7-KETO or NA-R-ALA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    7-keto is bunk orally.

    Na-R-ALA is more of a fat loss adjuvant.

    Forskolin can be used at any period (cutting/bulking) and is your best bet. Check out Sabinsa-licensed Forskolin-95 from Analyzed Supplements
    Sorry I think I have mixed up the nomenclature for 7-OH. I thought that 7-OH was the same as 7 keto DHEA. Please clarify this for me. 7-OH is the common name for the cortisol controlling ingredient in ABE right? Is it available as a standalone in pill form anywhere? I thought that NOW Food's 7 keto DHEA was the same thing, so I am glad I saw your post. Now I just want to track down the cheapest way to find 7 OH. Thanks!

    Best,
    Tyler
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrub42 View Post
    Sorry I think I have mixed up the nomenclature for 7-OH. I thought that 7-OH was the same as 7 keto DHEA. Please clarify this for me. 7-OH is the common name for the cortisol controlling ingredient in ABE right? Is it available as a standalone in pill form anywhere? I thought that NOW Food's 7 keto DHEA was the same thing, so I am glad I saw your post. Now I just want to track down the cheapest way to find 7 OH. Thanks!

    Best,
    Tyler
    After some googling, I think I got it. 7-OH is the same as 7-OH-DHEA (and 7-hydroxy-DHEA), right? Is it available to buy in bulk or in pill form cheaply? If not, is there another cortisol control supplement that is as good (or better) and orally bio-available (preferably available at Nutraplanet, but anything will do)? I love how great my mood is on ABE and I think the cortisol control is a big part of it. Thanks!

    Best,
    Tyler
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    I'd look into SNS Reduce XT for cort control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    I'd look into SNS Reduce XT for cort control.
    This, as you know its legit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    I'd look into SNS Reduce XT for cort control.
    Looks pretty much perfect. How many pills would I need for a (roughly) equivilant dose of cort control as 4 pills of ABE?
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    3-4 caps e/d for normal conditions

    5-6 for more intense/catabolic conditions (like pct, or cutting cycle using ephedrine, etc)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    3-4 caps e/d for normal conditions

    5-6 for more intense/catabolic conditions (like pct, or cutting cycle using ephedrine, etc)
    Ephedrine is not catabolic. It's actually muscle-sparing
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Ephedrine is not catabolic. It's actually muscle-sparing
    No it isn't. Superdrol is muscle sparing.
    Ephedrine is not.

    Ephedrine creates a catabolic environment.
    Your going to say ephedrine doesn't cause larger molecules to be broken down onto smaller ones, to be used for energy?
    Really? Who r you trying to fool here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    3-4 caps e/d for normal conditions

    5-6 for more intense/catabolic conditions (like pct, or cutting cycle using ephedrine, etc)
    Is that when using Reduce XT as a standalone, or is there really upwards of 150-200mg of 7-OH in 4 ABE (I know no one officially knows, but I feel like people more knowledgeable than myself have a pretty good idea)? I am just trying to figure out what an equivilant dose would be when used with regular AB. If there really is that much in ABE, then ABE is an even better value than I thought!

    Best,
    Tyler
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    No it isn't. Superdrol is muscle sparing.

    Ephedrine creates a catabolic environment.
    Your going to say ephedrine doesn't cause larger molecules to be broken down onto smaller ones, to be used for energy?
    Really?
    Lol ok, no it isn't. Time to read up on the physiology of the b2-adrenoreceptor before coming down with such a myopic reply. b2 stimulation in skeletal muscle provides an anti-proteolytic effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Lol ok, no it isn't. Time to read up on the physiology of the b2-adrenoreceptor before coming down with such a myopic reply. b2 stimulation in skeletal muscle provides an anti-proteolytic effect.
    sorry coop, but I've never noticed any muscle sparing benefits from using ephedrine.


    I'll go look for the specifics, but off the top of my head, I know b2 adrenoreceptors have a part in causing fats to be broken down into fatty acids, in order to be used for energy. ie, catabolism within the body.

    ephedrine should never be considered anti catabolic and muscle sparing. it makes one think it is somehow on a similar level with anabolic compounds.
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    ephedrine, ephinephrine, methamphetamines, all cause a catabolic response within the body. they are not anabolic.

    I understand the science and technical of what you are saying. but in reality, I am pretty set on believing ephedrine to be a catabolic hormone when all is said and done, as it's catabolic effects in my opinion out weigh any anti catabolic properties it might show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrub42 View Post
    Is that when using Reduce XT as a standalone, or is there really upwards of 150-200mg of 7-OH in 4 ABE (I know no one officially knows, but I feel like people more knowledgeable than myself have a pretty good idea)? I am just trying to figure out what an equivilant dose would be when used with regular AB. If there really is that much in ABE, then ABE is an even better value than I thought!

    Best,
    Tyler
    Just do two a day, as I am now, and if really need be up it to 3. Remember the idea behind cortisol is not to eliminate it entirely, rather reduce it (pun intended) to optimise bodily conditions under stress.

    Not to mention the bottle lasts longer and the chances of joint pain are also decreased.

    Dose one upon waking and one before bed, thanks to Coop and a few others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosophy View Post
    Just do two a day, as I am now, and if really need be up it to 3. Remember the idea behind cortisol is not to eliminate it entirely, rather reduce it (pun intended) to optimise bodily conditions under stress.

    Not to mention the bottle lasts longer and the chances of joint pain are also decreased.

    Dose one upon waking and one before bed, thanks to Coop and a few others.
    Word, thanks a lot! Honestly whatever amount that is in Anabeta Elite seems to be perfect for me, so I am just trying to figure out what would be the (rough) equivalent to that. I was hoping that it was going to be 1 pill, because that would make it affordable to use Reduce XT with OG Anabeta and forskolin for a rough equivalent to Anabeta Elite, and I would also have the freedom to dose closer to bedtime to help me sleep (whenever I get stressed I can't sleep; I recently put it together that it is most likely a cortisol issue). At 2 pills per day, the cost is a bit much to stack on top of everything else. Either way, it looks like a great supplement, though.

    I was under the impression that it would be better to wait until after breakfast to dose cortisol blockers because cortisol helps you wake up. Granted, I have already made it apparent that I know next to nothing about this though, so obviously I must have been mistaken haha. This is an area of supplimentation that I have only started researching within the last week or so, so I obviously have a lot to learn. Anyway, thanks again for the reply. I guess for questions specific to an ABE equivalent dose, I should prob ask the PES reps or someone who has experimented with 7 OH and Anabeta together.

    I might try relora for now, because I can get it from an internationally-minded online vitamin and "herb" shop that has 4 dollar worldwide shipping (bad prices though, so I would imagine they don't get much business from inside the US), and it seems like that will control cortisol spikes and aide sleep, so at the very least it gets the better-than-nothing award.

    Best,
    Tyler
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    Reduce xt > anabeta for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Reduce xt > anabeta for me.
    Yeah it seems like the general consensus best cort blocker. I am a super responder to Anabeta (I get huge strength increases, huge amounts of energy, and potent GDA effects), so I love it, but the extra ingredients in ABE is a night-and-day difference. I could definitely see why people love 7-OH (and the other ingredient, which I am sure works fantastically, too) in higher doses.

    Since you are an SNS rep, would you mind explaining the other ingredient in Reduce XT? I know it's related to 7-OH and also a cort blocker, so what does it bring to the party? Do the two compounds boost each other's effectiveness, or are their effects different somehow? Or is it just something to make it a little different than simply using 50mg of 7-OH? I am still interested in trying it, so any info you have would be awesome! Thanks!!!

    Best,
    Tyler
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    Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
    7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

    "It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
    So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

    The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
    7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

    "It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
    So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

    The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "
    OK after reading that a few times I got the meaning, haha. So 7-OH is regular 7-hydroxy DHEA right? And that does not convert to 7-oxo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
    7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

    "It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
    So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

    To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

    The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "
    OK after looking again at the ingredients, both the alpha and beta are in here. And both of those are different than regular 7-OH, which is just 7-hydroxy-DHEA?
    And the alpha converts to 7oxo (and back and forth) and to 7-beta (but not back and forth)? And how does 7-beta work?

    Thanks!
    Tyler
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    The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects

    I'll look more into it.

    Anabeta e. contains just the 7 beta isomer
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    Not sure, maybe some brighter minds than I can point out studies with benifits of 7b hydroxyl dhea
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Not sure, maybe some brighter minds than I can point out studies with benifits of 7b hydroxyl dhea
    Still teaching me plenty man, thanks . So ABE has 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea? And 7-alpha-hydroxy-dhea is a different compound that does convert to 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea but also to 7-oxo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrub42 View Post
    Still teaching me plenty man, thanks . So ABE has 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea? And 7-alpha-hydroxy-dhea is a different compound that does convert to 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea but also to 7-oxo?
    yes, but conversion is more so useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol.
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    7b hydroxy dhea is the strongest inhibitor of 11-hsd1 actually (ic50 data). The guys who you quoted, jbry (ds I presume), are quite incorrect.

    As for ephedrine, repeated human trials all show an increase in net weight loss, with more weight coming from fat and less coming from muscle. This is indeed the definition of a muscle sparing effect. I'm not comparing it to hormones by any means, but the effect is real. B2 agonism results in triglyceride catabolism in adipose tissue and a protein-sparing effect in skeletal muscle. A more extreme example would be clen, which people regularly use for its anti catabolic properties while cutting.
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    They all interconvert FYI. It is in fact the original 7-keto that promotes thyroid function:

    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    They all interconvert FYI. It is in fact the original 7-keto that promotes thyroid function:
    Why 7 oh dhea over 7 oh epiandrosterone
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    7b hydroxy dhea is the strongest inhibitor of 11-hsd1 actually (ic50 data). The guys who you quoted, jbry (ds I presume), are quite incorrect.

    .
    That is who I quoted I think can't see digs on my phone, so don't know if it was a rep or not.

    Searching studies, I wasn't able to find anything specifically on beta version.
    If you know of them, I would appreciate a link so I can read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    That is who I quoted I think can't see digs on my phone, so don't know if it was a rep or not.

    Searching studies, I wasn't able to find anything specifically on beta version.
    If you know of them, I would appreciate a link so I can read.
    Epimerase activity of the human 11-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 on
    7-hydroxylated C19-steroids

    If you read the full text, the 7 beta isoform is the most potent and biologically valuable of the hydroxylated derivatives.
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    6 caps of reduce xt a day? Jesus that would get expensive. Can't believe that would really be necessary
    phaggy opinions+certainty=douchebag status
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