Fenugreek supp useful for PCT

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    Fenugreek supp useful for PCT


    I just wanted to throw out a question hoping to get more info from anyone and Dr.D in particular about the usefulness of fenugreek.

    I did a search and flipped through some books and all I seemed to come up is the traditional use of the herb was to stimulate breast milk production (yuk), diabetes, anemia. Nothing about increasing testosterone.

    A pubmed search came up with one study with rats that were given the seed extract orally (10 and 100 mg/day per 300 g body weight). That seems like alot of fenugreek to take in.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8327543

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    my wife used it to stim breast milk production. gives you a funny odor.
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    herbals


    cant really help you with your question on Fenugreek, but thought I would mention another herbal I am going to try besides the obvious Trib and Avena stuff is Sarsparilla. All my moms herbal book, some quite old, mention this as a testosterone stimulator. The extract was the latest and greatest at one point during the late 80's "Smilax Officianalis".(merely the latin name) it is cheap enough so i thought i would add it to my PCT stack.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8327543[/QUOTE]
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    I know this is one of the main ingredients in alot of the Herbal Breast ennhancement supplements on the market. My wife takes it along with Fennel and Dong Quai. These past 3 months of supplementing w/ them has added about a inch/fullness to the little guys!
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    I'm curious also. I actually bought some to try for my PCT as well after reading some of his posts (call me curious).

    Paging Dr.D??
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    Funny, was reading about this earlier today, here's some input from Dr. D.progesterone
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    http://www.herbmed.org/Herbs/Herb75....tegory22Herb75

    The link above has links to many studies about fenugreek. But no testosterone elevating studies or conclusions. I would think that if it were better than tribulus, there would be tons of links about traditional/folk use for testosterone or male health and modern scientific studies compared to trib. Instead all I see is lactation stimulation and smelling like maple syrup.

    http://www.1fast400.com/product_info...roducts_id=66&

    Its one ingredient in Syntrax fuzu so I was wondering if anyone who has taken FUZU thinks it works good.

    Edit:-
    http://ltf103.chi.us.siteprotect.com...ories_moo.html
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    I think Fenugreek also contains the Insulin potentiator 4OH-isoleucine.

    Ths may be of use pre/post workout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathead1987
    I think Fenugreek also contains the Insulin potentiator 4OH-isoleucine.

    Ths may be of use pre/post workout.
    bingo, although it's mechanism is unknown yet.
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    BN has 4hydroxyisoleucine in bulk btw...
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    BigPete is well versed in Fuzu I believe,maybe he will chime in on this!..I use fenugreek to control insulin spike during a carb load..Makes you smell like maple sryup..
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    BUMP for more info

    BTW I have taken FUZU and it is awesome for libido...best OTC product I've taken

    I'm now on PCT:
    40mg Nolva
    ZMA
    6 caps fenugreek
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    In the likelihood that people didn't notice, there is an ad here at AM linking to Kalyx.com, which surely has fenugreeek and most other herbs along with a billion other kinds of extracts.
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    I think tongkat ali would also be good for pct, it is proven to stmulate the lh and test levels
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    I used Fenugreek, Trib, DHEA and nolva for my last PCT. I really didn't notice anything unusual..except for reeking like Aunt Jemima, lol. Whenever I dropped the trib my libido would crash. I was very suppressed prior to this PCT so results may vary. I also used HCG prior to PCT. RESPECT find out what it means to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emiliozapata
    ...Sarsparilla. All my moms herbal book, some quite old, mention this as a testosterone stimulator. The extract was the latest and greatest at one point during the late 80's "Smilax Officianalis".(merely the latin name) it is cheap enough so i thought i would add it to my PCT stack.
    ]
    It contains Sarsasapogenin, it's 5-apha reduced, that's the only difference from Diosgenin, which is the 5-ene in Fenugreek. The PCT value is probably about equal, as much of diosgenin is metabolized to the reduced form anyway, if that's even what's doing the work here. I'm still not sure why it works so well. I never tried Smilax extract in the 80. But I used to love Rocket Fuel!
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    Dr.D the active compound in fenugreek is diosgenin which is chemically similar to DHEA. So I suppose its use during PCT is about on par with tribulus or longjack.

    It will probably improve libido symptoms but will not actively improve the steroids users impaired testosterone production.

    If doses are high enough, would it be possible for trib/longjack/fenugreek to have a suppressing effect on HPTA however slight??
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusG
    Dr.D the active compound in fenugreek is diosgenin which is chemically similar to DHEA. So I suppose its use during PCT is about on par with tribulus or longjack.

    It will probably improve libido symptoms but will not actively improve the steroids users impaired testosterone production.

    If doses are high enough, would it be possible for trib/longjack/fenugreek to have a suppressing effect on HPTA however slight??
    I don't think so, but it depends on the mechanism. Sure, the sap's convert to DHEA in vivo, but if that was all that it contributed, it should be detrimental to PCT in the long run, but in my experience, it isn't. So I really suspect that it does increase LH levels by some hypothalamic or SHBG mechanism, or maybe it has an indirect benefit through adrenal steroid metabolism, I'll do some studying and let you know. I just know it causes symptoms of increased test production(gonadal hypertrophy, increased libido, etc...)

    Longjack is suppose to increase LH levels, and a lot of studies show this, but it is a sloppy, unspecific pituitary stimulant appaerently, because at 300mg/d (of the LG100 high potency extract) doses, I got a good case of gyno more than could be explained by an increased test level it seemed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    I don't think so, but it depends on the mechanism. Sure, the sap's convert to DHEA in vivo, but if that was all that it contributed, it should be detrimental to PCT in the long run, but in my experience, it isn't. So I really suspect that it does increase LH levels by some hypothalamic or SHBG mechanism, or maybe it has an indirect benefit through adrenal steroid metabolism, I'll do some studying and let you know. I just know it causes symptoms of increased test production(gonadal hypertrophy, increased libido, etc...)

    Longjack is suppose to increase LH levels, and a lot of studies show this, but it is a sloppy, unspecific pituitary stimulant appaerently, because at 300mg/d (of the LG100 high potency extract) doses, I got a good case of gyno more than could be explained by an increased test level it seemed.
    Do you have any links to studies on Longjack? All the interesting ones I've seen on pubmed only measure sexual activities of mice except for one ani-levator study. No studies on testosterone/LH levels. Also how does Fenugreek measure up to longjack?

    I'm interested to know if the herbal route could work since the oft touted tribulus is quite useless as a pct anciliary.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3793
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusG
    Do you have any links to studies on Longjack? All the interesting ones I've seen on pubmed only measure sexual activities of mice except for one ani-levator study. No studies on testosterone/LH levels. Also how does Fenugreek measure up to longjack?

    I'm interested to know if the herbal route could work since the oft touted tribulus is quite useless as a pct anciliary.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3793
    This is the site I got mine, it has a lot of good scientific summaries too:

    http://www.herbal-powers.com/tongkat...ource=overture
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    This is the site I got mine, it has a lot of good scientific summaries too:

    http://www.herbal-powers.com/tongkat...ource=overture

    Thanks, I've not seen the studies before.

    It looks very interesting and at this point I consider Tongkat Ali to be better for PCT than fenugreek which doesn't seem to have any credentials in the way of scientific studies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusG
    Thanks, I've not seen the studies before.

    It looks very interesting and at this point I consider Tongkat Ali to be better for PCT than fenugreek which doesn't seem to have any credentials in the way of scientific studies.
    Yeah, I know your right, but it's just the opposite in my experience. I got gyno fast from that L.J.100, and never got a rebound at any dose at all, but the Fenugreek is cheap, friendly and effective. Try both if you must know for yourself. I usually like to see for myself as well, so I understand. Just think you'll be disappointed in the LongJak.
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    LJ100, is that a 100:1 extract of longjack? I've used 1fast400's longjack which is 100:1 and never experienced gyno. Heh, or maybe I just need to do some cutting down to reveal it. ****, I hope not.

    As for fenugreek, I knew there was something up with that stuff. I stopped using it cause I think I read something bad about side effects pertaining to high dosage. Maybe I'll go back though.

    You rule Dr D!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    As for fenugreek, I knew there was something up with that stuff. I stopped using it cause I think I read something bad about side effects pertaining to high dosage.
    Such as?
    I experienced nothing...
    Not much appetite stimulation either, but i was under a bad flu. I'll try it again when i'm healthy and i hope to get some app stim effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    As for fenugreek, I knew there was something up with that stuff. I stopped using it cause I think I read something bad about side effects pertaining to high dosage. Maybe I'll go back though.
    Yeah, give it another try bro. I've never had sides with it even on 6 or 8 pills a day (which is overkill in most cases) except for smelling like the pancake man at IHOP. It's not really a bad smell, just very distinct, mapley sweet actually.
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    The smell is one of the reasons I was using it. I love smelling like maple. Chicks wanna put me on their waffles and lick me up... uhhh
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    So how much fenugreek per day is the suggested dose to add in for pct ??
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    I'll start with 2, 650mg pills/night and work up to 6 or 8 over about 4 weeks. That's seems to work well for me. Take it all at once and NOT with food or hormones.
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    D, why not with food and why only all at once at night??
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    If your goal is to lower cholesterol assimilation, then take 2 caps, 3x/d with each main meal. It also lowers PH/AS absorption so it must be staggered if your on any oral hormones. For PCT purposes, one dose at night seems to work best. Plus I'm usually taking DHEA, Preg, 7-OH, or something like that daily so it's convenient at night too. I practice the same method with SERMs. One dose all at night, and it peaks early morning with your natural test surge. The dose of Fen must be steadily increased and finally becomes somewhat ineffective at about a month, as the body starts to develope a tolerance at about 2 wks. Then break a few weeks, and you can start all over.
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    I'm confused, are people using Fenugreek or Fenugreek Seed for PCT?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    I'm confused, are people using Fenugreek or Fenugreek Seed for PCT?
    The whole, powdered seed is the common form. When people say fenugreek, they probably mean the seed.
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    Gotcha, thanks for the clarification Dr. D
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    Diosgenin, extracted from the root of Wild Yam (Dioscorea villosa), has been reported to demonstrate tremendous opportunity for medical application. Vascular endothelial growth factor-A (VEGF-A) plays an important role in bone-related angiogenesis, a critical process occurring during bone formation and fracture healing. Here we examine whether diosgenin is able to induce VEGF-A expression as well as to promote angiogenesis in osteoblasts. For murine MC3T3-E1 preosteoblast-like cells, VEGF-A mRNA and protein expression appeared to be significantly elevated in response to diosgenin in a concentration-dependent fashion. Conditioned media prepared from cells treated with diosgenin induced strong angiogenic activity in either in vitro or ex vivo angiogenesis assay. Furthermore, diosgenin treatment increased the stability and activity of HIF-1{alpha} protein. Inhibition of HIF-1{alpha} activity by transfection with DN-HIF-1{alpha} significantly diminished diosgenin-mediated VEGF-A up-regulation. The use of pharmacological inhibitors or genetic inhibition revealed that both the PI3K/Akt and p38 signalling pathways were potentially required for diosgenin-induced HIF-1 activation and subsequent VEGF-A up-regulation. Of interest, estrogen receptor binding assay revealed that diosgenin has the strong ability to replace [3H]-estradiol bind to estrogen receptor (IC(50):10 nM). In addition, the specific estrogen receptor antagonists ICI 182,780 and tamoxifen were noted to be able to strongly inhibit the diosgenin-induced src kinase-dependent Akt and p38 MAPK activation. Taken together, such results provide evidence that diosgenin up-regulates VEGF-A and promotes angiogenesis in preosteoblast-like cells by a HIF-1{alpha}-dependent mechanism involving the activation of src kinase, p38 MAPK and Akt signalling pathways via estrogen receptor.
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    pu12en12g!

    I was unaware of the angiogenic effects. That is very interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    pu12en12g!

    I was unaware of the angiogenic effects. That is very interesting.
    Dr.D, I made a thread with your name on it. Please look a few threads below this one..
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    OK
  

  
 

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