    OK after reading that a few times I got the meaning, haha. So 7-OH is regular 7-hydroxy DHEA right? And that does not convert to 7-oxo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
    7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

    "It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
    So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

    The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "
    OK after looking again at the ingredients, both the alpha and beta are in here. And both of those are different than regular 7-OH, which is just 7-hydroxy-DHEA?
    And the alpha converts to 7oxo (and back and forth) and to 7-beta (but not back and forth)? And how does 7-beta work?

    Thanks!
    Tyler
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    The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects

    I'll look more into it.

    Anabeta e. contains just the 7 beta isomer
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    Not sure, maybe some brighter minds than I can point out studies with benifits of 7b hydroxyl dhea
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Not sure, maybe some brighter minds than I can point out studies with benifits of 7b hydroxyl dhea
    Still teaching me plenty man, thanks . So ABE has 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea? And 7-alpha-hydroxy-dhea is a different compound that does convert to 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea but also to 7-oxo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrub42 View Post
    Still teaching me plenty man, thanks . So ABE has 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea? And 7-alpha-hydroxy-dhea is a different compound that does convert to 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea but also to 7-oxo?
    yes, but conversion is more so useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol.
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    7b hydroxy dhea is the strongest inhibitor of 11-hsd1 actually (ic50 data). The guys who you quoted, jbry (ds I presume), are quite incorrect.

    As for ephedrine, repeated human trials all show an increase in net weight loss, with more weight coming from fat and less coming from muscle. This is indeed the definition of a muscle sparing effect. I'm not comparing it to hormones by any means, but the effect is real. B2 agonism results in triglyceride catabolism in adipose tissue and a protein-sparing effect in skeletal muscle. A more extreme example would be clen, which people regularly use for its anti catabolic properties while cutting.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    They all interconvert FYI. It is in fact the original 7-keto that promotes thyroid function:

    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    They all interconvert FYI. It is in fact the original 7-keto that promotes thyroid function:
    Why 7 oh dhea over 7 oh epiandrosterone
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    7b hydroxy dhea is the strongest inhibitor of 11-hsd1 actually (ic50 data). The guys who you quoted, jbry (ds I presume), are quite incorrect.

    .
    That is who I quoted I think can't see digs on my phone, so don't know if it was a rep or not.

    Searching studies, I wasn't able to find anything specifically on beta version.
    If you know of them, I would appreciate a link so I can read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    That is who I quoted I think can't see digs on my phone, so don't know if it was a rep or not.

    Searching studies, I wasn't able to find anything specifically on beta version.
    If you know of them, I would appreciate a link so I can read.
    Epimerase activity of the human 11-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 on
    7-hydroxylated C19-steroids

    If you read the full text, the 7 beta isoform is the most potent and biologically valuable of the hydroxylated derivatives.
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    6 caps of reduce xt a day? Jesus that would get expensive. Can't believe that would really be necessary
    phaggy opinions+certainty=douchebag status
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quadzilla99 View Post
    6 caps of reduce xt a day? Jesus that would get expensive. Can't believe that would really be necessary
    Unhealthy amount considering how important cortisol is to quality of life overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quadzilla99 View Post
    6 caps of reduce xt a day? Jesus that would get expensive. Can't believe that would really be necessary
    I ran 6 caps e/d 4 weeks in a pct a while back. It was great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Unhealthy amount considering how important cortisol is to quality of life overall.
    An older post from Adel, but related to the topic:

    http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2013...all-about.html
    EvoMuse
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    An older post from Adel, but related to the topic:

    http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2013...all-about.html
    Very interesting read. New info for me, I am going to do a little more research on this though. Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    They all interconvert FYI. It is in fact the original 7-keto that promotes thyroid function:

    Thanks, Coop! So if I am understanding this correctly, the alpha and beta versions both do pretty much the same thing, as they both convert to each other (and 7-keto) in the body?

    And please confirm whether or not ABE uses the beta version of 7-oh.

    Oh, since you are a PES rep, can you comment on what dosage of Reduce XT would be roughly equivalent to 4 ABE?

    Thanks!
    Tyler
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrub42 View Post
    Thanks, Coop! So if I am understanding this correctly, the alpha and beta versions both do pretty much the same thing, as they both convert to each other (and 7-keto) in the body?

    And please confirm whether or not ABE uses the beta version of 7-oh.

    Oh, since you are a PES rep, can you comment on what dosage of Reduce XT would be roughly equivalent to 4 ABE?

    Thanks!
    Tyler
    ABE uses the beta form. I will not comment on the latter because that would be utilizing info from my days at SNS, which is unethical to say the least.
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    7b-hydroxy dhea can convert into 7b-hydroxy dhea? mind=blown

    /endanalassh0lemode
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post



    7b-hydroxy dhea can convert into 7b-hydroxy dhea? mind=blown

    /endanalassh0lemode
    Hah, not my diagram, but hopefully you get the picture. Idk how you caught something like that
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Hah, not my diagram, but hopefully you get the picture. Idk how you caught something like that
    examine.com it looks like. dont know if they took it from a study or not, things like that just irk me. just ignore me lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    ABE uses the beta form. I will not comment on the latter because that would be utilizing info from my days at SNS, which is unethical to say the least.
    Sorry for bumping an old thread. However, does anybody know whether the absence of 7 BETA-HYDROXY DHEA in the new ABE formula is because this substance brought no real advantage?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    ephedrine, ephinephrine, methamphetamines, all cause a catabolic response within the body. they are not anabolic.

    I understand the science and technical of what you are saying. but in reality, I am pretty set on believing ephedrine to be a catabolic hormone when all is said and done, as it's catabolic effects in my opinion out weigh any anti catabolic properties it might show.
    Ive never noitced muscle loss from e/c/a. Ive used it to recomp numerous times. Now t3 on the otherhand is catabolic at large doeses and It did make me lose strenght quicker than normal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXopA View Post
    Sorry for bumping an old thread. However, does anybody know whether the absence of 7 BETA-HYDROXY DHEA in the new ABE formula is because this substance brought no real advantage?
    I do know, and no, that isn't the reason. It's because we had too much cortisol control appearing in too many places and wanted to streamline the lineup. 7-b-OH does work and can still be found in Reduce XT
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    I do know, and no, that isn't the reason. It's because we had too much cortisol control appearing in too many places and wanted to streamline the lineup. 7-b-OH does work and can still be found in Reduce XT
    Indeed with Abe being stacked with erase all the time, you were killing cortisol. And cortisol gets a bad wrap but its a vital hormone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    Indeed with Abe being stacked with erase all the time, you were killing cortisol. And cortisol gets a bad wrap but its a vital hormone.
    so your suggestion would be not to take them together? I have planned to stack ABE (old version) / EP / DAA. The latter is said to raise estrogen levels, so maybe it could increase cortisol too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXopA View Post
    so your suggestion would be not to take them together? I have planned to stack ABE (old version) / EP / DAA. The latter is said to raise estrogen levels, so maybe it could increase cortisol too?
    You can certainly stack them. Plenty of people have stacked them with great results. The two combined are not going to kill cortisol to such a bad level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbayne View Post
    You can certainly stack them. Plenty of people have stacked them with great results. The two combined are not going to kill cortisol to such a bad level.
    well, we all know that cortisol is actually not such a catastrophic hormone, as it brings along not only catabolism in terms of muscle, but also of fat. so if we you're slashing it, you will probably cause a slowdown of fatty oxidation too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaXopA View Post
    well, we all know that cortisol is actually not such a catastrophic hormone, as it brings along not only catabolism in terms of muscle, but also of fat. so if we you're slashing it, you will probably cause a slowdown of fatty oxidation too.
    11b-hsd1 inhibition is not the same as lowering systemic cortisol
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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