Arachidonic Acid (ArA) Alone or with Fish Oil?

w_llewellyn

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I just want to take a moment to specifically address the notion that Arachidonic Acid (ArA) should be taken alone, without fish oil, for maximum anabolic effect. While this may be true for some individuals, we at Molecular Nutrition have found through years of trial and error that fish oil can augment the anabolic effects of ArA in many individuals. This is why we added Omega-3 EFA’s to X-Factor Advanced. A recent study may help explain why there may be such synergy.

The study in question examined the metabolic effects of fish oil supplementation in young men. As part of this, the researchers measured prostaglandin (PG) levels. As you may know, PGF2-alpha is a prostaglandin produced from arachidonic acid, and is the PG primarily related to protein synthesis and muscle growth. It is what we’re looking for more of when taking ArA. The researchers must have expected a reduction in PGF2-alpha after fish oil, given its known competitive nature with ArA. However, the opposite occurred. Fish oil resulted in a substantial increase in PGF2-alpha.

What is probably going on is that the omega-3 EFA’s in fish oil are displacing membrane-bound ArA, causing it to enter circulation where it is available for PG synthesis. So instead of being counterproductive, taking fish oil alongside ArA may actually cause you to have a greater increase in the serum level of muscle-building prostaglandins. Whatever the exact mechanism, we are not noticing the inhibition everyone expected.

It probably isn’t this way for everyone, or at least I speculate. I’d imagine those that have already been taking high doses of fish oil might have already done a good job of lowering membrane-bound ARA. I would say this type of user should probably run ArA alone. Otherwise, taking some fish oil might help you get more out of your next run of ArA.




Reference:

Metabolism, 2013 Mar 20. pii: S0026-0495(13)00051-6. doi: 10.1016/j.metabol.2013.02.004. [Epub ahead of print]
Fish oil supplementation alters circulating eicosanoid concentrations in young healthy men.


 

lronFist

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The fact that plasma PGF2-alpha increased is not a reflection of what is going on at the level of the myocyte. Prostaglandins are paracrine mediators and so their overall quantity is irrelevant, especially in the context of skeletal muscle hypertrophy. I agree that fish oil is causing generalized displacement of ArA leading to increased metaoblism, but this is the exact opposite of what you want occurring. You want ArA storage in the skeletal muscle membranes to allow for local metabolism and subsequent FP receptor activation.

The case remains that omega-3's compete for the same series of enzymes as omega-6's, especially in the context of this argument, and should be avoided when supplementing with ArA.
 
horizons

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The fact that plasma PGF2-alpha increased is not a reflection of what is going on at the level of the myocyte. Prostaglandins are paracrine mediators and so their overall quantity is irrelevant, especially in the context of skeletal muscle hypertrophy. I agree that fish oil is causing generalized displacement of ArA leading to increased metaoblism, but this is the exact opposite of what you want occurring. You want ArA storage in the skeletal muscle membranes to allow for local metabolism and subsequent FP receptor activation.

The case remains that omega-3's compete for the same series of enzymes as omega-6's, especially in the context of this argument, and should be avoided when supplementing with ArA.
I got told it should be taken away from the AA dose and it shouldn't matter
 

w_llewellyn

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The fact that plasma PGF2-alpha increased is not a reflection of what is going on at the level of the myocyte. Prostaglandins are paracrine mediators and so their overall quantity is irrelevant, especially in the context of skeletal muscle hypertrophy. I agree that fish oil is causing generalized displacement of ArA leading to increased metaoblism, but this is the exact opposite of what you want occurring. You want ArA storage in the skeletal muscle membranes to allow for local metabolism and subsequent FP receptor activation. The case remains that omega-3's compete for the same series of enzymes as omega-6's, especially in the context of this argument, and should be avoided when supplementing with ArA.
This is what I always thought too...

ARA-TG (diet/supp) > *ARA-PL (incorporated into muscle cell phospholipids) > *Damage > *Free-ARA released > Local-PGs > Protein Synthesis

The steps with the * were critical in my mind, as we need to get to FREE ArA from dietary ARA (triglyceride) first, which would require incorporation into the cell membrane first and its release after cellular damage (by PLA2). Seems logical. However, I don't believe it correlates with the experiences of many taking ARA pre-workout. Were cellular incorporation of ARA a necessary first step in order for it to support protein synthesis, we shouldn't see a greater response when taking ARA-TG pre-workout. Timing shouldn't matter as much. It clearly seems to work better this way, however, which suggests there is a mechanism for serum ARA-TG to be utilized for PGs as needed during training, without liberation from the cell membrane first.

Omega-3's are competitive with ARA at the enzyme level. This is true. What happens locally is what matters. Also true. However, we still cannot discount the rise in serum PGF2-a, a product of ARA, when young men take fish oil. The systemic balance does reflect what is going on in the body, to some extent. If fish oil were ONLY competitive of ARA and its products, we should see less, not more.

I've been slow to come around to this position, but I feel very strongly about it... strongly enough we're now recommending pre-workout use of ArA. This is still an open area of science, however, with PLENTY of speculation, admittedly also on my part.
 

lronFist

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This is what I always thought too...

ARA-TG (diet/supp) > *ARA-PL (incorporated into muscle cell phospholipids) > *Damage > *Free-ARA released > Local-PGs > Protein Synthesis

The steps with the * were critical in my mind, as we need to get to FREE ArA from dietary ARA (triglyceride) first, which would require incorporation into the cell membrane first and its release after cellular damage (by PLA2). Seems logical. However, I don't believe it correlates with the experiences of many taking ARA pre-workout. Were cellular incorporation of ARA a necessary first step in order for it to support protein synthesis, we shouldn't see a greater response when taking ARA-TG pre-workout. Timing shouldn't matter as much. It clearly seems to work better this way, however, which suggests there is a mechanism for serum ARA-TG to be utilized for PGs as needed during training, without liberation from the cell membrane first.

Omega-3's are competitive with ARA at the enzyme level. This is true. What happens locally is what matters. Also true. However, we still cannot discount the rise in serum PGF2-a, a product of ARA, when young men take fish oil. The systemic balance does reflect what is going on in the body, to some extent. If fish oil were ONLY competitive of ARA and its products, we should see less, not more.

I've been slow to come around to this position, but I feel very strongly about it... strongly enough we're now recommending pre-workout use of ArA. This is still an open area of science, however, with PLENTY of speculation, admittedly also on my part.
I think ArA pre-workout is great for 2 reasons. One is that the plasma becomes relatively saturated with ArA which pushes the metabolic pathways towards vasodilation. The second reason is that skeletal muscle LPL becomes active during exercise (or fasting), and so ArA is allowed to selectively accumulate there and exert the paracrine effect desired (PGF2-alpha --> FP receptor --> myotrophy).

Interesting discussion. ArA FTW.
 

criticalbench

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Good information, i plan on trying it both ways as I have xgels and xfa.

Mike
 

mr.cooper69

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Were cellular incorporation of ARA a necessary first step in order for it to support protein synthesis, we shouldn't see a greater response when taking ARA-TG pre-workout. Timing shouldn't matter as much. It clearly seems to work better this way, however, which suggests there is a mechanism for serum ARA-TG to be utilized for PGs as needed during training, without liberation from the cell membrane first.
The primary purpose for taking it preworkout or during a fasted state is because this is when skeletal muscle LPL predominates over adipose LPL. A heightened effect may simply be secondary to improved skeletal muscle delivery from previous administrations.
 

mr.cooper69

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Nvm, I see neuron beat me to it. And as he also said, the ergogenic effect (particularly that observed in the Baylor study) may be secondary to increased ArA in the plasma, which primarily results in formation of vasodilating metabolites, as seen in the model of wound repair.
 

Younglifter16

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lotta people with alotta knowledge on AA in this thread.Got a question for you bro's, I know very little on the reactions as you folks do and was wondering who can shed some thoughts on this. With pgd2 recently coming out as a crucial factor for those with male pattern baldness, can AA speed up the process or increase the rate of MPB through an increase in PGD2? I may even be 100% wrong, but curious if you guys can drop some knowledge. Anecdotally speaking, I never heard anyone report hair shedding as a side effect, but what does science say?
 

w_llewellyn

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Nvm, I see neuron beat me to it. And as he also said, the ergogenic effect (particularly that observed in the Baylor study) may be secondary to increased ArA in the plasma, which primarily results in formation of vasodilating metabolites, as seen in the model of wound repair.
A colleague told me he also remembers reading a tracer-label study that found eicosanoids were more actively formed from serum FA than membrane-bound sources. I have been having a hard time locating it, however.

Yeah, this is definitely some really interesting stuff. I'm sure there is much more to learn about optimizing ArA, and I am certainly looking forward to continued work in this area. Incredibly great to see others getting involved too !
 

w_llewellyn

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Actually, I shouldn't have written "getting involved". Neuron's posts have caused a great many people to take an interest in Arachidonic Acid over the years. He's quite possibly been a more effective ambassador of this EFA than I have been.

So if that's you, Thank You Neuron. Your posts gave me hope during dark times...!
 

w_llewellyn

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lotta people with alotta knowledge on AA in this thread.Got a question for you bro's, I know very little on the reactions as you folks do and was wondering who can shed some thoughts on this. With pgd2 recently coming out as a crucial factor for those with male pattern baldness, can AA speed up the process or increase the rate of MPB through an increase in PGD2? I may even be 100% wrong, but curious if you guys can drop some knowledge. Anecdotally speaking, I never heard anyone report hair shedding as a side effect, but what does science say?
Science is still confounded about MPB; probably because there are many factors involved. One of them may be the expression of PGD2 as you note (I'm no expert though). However, I suspect it may have more to do with how your body forms PGD2 locally in the scalp when you are predisposed to hair loss. Unsure, though.

I agree, after more than 10 years of working with ArA I've never heard of such complaint. I don't believe if PGs are involved, it is at a level where simple dietary changes trigger or put into remission alopecia.
 
TheMovement

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Love doing research lol
 
SwolenONE

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Good information, i plan on trying it both ways as I have xgels and xfa.

Mike
Very excited to hear your thoughts on ArA vs ArA w a low dose of fish oil.

Bill believes there is a synergy between the two. Where as his initial research didnt have him thinking this, the longer he researched ArA he changed his position entirely and created X-Factor Advanced.
 

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