7-KETO or NA-R-ALA?

[amarula]

Hi all


I'm planning a clean bulk but because I easily add fat along with muscle I wonder if one of this supplements can help me control fat gain. If so wich one should I choose?

 

[iCeCreame]

neither. go with Forskolin.

 

[bolt10]

neither. go with Forskolin.

When in doubt go with forskolin.

I do really like Na-RALA and would choose that out of the two choices you are looking at, but fat gain (or lack thereof) will be more dependent on diet. Na+RALA has some very nice benefits though and it is a near staple for me.

 

[iCeCreame]

would be great to get information bout Na-RALA thourgh my research as i get it is a antioxidant which promote fatloss. any effets in lean mass though?

 

[kbayne]

Na-R-ALA out of those two.

 

[mike0589]

7 Keto and Phosphatidylcholine.

 

[mr.cooper69]

7-keto is bunk orally.

Na-R-ALA is more of a fat loss adjuvant.

Forskolin can be used at any period (cutting/bulking) and is your best bet. Check out Sabinsa-licensed Forskolin-95 from Analyzed Supplements

 

[criticalbench]

Forskolin has recently become a staple for me. I use it in tropinol xp right now, and synthetic supplements when not on tropinol xp.

Mike

 

[Wilsy7]

Forskolin has recently become a staple for me. I use it in tropinol xp right now, and synthetic supplements when not on tropinol xp.

Mike

I didn't realiser there was forskolin in XP! Nice!

 

[amarula]

7-keto is bunk orally.

Na-R-ALA is more of a fat loss adjuvant.

Forskolin can be used at any period (cutting/bulking) and is your best bet. Check out Sabinsa-licensed Forskolin-95 from Analyzed Supplements

I was thinking about na-r-ala for carb control. Meaning that I'm affraid that the increase of carbs in my diet for bulk purposes, may actually mean fat gain because I suspect that insulin insensivity is the big reason for me to add fat so easily when bulking

 

[kbayne]

I was thinking about na-r-ala for carb control. Meaning that I'm affraid that the increase of carbs in my diet for bulk purposes, may actually mean fat gain because I suspect that insulin insensivity is the big reason for me to add fat so easily when bulking

Check into Recompadrol or Slin Sane v2.

 

[RecompMan]

I was thinking about na-r-ala for carb control. Meaning that I'm affraid that the increase of carbs in my diet for bulk purposes, may actually mean fat gain because I suspect that insulin insensivity is the big reason for me to add fat so easily when bulking

That's why recompadrol was developed.

Take a look at it. It's at a really low price right now on nutraplaney

 

[mayhem99]

If you are worried that much much about insulin R-ala should help with that at least that is what the studies say cinnamon helps as well apple cider vinger there is list resveratrol i think helps again according to studies. My though eat whole food meals with fat protein and carbs it's not sexy but works the same was as all those supps for free. BTW keto 7 really only works in trans dermal application.

 

[PrepNwa23]

If you are worried that much much about insulin R-ala should help with that at least that is what the studies say cinnamon helps as well apple cider vinger there is list resveratrol i think helps again according to studies. My though eat whole food meals with fat protein and carbs it's not sexy but works the same was as all those supps for free. BTW keto 7 really only works in trans dermal application.

7-keto is nice transdermally. But out of the two options the OP listed NA is a better choice.

 

[mayhem99]

I never really tried NA-R-ALA. I know the studies behind it say its good stuff and helps with glucose uptake but I just control my diet for me and keep my supps to a min now a days. How ever i see you are a PES rep I love your guys stuff all of it tried many things in the past you all got a GREAT pre-work out.

 

[RecompMan]

7-keto is bunk orally.

Na-R-ALA is more of a fat loss adjuvant.

Forskolin can be used at any period (cutting/bulking) and is your best bet. Check out Sabinsa-licensed Forskolin-95 from Analyzed Supplements

I happen to notice a difference in body composition at 200mg orally a day.

I use the transdermal very spuratically. Like today when I'm with a female and don't want the burn of eviscerate ruining anything lol

Forskolin is awesome! Higher you dose the better it seems to work for me.

Osthole is another option for bulking or cutting it also acts as a gda/insulin mimetic

 

[Solar]

I am afraid of fat gain, as I lost over 100 pounds when I got started with fitness. I now want to gain muscle, but the thought of puting any of that fat back scares me.

The Glucose disposal agents are a staple of mine. My favorite is recompradol.

I cycle recompradol per the instructions on the bottle.

I also mix a table spoon of hi maze resistant startch into my protein shakes.

I take a slugger balance pill before meals that include cinnimon, fenugreek, and bitter melon.

Lastly, I use Advanced Anti-Adipocyte from life extension to prevent carbs from turning into fat.

EBF just release their metabolic powder that is similar in concept but much cheeper than than the life extension product so I am trying that out.

 

[RecompMan]

I am afraid of fat gain, as I lost over 100 pounds when I got started with fitness. I now want to gain muscle, but the thought of puting any of that fat back scares me.

The Glucose disposal agents are a staple of mine. My favorite is recompradol.

I cycle recompradol per the instructions on the bottle.

I also mix a table spoon of hi maze resistant startch into my protein shakes.

I take a slugger balance pill before meals that include cinnimon, fenugreek, and bitter melon.

Lastly, I use Advanced Anti-Adipocyte from life extension to prevent carbs from turning into fat.

EBF just release their metabolic powder that is similar in concept but much cheeper than than the life extension product so I am trying that out.

Yes metabolic powder will be great for your goals.


You'll see that your able to eat significantly more when your taking it.

I've noticed te best lean gains on metabolic powder with cnidium 20% osthole

 

[EatMoar]

I used forskolin in ABE and it worked wonders but I found out I put on water way quicker than fat. I added slinsane in the mix and am able to stay lean during a lean bulk with a decent amount of carbs.

 

[LiveToLift]

I used forskolin in ABE and it worked wonders but I found out I put on water way quicker than fat. I added slinsane in the mix and am able to stay lean during a lean bulk with a decent amount of carbs.

Try adding erase pro and tell me what you think. Should help dry you right up. Glad you enjoyed ABE sir.

 

[Jcweinsx]

My blood sugar runs a little high and carbs just elevate my blood sugar more if I eat too many. Try using fats for more of your excess calories, like peanut butter (get one w/o extra sugar), olive oil, coconut oil, and walnuts almonds.

I'm using usp anabolic pump for carb control, just started so dont have any feedback on it yet.

Also a fan of forskolin. Have used Tropinol XP and bio forge pro max. Both worked well for me.

 

[mr.cooper69]

My blood sugar runs a little high and carbs just elevate my blood sugar more if I eat too many. Try using fats for more of your excess calories, like peanut butter (get one w/o extra sugar), olive oil, coconut oil, and walnuts almonds.

I'm using usp anabolic pump for carb control, just started so dont have any feedback on it yet.

Also a fan of forskolin. Have used Tropinol XP and bio forge pro max. Both worked well for me.

Some may be surprised that mega-dosed TUDCA is arguably the best GDA on the market

 

[PrepNwa23]

Some may be surprised that mega-dosed TUDCA is arguably the best GDA on the market

Lol that's an expensive GDA.

 

[mayhem99]

Try adding erase pro and tell me what you think. Should help dry you right up. Glad you enjoyed ABE sir.

I have used erase before and that statement is spot one. I couldn't do erase pro for some reason I have to step up to full dose but I still got the effect.

 

[Solar]

What is ABE, sorry if I should know?

 

[hvactech]

What is ABE, sorry if I should know?

Anabeta elite

 

[kbayne]

What is ABE, sorry if I should know?

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/pesupplments/anabeta-elite-120-capsules.html

 

[Solar]

I've noticed te best lean gains on metabolic powder with cnidium 20% osthole

I am not familar with this, can you point me to anyinfo? Do you have a product recomendation?

 

[RecompMan]

This is the link to metabolic powder


http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/lean-body-formulations/metabolic-powder-50-servings.html

As far as the osthole you need to search around for cnidium extract. I recommend buying it in bulk and dose it at 1-2g per day of the 20% extract.

 

[jerrysiii]

Yes metabolic powder will be great for your goals.


You'll see that your able to eat significantly more when your taking it.

I've noticed te best lean gains on metabolic powder with cnidium 20% osthole

Interesting product. I may give t a shot. What do you suggest as best timing. I eat carbs in the morning, pre, and post workout.

 

[RecompMan]

You can cook it into your food. Or you can take 1 scoop pre and 2 post

 

[tyrub42]

7-keto is bunk orally.

Na-R-ALA is more of a fat loss adjuvant.

Forskolin can be used at any period (cutting/bulking) and is your best bet. Check out Sabinsa-licensed Forskolin-95 from Analyzed Supplements

Sorry I think I have mixed up the nomenclature for 7-OH. I thought that 7-OH was the same as 7 keto DHEA. Please clarify this for me. 7-OH is the common name for the cortisol controlling ingredient in ABE right? Is it available as a standalone in pill form anywhere? I thought that NOW Food's 7 keto DHEA was the same thing, so I am glad I saw your post. Now I just want to track down the cheapest way to find 7 OH. Thanks!

Best,
Tyler

 

[tyrub42]

Sorry I think I have mixed up the nomenclature for 7-OH. I thought that 7-OH was the same as 7 keto DHEA. Please clarify this for me. 7-OH is the common name for the cortisol controlling ingredient in ABE right? Is it available as a standalone in pill form anywhere? I thought that NOW Food's 7 keto DHEA was the same thing, so I am glad I saw your post. Now I just want to track down the cheapest way to find 7 OH. Thanks!

Best,
Tyler

After some googling, I think I got it. 7-OH is the same as 7-OH-DHEA (and 7-hydroxy-DHEA), right? Is it available to buy in bulk or in pill form cheaply? If not, is there another cortisol control supplement that is as good (or better) and orally bio-available (preferably available at Nutraplanet, but anything will do)? I love how great my mood is on ABE and I think the cortisol control is a big part of it. Thanks!

Best,
Tyler

 

[bolt10]

I'd look into SNS Reduce XT for cort control.

 

[jbryand101b]

I'd look into SNS Reduce XT for cort control.

This, as you know its legit.

 

[tyrub42]

I'd look into SNS Reduce XT for cort control.

Looks pretty much perfect. How many pills would I need for a (roughly) equivilant dose of cort control as 4 pills of ABE?

 

[jbryand101b]

3-4 caps e/d for normal conditions

5-6 for more intense/catabolic conditions (like pct, or cutting cycle using ephedrine, etc)

 

[mr.cooper69]

3-4 caps e/d for normal conditions

5-6 for more intense/catabolic conditions (like pct, or cutting cycle using ephedrine, etc)

Ephedrine is not catabolic. It's actually muscle-sparing

 

[jbryand101b]

Ephedrine is not catabolic. It's actually muscle-sparing

No it isn't. Superdrol is muscle sparing.
Ephedrine is not.

Ephedrine creates a catabolic environment.
Your going to say ephedrine doesn't cause larger molecules to be broken down onto smaller ones, to be used for energy?
Really? Who r you trying to fool here?

 

[tyrub42]

3-4 caps e/d for normal conditions

5-6 for more intense/catabolic conditions (like pct, or cutting cycle using ephedrine, etc)

Is that when using Reduce XT as a standalone, or is there really upwards of 150-200mg of 7-OH in 4 ABE (I know no one officially knows, but I feel like people more knowledgeable than myself have a pretty good idea)? I am just trying to figure out what an equivilant dose would be when used with regular AB. If there really is that much in ABE, then ABE is an even better value than I thought!

Best,
Tyler

 

[mr.cooper69]

No it isn't. Superdrol is muscle sparing.

Ephedrine creates a catabolic environment.
Your going to say ephedrine doesn't cause larger molecules to be broken down onto smaller ones, to be used for energy?
Really?

Lol ok, no it isn't. Time to read up on the physiology of the b2-adrenoreceptor before coming down with such a myopic reply. b2 stimulation in skeletal muscle provides an anti-proteolytic effect.

 

[jbryand101b]

Lol ok, no it isn't. Time to read up on the physiology of the b2-adrenoreceptor before coming down with such a myopic reply. b2 stimulation in skeletal muscle provides an anti-proteolytic effect.

sorry coop, but I've never noticed any muscle sparing benefits from using ephedrine.


I'll go look for the specifics, but off the top of my head, I know b2 adrenoreceptors have a part in causing fats to be broken down into fatty acids, in order to be used for energy. ie, catabolism within the body.

ephedrine should never be considered anti catabolic and muscle sparing. it makes one think it is somehow on a similar level with anabolic compounds.

 

[jbryand101b]

ephedrine, ephinephrine, methamphetamines, all cause a catabolic response within the body. they are not anabolic.

I understand the science and technical of what you are saying. but in reality, I am pretty set on believing ephedrine to be a catabolic hormone when all is said and done, as it's catabolic effects in my opinion out weigh any anti catabolic properties it might show.

 

[Philosophy]

Is that when using Reduce XT as a standalone, or is there really upwards of 150-200mg of 7-OH in 4 ABE (I know no one officially knows, but I feel like people more knowledgeable than myself have a pretty good idea)? I am just trying to figure out what an equivilant dose would be when used with regular AB. If there really is that much in ABE, then ABE is an even better value than I thought!

Best,
Tyler

Just do two a day, as I am now, and if really need be up it to 3. Remember the idea behind cortisol is not to eliminate it entirely, rather reduce it (pun intended) to optimise bodily conditions under stress.

Not to mention the bottle lasts longer and the chances of joint pain are also decreased.

Dose one upon waking and one before bed, thanks to Coop and a few others.

 

[tyrub42]

Just do two a day, as I am now, and if really need be up it to 3. Remember the idea behind cortisol is not to eliminate it entirely, rather reduce it (pun intended) to optimise bodily conditions under stress.

Not to mention the bottle lasts longer and the chances of joint pain are also decreased.

Dose one upon waking and one before bed, thanks to Coop and a few others.

Word, thanks a lot! Honestly whatever amount that is in Anabeta Elite seems to be perfect for me, so I am just trying to figure out what would be the (rough) equivalent to that. I was hoping that it was going to be 1 pill, because that would make it affordable to use Reduce XT with OG Anabeta and forskolin for a rough equivalent to Anabeta Elite, and I would also have the freedom to dose closer to bedtime to help me sleep (whenever I get stressed I can't sleep; I recently put it together that it is most likely a cortisol issue). At 2 pills per day, the cost is a bit much to stack on top of everything else. Either way, it looks like a great supplement, though.

I was under the impression that it would be better to wait until after breakfast to dose cortisol blockers because cortisol helps you wake up. Granted, I have already made it apparent that I know next to nothing about this though, so obviously I must have been mistaken haha. This is an area of supplimentation that I have only started researching within the last week or so, so I obviously have a lot to learn. Anyway, thanks again for the reply. I guess for questions specific to an ABE equivalent dose, I should prob ask the PES reps or someone who has experimented with 7 OH and Anabeta together.

I might try relora for now, because I can get it from an internationally-minded online vitamin and "herb" shop that has 4 dollar worldwide shipping (bad prices though, so I would imagine they don't get much business from inside the US), and it seems like that will control cortisol spikes and aide sleep, so at the very least it gets the better-than-nothing award.

Best,
Tyler

 

[jbryand101b]

Reduce xt > anabeta for me.

 

[tyrub42]

Reduce xt > anabeta for me.

Yeah it seems like the general consensus best cort blocker. I am a super responder to Anabeta (I get huge strength increases, huge amounts of energy, and potent GDA effects), so I love it, but the extra ingredients in ABE is a night-and-day difference. I could definitely see why people love 7-OH (and the other ingredient, which I am sure works fantastically, too) in higher doses.

Since you are an SNS rep, would you mind explaining the other ingredient in Reduce XT? I know it's related to 7-OH and also a cort blocker, so what does it bring to the party? Do the two compounds boost each other's effectiveness, or are their effects different somehow? Or is it just something to make it a little different than simply using 50mg of 7-OH? I am still interested in trying it, so any info you have would be awesome! Thanks!!!

Best,
Tyler

 

[jbryand101b]

Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

"It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "

 

[tyrub42]

Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

"It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "

OK after reading that a few times I got the meaning, haha. So 7-OH is regular 7-hydroxy DHEA right? And that does not convert to 7-oxo?

 

[tyrub42]

Reduce xt contains alpha an beta isomers.
7-alpha-hydroxy-DHEA is a by-product of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that is formed in the body.

"It is suggested that the 7-alpha isomer converts to 7-oxo and 7-beta, of which only the 7-oxo can convert back to 7-alpha (and back again, in cycles). This is useful for competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

The 7-beta apparently does not convert to either forms.
So no competitive inhibition of the enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol

To convert, the HSD11 enzyme is used, which is also the enzyme used to convert the relatively inert cortisone to cortisol"

The beta hydroxyisomer does appear to be the one correlated with the thyroid and cognative boosting effects though, so its not a waste "

OK after looking again at the ingredients, both the alpha and beta are in here. And both of those are different than regular 7-OH, which is just 7-hydroxy-DHEA?
And the alpha converts to 7oxo (and back and forth) and to 7-beta (but not back and forth)? And how does 7-beta work?

Thanks!
Tyler