Hey guys... just finished of a bottle of AXand im about to hope onto their product.
Just did a few searches on 7-methoxyflavone (which is in both products) and i came across this post from another forum.
Does anyone have an opinion on this? Also...before i make myself look like a knob, they are talking about 7-methoxyflavone aren't they?
or are 7-methoxyflavone and 7-methoxyisoflavone totally different?
"Sorry, I should have posted this with my original comments...
I know I'm going to get a lot of hot water for badmouthing this one. But fact remains this is the shadiest stuff on the market. The most recent tests I found were dated 1981, and all of them conducted under suspect circumstances in the country of , Hungary. All of the information on Methoxy isoflavone and Ipriflavone , the two most common forms of methoxy, is based on US patent information dating back to 1977. Even with the patent locked up, there should have been evidence of use in the sports world throughout the past 24 years. After all, they claim this stuff is better than steroids. I've heard some pretty bold remarks by companies claiming their supplements are almost as good as steroids and not be able to uphold it, but this is ludicrous. I don't think anyone could really fall for something better than steroids but with no side-effects. What really worries me is that I haven't heard even a single testimonial from someone who gained a pound of lean mass that couldn't be accredited to something else. I mean, even with the worst supplements you always hear someone that experiences some minor gains, but not a one with methoxy. The body protects itself against exogenous substances, which is why steroids are so popular, because they trick the body into thinking they're endogenous substances. But with flavonoids, they would be broken down before exerting these effects. If any of these test-results are for real, I guarantee you the stuff was injected.
And is it common in this industry to go by test material supplied by the manufacturing company (Chinoin), tests done in-house and with a world of flaws in them ? In the medical community people laugh at practices like these, but praying on the believing nature of intermediate bodybuilders they just smell money. When Twinlabs or Universal comes out with a methoxy supplement, I may just decide to give methoxy the benefit of doubt, but as long as the major, quality companies shy away from it, It remains hard to accept the supplement as a steady factor. Which is why it is so hard to find quality Nor-diol as well...
(Update! Universal has two new Methoxy products: Natural Sterol Extreme and IsoStak. Twinlab does not yet have a Methoxy product.)
A recent attempt has been undertaken to do tests to prove methoxy worked. They showed it did. Why does this not surprise me you ask? Well, looking at the study you'll notice that the study contains a few flaws both in the way testing was performed (the gains were not shown to be conclusive, nor shown to be accredited to the product) and the test-subjects. Last time I tried to explain this to someone I was said to be prejudiced. But if you look at the top of the study you'll also notice that the study was sponsored (and we're not talking peanuts so I think some of that money may compromise the integrity of the researcher) by one of the companies that manufactures methoxy and has a great stake in that market. I'm not going to name the company, but if you go back through some of the message boards of the past few weeks and months you can find it.
As far as I'm concerned, buying methoxy is wasted money. I wrote to some people in the industry who have their ears to the grapevine where new supplements are concerned. All of them agreed that there is no basis for the power of methoxy, and I believe Will Brink gave me the best answer "There is no proof this stuff works, and for me that's all I need to know."
3'-prenyl-4'-methoxy-isoflavone-7-O-beta-D-(2''-O-p-coumaroyl) glucopyranoside, a novel phytoestrogen from Sopubia delphinifolia.
Saxena VK, Bhadoria BK.
Department of Chemistry, Dr. H.S. Gour University, Sagar, Madhya Pradesh, India.
A novel phytoestrogen compound, 3'-prenyl-4'-methoxy-isoflavone-7-O- beta-D-(2''-O-p-coumaroyl)glucopyranoside, has been isolated from the EtOAc-soluble fraction of the stems of Sopubia delphinifolia and has been identified by chemical and spectral analysis. Pharmacological examination of the compound showed it to have estrogenic activity.
Methoxyisoflavone: The Truth
by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS
AST Director of Research
reatine was probably the best and worst thing to happen to the sports supplement industry.
Several hundred studies now validate creatine's remarkable muscle building, performance enhancing abilities in a variety of sports. Extensive research shows creatine to be safe, side effect-free and, best of all, economical to use. To some extent, the Holy Grail had been found. Creatine single handedly bolstered the credibility of an industry filled with unscrupulous companies.
Now creatine's success has caused a gold-rush among sports supplement companies. They are all eager to cash in on the restored faith of the consumer and discover the next creatine. Creatine was the perfect example of how science and the supplement industry could work together. And while I suspect there will never be another creatine, this has not stopped many supplement companies desperately attempting to find something better. One of the recent, and perhaps most fraudulent, examples is methoxyisoflavone (5-methyl-7-methoxy-isoflavone). This isoflavone has been marketed as a "powerful anabolic", a "scientifically-proven lean mass stimulator" and an "alternative to anabolic steroids".
What are isoflavones?
Isoflavones are compounds found in soy beans or soy-containing foods. They are naturally occurring, non-steroidal phytoestrogens that bind to estrogen receptors and possess weak estrogenic properties. Some of the research that is sited in the marketing of "anabolic" isoflavones shows that compounds such as ipriflavone may hold promise in the treatment of osteoporosis, and soy isoflavone extracts to treat estrogen-deficient conditions, but this research has nothing to do with building muscle.[2-4]
So, exactly what is the scientific literature behind methoxyisoflavone, ipriflavone and the other "highly anabolic" isoflavones? None. I have performed numerous literature scans on these compounds and can find absolutely nothing to do with building muscle, in fish, birds, chickens or any other animal.
What's in a patent?
According to many of the companies that market methoxyisoflavone, this "mysterious" compound remained "buried" in the US Patent Office until 1997 when the rights expired. Some researchers in Hungary filed patents on these compounds over 30-years ago.[5,6] They believed these isoflavone compounds possessed non-estrogenic properties. The patents contain some descriptions of animal research and recommendations of how these compounds may be of use to humans. However, that is about it. That is all the evidence there is to support the amazing anabolic properties of methoxyisoflavone and its related compounds!
Some supplement marketers will attempt to impress you in their advertising with the sighting of patent numbers claiming that the US Patent Office would not award a patent to something that was not effective. This is simply not true. Patent officials do not judge the validity of the information presented to support the patent. A patent is not, in any way, a certification of the effectiveness of a product. A patent is not a verification of the science behind a product. A patent is merely a copyright, concerned only with the novelty of product.
To successfully complete controlled research involving human subjects consuming sports supplements is a formidable undertaking and the costs are substantial. Funding this type of research at an independent academic facility is something that most supplement companies are not interested in. So when the first ever study involving humans supplementing with methoxyisoflavone was presented at the 2001 American College of Sports Medicine annual conference,  I was very interested.
The study examined 14-college men supplementing with methoxyisoflavone during resistance training. However, the research was poorly controlled and yielded insignificant results. The training program and dietary intake were not carefully monitored and the control group showed an increase in body fat, which suggests that many of the subjects did not comply with the procedures required of them during the eight-week period. Disappointingly, no conclusions can be drawn from this kind of research.
There is a lot of hype surrounding methoxy supplements, but there is one thing missing - the science. At this point I would have to say there is absolutely no research at all showing methoxy isoflavone helps build muscle. My personal suspicion is that as an anabolic agent, this supplement's value is non-existent.
You have to understand this industry to understand why products like methoxy isoflavone ever make it to the market. You see, most companies' philosophy is to continually offer the consumer something new. And there is nothing wrong with this, providing the "new" product has science to support its use as an effective nutritional supplement. Methoxyisoflavone does not. Methoxy isoflavone is a perfect example of a supplement that is completely backed by marketing and not by science.
1. Messina M, Messina V. Soyfoods, soybean isoflavones, and bone health: a brief overview. J.Ren Nutr. 10:63-8, 2000.
2. Scheiber MD, Rebar RW. Isoflavones and post menopausal bone health: a viable alternative to estrogen therapy? Menopause. 6:233-41,1999.
3. Carusi D. Pytoestrogens as hormone replacement therapy: an evidence-based approach. Prim Care Update Observ Gyn. 7:253-259, 2000.
4. Ohta H. et al., Effects of 1-year of ipriflavone treatment on lumbar bone mineral and bone metabolic markers in postmenopausal women with low bone mass. Horm Res. 51:178-83, 1999.
5. US Patent 3949085: Anabolic-weight-gain promoting compositions containing isoflavone deriviatives and method using the same.
6. US Patent 4163746: Metabolic5-methyl-isoflavone-derivatives, process for preparation thereof and compositions containing the same.
7. Incledon T, Van Gammeren D, Antonio J. The effects of 5-methyl-7-methoxyisoflavone on body composition and performance in college men. Med. Sci. Sports Exercise