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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Hi Aleks, I know, would like to see if those additional factors, fat, calories, etc. actually have a significant difference in muscle growth.
    You're seriously questioning whether or not extra calories contribute to muscle growth!? What's next...questioning whether testosterone makes a significant difference?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You're seriously questioning whether or not extra calories contribute to muscle growth!? What's next...questioning whether testosterone makes a significant difference?
    That is what he was saying in the other thread. I think he is under the illusion that protein alone dictates weight gain, at least this is how I interpreted it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You're seriously questioning whether or not extra calories contribute to muscle growth!? What's next...questioning whether testosterone makes a significant difference?
    Yes, that is exactly what I am questioning. If there is not a scientific study proving it does, it would be irrational to not question it. Does that not make sense to you. And I am not talking about mass, I am talking about muscle mass. Obviously more calories will increase mass, but which.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    That is what he was saying in the other thread. I think he is under the illusion that protein alone dictates weight gain, at least this is how I interpreted it
    Misinterpreted. Not discussing weight gain. Discussing muscle gain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Yes, that is exactly what I am questioning. If there is not a scientific study proving it does, it would be irrational to not question it. Does that not make sense to you. And I am not talking about mass, I am talking about muscle mass. Obviously more calories will increase mass, but which.
    FFS, you're just a lost cause. There are an incalculable number of factors that play into the hypertrophic response beyond a specific macronutrient. It's irrational to not understand how mutlifaceted this equation is and that there will never be a definitive statement that will apply to everyone based on simple percentages and genetics. You first need to initiate an appropriate metabolic response before any hypertrophy can occur and, again, there will never be a universal approach to this. You then have to take into account genetic factors, lifestyle, age, work capacity, caloric intake, insulin responses, etc.. However, what you're essentially questioning is thermodynamics and those are proven laws of physics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    I know it is, but protein powder is real food. It's whey. And it is delivering protein.
    No it's not it processed food per digested for you.
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    guy is making friends so rapidly!
    his stay here is certain to be enjoyable
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    guy is making friends so rapidly!
    his stay here is certain to be enjoyable
    I don't see "his stay here" being very long lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    FFS, you're just a lost cause. There are an incalculable number of factors that play into the hypertrophic response beyond a specific macronutrient. It's irrational to not understand how mutlifaceted this equation is and that there will never be a definitive statement that will apply to everyone based on simple percentages and genetics. You first need to initiate an appropriate metabolic response before any hypertrophy can occur and, again, there will never be a universal approach to this. You then have to take into account genetic factors, lifestyle, age, work capacity, caloric intake, insulin responses, etc.. However, what you're essentially questioning is thermodynamics and those are proven laws of physics.
    You're wrong, you're just obfuscating the issue by misdirecting the intent. You can definitely do studies with a large enough sample group to account for variable that still shows a consistent value. And the averaged data will account for anomalies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugger48 View Post
    No it's not it processed food per digested for you.
    So are hot dogs, but those would be considered a real food.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danb2285 View Post
    I don't see "his stay here" being very long lol
    you're so witty. Wouldn't want anyone to stay here to challenge what you follow blindly. Thanks for representing all followers of the past quarter million years of humanity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    you're so witty. Wouldn't want anyone to stay here to challenge what you follow blindly. Thanks for representing all followers of the past quarter million years of humanity.
    lol easy champ just a joke
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    You're wrong, you're just obfuscating the issue by misdirecting the intent. You can definitely do studies with a large enough sample group to account for variable that still shows a consistent value. And the averaged data will account for anomalies.
    Funny how you think you can grasp how to conduct peer-reviewed research yet can't grasp the most elementary of concepts. If it's so easy to do said category of study, then why has nothing of the sort ever been conducted? You would need millions of people from multiple ethnic backgrounds to even scratch the surface of having data large enough to account for the possible variables and it would have to be a longitudinal study, not something that could be decided in a mere 8-12 weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Funny how you think you can grasp how to conduct peer-reviewed research yet can't grasp the most elementary of concepts. If it's so easy to do said category of study, then why has nothing of the sort ever been conducted? You would need millions of people from multiple ethnic backgrounds to even scratch the surface of having data large enough to account for the possible variables and it would have to be a longitudinal study, not something that could be decided in a mere 8-12 weeks.
    Thats absurd. You'd need no more than 100 people to give a reasonable result. For one to two months. You're just wrong, and what you're saying is completely unfounded, just words from your mouth.
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    Alright guys, Im done here. I don't get off squabbling. I came on here to ask if there has been a study. To our collective knowledge there has not. That means, regardless of what you are saying, you are all following a path that is literally and definitively based on nothing. Regardless of how you want to spin it to delude yourselves. Just so you know. Based on absolutely nothing. Unless you can post a study, there is nothing more to be said. I'm sure when I leave you'll take turns throwing jabs at me, but I won't be here to read it, so it will only be for your own perverse self gratification, but have fun with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Alright guys, Im done here. I don't get off squabbling. I came on here to ask if there has been a study. To our collective knowledge there has not. That means, regardless of what you are saying, you are all following a path that is literally and definitively based on nothing. Regardless of how you want to spin it to delude yourselves. Just so you know. Based on absolutely nothing. Unless you can post a study, there is nothing more to be said. I'm sure when I leave you'll take turns throwing jabs at me, but I won't be here to read it, so it will only be for your own perverse self gratification, but have fun with it.
    If your question is what do the additional factors bring to anabolism, then you need to stop searching pubmed and take a basic biochemistry course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Thats absurd. You'd need no more than 100 people to give a reasonable result. For one to two months. You're just wrong, and what you're saying is completely unfounded, just words from your mouth.
    8 weeks is barely even worth mentioning when it comes to finding definitive results on anything when it comes to hypertrophy. You're talking about, at best, 2-3lbs of LBM growth under the most ideal of circumstances and this is not something that will be linear. If it were, everyone would 240+lbs and lean, which is not the case.
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    I really haven seen any research that supports this at all. When it comes to protein supplements it really is just supposed to add to your daily food content that your taking in. I think that you should drink 1-2 shakes per day in addition to your regular meals just for added protein. Make sure you are meeting your macros though that's really important. If you are doing this then everything else will come together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Guys, there have been a LOT of vague answers here based simply on what you do as opposed to the factual science of it. Got it, meat has more nutrients, oils, etc. But my question is, can anyone link me to any "scientific data" that shows eating meat increases muscle growth more/faster than the equivalent amount of protein taken via WPI. I don't want to hear any anecdotal data about what you do and how it helps, Im just curious if there's a link to a scientific study that compares the two - that is all that matters.
    Theoretically and logically there is no difference, the only difference will be in the digestion of the two which is quite small. It's the same concept as should I eat 1kg of oranges or take a vitamin c tablet...The biggest problem with taking only shakes is satiety, hence it is not recommended. Otherwise the source of the macro is not overly important. Eat 200g of protein from insects if you want.
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    You seem to be over thinking this too much and at the same time over simplifying the complexity of it. If you looking for a reason to justify a decision you have to prefer whey over meat. If you want a shake then drink a shake
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    So are hot dogs, but those would be considered a real food.
    That's a no too, your missing the point.


    Key word is supplement. Maybe you will figure that one out.


    But you get

    +1000000 points for having no real point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Don't be offended, you should know that Mike is an insecure defensive numnut who, with the most sincere form of idiocy, lamely attacks anyone who shows him that he's in actuality, an idiot.
    I'm the idiot yet you repost the same idiotic thread in two places hoping you would get a better response after you talk shlt to anyone that says anything you dont want to hear? Obviously your "curiosity" on the topic is not going to be satisfied because no such study exists and your bird brain fantasies are better off staying in your head. I seriously hope you talk like this in the real world so somebody can hand you what you deserve. I doubt itll happen though because you're a little punk Internet bad ass that resorts to weak homophobic insults and small dick references..Seems like your true topic of interest may lay elsewhere... Like chat roulette.
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    Ahhhhh.....and i was going to skip this thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    FFS, you're just a lost cause. There are an incalculable number of factors that play into the hypertrophic response beyond a specific macronutrient. It's irrational to not understand how mutlifaceted this equation is and that there will never be a definitive statement that will apply to everyone based on simple percentages and genetics. You first need to initiate an appropriate metabolic response before any hypertrophy can occur and, again, there will never be a universal approach to this. You then have to take into account genetic factors, lifestyle, age, work capacity, caloric intake, insulin responses, etc.. However, what you're essentially questioning is thermodynamics and those are proven laws of physics.
    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    You're wrong, you're just obfuscating . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danb2285 View Post

    I don't see "his stay here" being very long lol
    Quote Originally Posted by MusclesFrogs View Post
    Alright guys, Im done here. I don't get off squabbling. I came on here to ask if there has been a study. To our collective knowledge there has not. That means, regardless of what you are saying, you are all following a path that is literally and definitively based on nothing. Regardless of how you want to spin it to delude yourselves. Just so you know. Based on absolutely nothing. Unless you can post a study, there is nothing more to be said. I'm sure when I leave you'll take turns throwing jabs at me, but I won't be here to read it, so it will only be for your own perverse self gratification, but have fun with it.
    51 mins apart...just wanted everyone to see I called that one lmao
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    There are no studies and there never will be.

    Whey protein isolate makers would never want to spend so much money to conduct an in depth study just to be handily trounced by chicken or steak. So there is one potential funding source...and that source has proven over time that it is totally uninterested in opening up competition with whole food protein sources.

    Whole food providers, like chicken and beef co-ops don't see WPI as a competitor either. So you won't see them funding a study that measures MPS or really anything vs whey protein.


    Rationally, the study doesn't exist and it will never exist. The absence of a study does not prove or disprove anything, but if it helps you sleep at night on your hospital bed feeding tube diet then w/e.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutztenways View Post
    There are no studies and there never will be.

    Whey protein isolate makers would never want to spend so much money to conduct an in depth study just to be handily trounced by chicken or steak. So there is one potential funding source...and that source has proven over time that it is totally uninterested in opening up competition with whole food protein sources.

    Whole food providers, like chicken and beef co-ops don't see WPI as a competitor either. So you won't see them funding a study that measures MPS or really anything vs whey protein.


    Rationally, the study doesn't exist and it will never exist. The absence of a study does not prove or disprove anything, but if it helps you sleep at night on your hospital bed feeding tube diet then w/e.
    You state there are no studies hence it is neither proved nor disproved yet you answer the query yourself...Also why would companies want to conduct a study for this matter, it is essentially proving 5 is equal to 5. Whether you get 200g of protein from meat or 200g of protein from whey isolate or 200g of protein from plants, you end up with 200g of protein. The only differences being digestion and satiety.

    Practically all living things need protein(amino) to survive on this earth, not all of them get their protein from meats. Not even the cow which provides us with beef, and the list goes on. Vegans are human examples of getting their protein requirements from sources other than meats. Meat is not the be all and end all for protein.
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    you guys are all clueless
    mike mentzer had it right, drinking his own piss..
    purified protein, FTW
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlawed View Post
    You state there are no studies hence it is neither proved nor disproved yet you answer the query yourself...Also why would companies want to conduct a study for this matter, it is essentially proving 5 is equal to 5. Whether you get 200g of protein from meat or 200g of protein from whey isolate or 200g of protein from plants, you end up with 200g of protein. The only differences being digestion and satiety.

    Practically all living things need protein(amino) to survive on this earth, not all of them get their protein from meats. Not even the cow which provides us with beef, and the list goes on. Vegans are human examples of getting their protein requirements from sources other than meats. Meat is not the be all and end all for protein.
    All protein is not created equal and biological value and efficiency have to be considered as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    All protein is not created equal and biological value and efficiency have to be considered as well.
    True, all protein is not equal. However all protein is amino based on earth, so even if it is incomplete it will be used by the organism for it's worth. In this case there is not much difference between protein from meat and whey (milk).
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlawed View Post
    True, all protein is not equal. However all protein is amino based on earth, so even if it is incomplete it will be used by the organism for it's worth. In this case there is not much difference between protein from meat and whey (milk).
    Yes, there is a very big difference in proteins (e.g. BV, PDCAA, NPU, etc.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Yes, there is a very big difference in proteins (e.g. BV, PDCAA, NPU, etc.)
    You are overcomplicating the comparison. Whey is regarded highly when searching those acronyms, so are certain meats. Hence the difference is there but relatively negligible as both Whey and Meat are quite complete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlawed View Post
    You state there are no studies hence it is neither proved nor disproved yet you answer the query yourself...Also why would companies want to conduct a study for this matter, it is essentially proving 5 is equal to 5. Whether you get 200g of protein from meat or 200g of protein from whey isolate or 200g of protein from plants, you end up with 200g of protein. The only differences being digestion and satiety.

    Practically all living things need protein(amino) to survive on this earth, not all of them get their protein from meats. Not even the cow which provides us with beef, and the list goes on. Vegans are human examples of getting their protein requirements from sources other than meats. Meat is not the be all and end all for protein.
    That was unclear on my part. I didn't mean to imply that whey would lose to chicken or steak, just that it would be possible. Why would whey protein makers want to open up competition with other protein sources when right now it is competing with water or sugar water in all the sensationalized graphs you see on the back of the tubs.

    It would just be bad business to pick a fight with whole food protein sources, because right now the two (whey powder and whole food) don't really complete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andro69 View Post
    Ahhhhh.....and i was going to skip this thread
    Lol me too... these threads make me smile (not sure if I've ever seen that emoticon used b4 lol so just putting a dancing man here)
  

  
 

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