PWO Vasoconstrictors Worth It?
- 04-30-2013, 08:25 AM
Most pre workout supplements are vasoconstrictors which are counterproductive to building muscle.
I used pre workout supps for years, often switching every 6-12 months as they'd seem to lose their edge. But I started to wonder if the extra energy was worth it.
About a year ago I quit and a month or so later I adjusted. Workouts have improved, natural pumps are back (actually better) and my gains have improved.
Never again will I go back to limiting my muscle building with vasoconstrictors.
Of course if building muscle is not of interest or priority, and cutting is, by all means, constrict away.
- 04-30-2013, 08:32 AM
you can cut or bulk with a vasodialating pre workout product i.e, , , (non-DMAA) just to name a few.
caffiene is great at 10mg per/kg BW or a nitrate enriched pre workout like enhanced.
Your short changing yourself man...enhanced and / will KNOCK YA SOCKS OFF...::: Olympus Labs :::...Crossfit - DEMIGOD -
- 04-30-2013, 08:48 AM
I have a half used tub of Alphamine at the house - about a year old.
I'm not familiar with the other supps you mentioned, but your right in that there are in fact some vasolidating supplements that could be used.
But it seems that most guys are using vasoconstrictors which physically interfere with building muscle.
04-30-2013, 08:56 AM
It also appears that many of these supps mix vasolodators with vasoconstrictors which may look good for marketing purposes but is somewhat counterproductive in nature.
04-30-2013, 09:18 AM
I think there is a good possibility that you're confused.
Caffeine for instance is generally thought of as vasoconstricting however, in a workout setting it is not
04-30-2013, 09:31 AM
04-30-2013, 10:01 AM
I understand caffeine is a constrictor. Although I don't think moderate amounts (cup of coffee in the morning, iced tea for lunch, etc) throughout the day are an issue.Originally Posted by Valdez
04-30-2013, 10:09 AM
A short explanation would be that in attempting to reach hypertrophy - your in part attempting to increase blood/nutrient flow and pressure to targeted muscle group(s). Constrictors limit the capacity of that process.Originally Posted by Rodja
Wiki - Muscle hypertrophy involves an increase in size of skeletal muscle through an increase in the size of its component cells
Wiki - vasoconstriction is the narrowing of the blood vessels resulting from contraction of the muscular wall of the vessels, particularly the large arteries and small arterioles.
04-30-2013, 10:14 AM
So What components specifically are constrIctive? The caffeine? And does this mean your basically saying that a caffeine free pre workout would be more beneficial?
04-30-2013, 10:19 AM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
04-30-2013, 11:00 AM
I wasn't sure if he was going to take the bait.....
And then he did lol
04-30-2013, 11:18 AM
But I'm not necessarily targeting caffeine as there is a laundry list of stims that people are using for pre workout.
I recently had a conversation (part of what prompted this post) with a friend of mine who is a bodybuilder and also part owner of a supplement company. It was evident and well known to him for years that vasoconstrictors and muscle building can be somewhat counter to each other. Understand that neither of us is saying that one makes the other impossible. But, pre workout products with stimulants are their largest sellers and actually carry the business.
Another friend with us in the conversation was/is a competitive power lifter who also sees the issue. However, he's used pre workout stimulants for so long that he really doesn't feel like he can complete an intense workout without them. His view is not uncommon. I've talked with others who feel that their increase in energy allows them to do more good in the gym, thus overshadowing any limiting affect the constrictors may pose.
I disagree, but value his opinion also.
04-30-2013, 11:40 AM
preworkouts also has vasodialators in them as well to counteract that effect. and you have to remember, some stms are site dependant on vasoconstriction. yohimbe for example is a vasodialator in the pelvic region so you dont end up with stim dick like 1,3d does
think, how many preworkotus contain agmatine, cit malate, or nitrates in them nowdays? pretty much all of them. then theres the ones that are still holding onto arginine...
04-30-2013, 11:47 AM
Also, my sole focus was not on the 'pump', rather the muscle building process. Blood and nutrient flow is important during a workout and each and every single day after - through the entire hypertrophic process.
However, I may be missing something. Please explain to me how a vasoconstrictor improves the muscle building process. Because the point of this thread is to hear/read these views.
I may not be right, but what I've shared is right for me. I've weight trained since I was 15 (34 now). I cycled through my 20's and 30's. I also spent years on pre workout stimulants. Hell, I grew up on the old Speed Stack style ephedrine drinks. More recently I've tried products like Jacked, C4 Extreme, Aphamine, etc. I only mentioned this to say that I've worked out under a variety of conditions. But various friends over the years have shared there views on vasoconstriction with me which eventually started to make sense. My biggest barrier was overcoming my bias in the matter due to my reliance of pre workout supplements.
As I mentioned earlier, since I've changed my pre workout regimen, I feel that the muscle building process has improved. My intake before and during workouts now may consist bcaa's, carbs, creatine, protein, ribose, etc.
04-30-2013, 11:50 AM
OnionKnight - "preworkouts also has vasodialators in them as well to counteract that effect."
I agree, and that's part of my point. They use two ingredients to counteract each other. I would rather have one effect or the other depending on my goals.
04-30-2013, 12:29 PM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
04-30-2013, 12:58 PM
04-30-2013, 01:08 PM
Rodja - "vastly overestimating how much actual construction occurs from stims. They don't choke off bloodflow"
I simply said that while constrictors don't make muscle building impossible, they do run counter.
I agree that for some people the stim's effects can outweigh the decrease in bloodflow. Especially those who have trouble maintaining intensity in the gym.
But building muscled doesn't come easy or happen overnight. It's something that many of us obsess over and consume ourselves with. Sometimes, every little thing counts or adds up. We are intensely focused on many things throughout our schedule, diet and workout. Intensity in the gym and bloodflow are both important. Many of us notice if something has slightly impacted our strength, intensity, stamina, bloodflow, fullness, recovery, etc. We then try to identify, focus on and exploit these advantages or disadvantages.
For me personally, I don't have trouble completing my workouts (at least not now - I did in the past) with intensity. Therefore, I might focus on other things including the flow of nutrients and oxygen to the muscles.
In my opinion, this is similar to the Clen or T3 debates. Does Clen and T3 help assist in cutting fat? Yes. Can they be counterproductive to building muscle? Yes. Can someone use Clen or T3 and still build muscle? Yes. Both are worthwhile to discuss.
Majoring in the Minors
04-30-2013, 01:12 PM
^^^ dude u know youre debating protein synthesis with one of the biggest, strongest, and most knowledgable dudes on this forum?
04-30-2013, 01:25 PM
I have respect for Rodja and many others here at Anabolic Minds. I also read and pay attention to many of his posts.
But having a low post count doesn't disqualify me from sharing my thoughts. Nor does it make me a noob.
It is also not my intention to personally challenge or debate anyone. Rodja did not start this thread and then I joined in to challenge and/or discredit him.
I started this thread to share my thoughts and experiences and to also get some other points of view - which is happening.
04-30-2013, 01:39 PM
04-30-2013, 01:52 PM
Ok so bottom line are you saying that stimulants have vasoconstriction properties and that is counter productive to the vasodilation effects of a PWO? Which has an effect on nutrient delivery ? Is that what you're saying? I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you are saying so I can share my 2 cents.
04-30-2013, 01:53 PM
There are a myriad of factors that are going to have greater influence on hypertrophy (e.g. progression, frequency, volume, etc.) and how much increased bloodflow that results from a training session is not one of primary ones. Simply feeling that you've improved the environment doesn't provide anything that can be tested and/or replicated and it also sounds as though you've added substrate to your sessions, which provide a different response that is not an appropriate comparison compared to pre-training supplements.
M.Ed. Ex Phys
04-30-2013, 02:07 PM
04-30-2013, 02:10 PM
I won't weigh in on clen and ephedrine. Individuals can study them on their own and make their own determination.
04-30-2013, 02:18 PM
04-30-2013, 03:29 PM
Rodja - We're going back and forth, but I'm not sure we're actually going anywhere.
"This is nothing like a clen/T3 debate"
I think it's similar in the sense that no person takes a substance that might be catabolic unless it has positive effects that might outweigh the negatives. Similarly, no person would take a constrictor for the purpose of building muscle if it also did not possess positive effects like energy that might outweigh the constriction.
"Hell, you contradicted yourself by pointing out that your pumps are back and then said you're not focused on that aspect."
Pumps are not the goal - building muscle is. However pumps can be part of the process. I mentioned pumps in conjunction with a few other things. - most notably that my gains had improved.
"If it wasn't a focus, then why point it out?"
Because many people turn to pre workout stims for energy and pumps. So I thought it was noteworthy to mention that since discontinuing pre workout supplements containing vasoconstrictors, I've regained my energy and natural pumps. I've also notice that my muscles are fuller, strength gains have improved along with measurements. So once again, pumps are only a part of the equation.
"You're swaying in this thread ....Simply feeling that you've improved the environment doesn't provide anything that can be tested"
If it appears that I'm swaying, I apologize. I must not be communicating/typing clearly. My thoughts and reasoning on this subject have remained constant. I believe vasoconstrictors (which may be a broad term because there are varying degrees and dosages) can hinder muscle growth because of the physical nature of their action. I also came to this belief through the information of numerous people who I consider credible on the subject. Not because I quit using them and experienced positive results. Now to be clear, discontinuing use and seeing positive results has further solidified my opinion on the subject.
But I also realize that no two people are the same. I'm not going to come on here and tell everyone to use my cycle, my diet, my pre workout routine, my workout, etc. What works for me has worked for many and will probably work for some more. But it wont work for everyone.
04-30-2013, 04:46 PM
My head hurts. OP, I fear you have no idea what you're talking about!
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
04-30-2013, 04:46 PM
04-30-2013, 04:47 PM
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