Let's try to explain some phenomena

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    Lightbulb Let's try to explain some phenomena


    I thought it would be cool to stimulate discussion about everyday supplement phenomena that we kind of just "accept" without looking too deeply into them.

    For instance,

    How come I can consume a caffeine tab under what are perceptibly identical conditions and have a different response to each tab?

    or

    Why do I get the BA tingles some times, but not other times, even if taken fasted both times?

    But I'll start. The one that's on my mind is due to the fact that I'm pulling an all-nighter with two scoops of Craze (original batch if it means anything) and my interest was piqued by my extreme fluid consumption. I brought a 1 L bottle with me and have now filled it up and consumed it 3 times, and it's only been 1.5 hours since taking Craze. It seems every time I take Craze, I get some insatiable thirst.

    So question #1: What is it in Craze that causes polydipsia?

    My gut tells me this can't be physiological (osmolarity shifts across cell membranes) but rather neurological. The hypothalamus mediates thirst, and it's well-known that anti-cholinergics can cause excessive thirst. This would be in line with PA's postulation a while back that dendramine is an anti-cholinergic. AND it would also explain the blurry vision that users, including myself, notice as well (cycloplegia). What are your thoughts? Depending on the mechanism of anti-cholinergic activity, would co-administration of Focus XT be advisable to reduce these side effects? Anecdotally, the answer is yes (solo ALCAR seems to aid the vision issue too). But I want your thoughts!

    And more importantly, does anyone else have curious phenomena they'd like to share and mentally masturbate about?
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    Dare I go here.

    Why does new batch Craze seem less effective then old batch Craze...

    Curious phenomena?

    I'm kidding let not spark up another craze conspiracy thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I thought it would be cool to stimulate discussion about everyday supplement phenomena that we kind of just "accept" without looking too deeply into them.

    For instance,

    How come I can consume a caffeine tab under what are perceptibly identical conditions and have a different response to each tab?

    or

    Why do I get the BA tingles some times, but not other times, even if taken fasted both times?

    But I'll start. The one that's on my mind is due to the fact that I'm pulling an all-nighter with two scoops of Craze (original batch if it means anything) and my interest was piqued by my extreme fluid consumption. I brought a 1 L bottle with me and have now filled it up and consumed it 3 times, and it's only been 1.5 hours since taking Craze. It seems every time I take Craze, I get some insatiable thirst.

    So question #1: What is it in Craze that causes polydipsia?

    My gut tells me this can't be physiological (osmolarity shifts across cell membranes) but rather neurological. The hypothalamus mediates thirst, and it's well-known that anti-cholinergics can cause excessive thirst. This would be in line with PA's postulation a while back that dendramine is an anti-cholinergic. AND it would also explain the blurry vision that users, including myself, notice as well (cycloplegia). What are your thoughts? Depending on the mechanism of anti-cholinergic activity, would co-administration of Focus XT be advisable to reduce these side effects? Anecdotally, the answer is yes (solo ALCAR seems to aid the vision issue too). But I want your thoughts!

    And more importantly, does anyone else have curious phenomena they'd like to share and mentally masturbate about?
    Without turning this into another Craze thread, perhaps sending a sample off to a lab to get it analysed for dendamine would be advisable. On a side note, i hope that you're increasing sodium intake with the extra fluids. Especially with 3L in your system in a 1.5hr period (and I assume that your not dissapating heat through exercise so no sweat loss is occuring?). I wouldnt even drink this much unless doing long-duration, high intensity work in the heat . Hyponaetremia can on rare occasions be life-threatening as the body's serum sodium level is diluted to an extent that seizures and cardiac arrest can occur (kidneys cant handle the volume of water etc.)

    Back to your issue, perhaps an intake of Zinc would help combat the polydipsia as it helps the body to absorb water and retain sodium? Might help control the excessive thrist unless it is a hypothalamus issue and the body simply cannot register that fluid levels are fine.

    On another note, caffeine (which promotes acetylcholine activty might counteract the anti-cholinergic (which reduces acetylcholine activity) and it may just be a case on when to dose caffiene to counteract the anti-cholinergic.
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    I definitely don't want this thread to be about Craze, that's just the supplement I happen to have ingested tonight.

    I'm aware of hyponatremia but 3L in 1.5 hours won't get me close to there unless I had a pre-existing condition.

    Zinc would indeed help, but I'm not really worried about the thirst. This happens every time. I'm more curious as to the cause of the phenomenon. Agreed on the caffeine.

    I now wonder how galantamine would interact with Craze...hmmmm
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    Interested in more discussion here. Craze definitely makes me thirsty as well.

    Always wondered about the tingles with BA some days/products but not others.

    No I don't really have anything to add at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    I thought it would be cool to stimulate discussion about everyday supplement phenomena that we kind of just "accept" without looking too deeply into them.

    For instance,

    How come I can consume a caffeine tab under what are perceptibly identical conditions and have a different response to each tab?

    or

    Why do I get the BA tingles some times, but not other times, even if taken fasted both times?

    But I'll start. The one that's on my mind is due to the fact that I'm pulling an all-nighter with two scoops of Craze (original batch if it means anything) and my interest was piqued by my extreme fluid consumption. I brought a 1 L bottle with me and have now filled it up and consumed it 3 times, and it's only been 1.5 hours since taking Craze. It seems every time I take Craze, I get some insatiable thirst.

    So question #1: What is it in Craze that causes polydipsia?

    My gut tells me this can't be physiological (osmolarity shifts across cell membranes) but rather neurological. The hypothalamus mediates thirst, and it's well-known that anti-cholinergics can cause excessive thirst. This would be in line with PA's postulation a while back that dendramine is an anti-cholinergic. AND it would also explain the blurry vision that users, including myself, notice as well (cycloplegia). What are your thoughts? Depending on the mechanism of anti-cholinergic activity, would co-administration of Focus XT be advisable to reduce these side effects? Anecdotally, the answer is yes (solo ALCAR seems to aid the vision issue too). But I want your thoughts!

    And more importantly, does anyone else have curious phenomena they'd like to share and mentally masturbate about?
    The two bold parts I'm curious about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I definitely don't want this thread to be about Craze, that's just the supplement I happen to have ingested tonight.

    I'm aware of hyponatremia but 3L in 1.5 hours won't get me close to there unless I had a pre-existing condition.

    Zinc would indeed help, but I'm not really worried about the thirst. This happens every time. I'm more curious as to the cause of the phenomenon. Agreed on the caffeine.

    I now wonder how galantamine would interact with Craze...hmmmm
    Yeah for sure, but without knowing how much other fluid you've had before its beter to mention it that to not . Curious, have you tried the 'new' batches of craze? if so, did the excessive thirst occur then? Interesting to see, even if only anecdotally if their are differences in the two; if that is the case, then perhaps it is the added compound :speculation:

    I just suggested Zinc to help mitigate the thirst; especially if it was a problem. Wouldnt be sure what else would be the cause of the issue just from the ingredients list of craze.
    Interesting with the Galantamine + caffeine combo. Both inhibit acetylcholinesterase.. assuming there was an anti-cholingeric to begin with; even if there wasnt, when used before studying, the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase could be beneficial (perhaps enhance short term memory?).

    Just a thought, would the ability to inhibit acetylcholinesterase aid in lipolysis? then perhaps Galantamine + caffiene would be a good combo for fat loss?
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    Different times of the day, different foods eaten throughout the day, different levels of certain hormones, state of mind, amount of sleep etc. all play into how everything affects us. There are so many different variables that one wouldn't think to consider. Even if you did everything the same every single day, hormone levels would still be different and compounds would affect us differently. Also, it depends on what kind of tolerance you've developed to certain compounds: whether your body has down-regulated receptors (pharmacodynamic tolerance) or be from induction of certain enzymes (pharmacokinetic tolerance). Basically, your body wants to stay the same and wants anything put inside of us to affect us as little as possible and our bodies learn to do it more effectively over time (such as tolerance to alcohol), but different situations inside your body control how well the body can resist effects.
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    here is a phenomena. say i go to bed at 9pm. weighing 217.2. wake up the next morning. immediately get on the scale in the exact same boxers as the night before, not having had anything to drink/eat nor using the restroom any since then, and i weight 213.8. im consistently 5~ lbs gain from morning to night, then its magically lost over night. i understand why it builds up in the day. BUT WHERE DOES IT GO WHILE IM ASLEEP!

    EDIT: just checked my bed. urine all over. myth. busted.
    haha. jk. couldnt resist
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandroid828 View Post
    here is a phenomena. say i go to bed at 9pm. weighing 217.2. wake up the next morning. immediately get on the scale in the exact same boxers as the night before, not having had anything to drink/eat nor using the restroom any since then, and i weight 213.8. im consistently 5~ lbs gain from morning to night, then its magically lost over night. i understand why it builds up in the day. BUT WHERE DOES IT GO WHILE IM ASLEEP!

    EDIT: just checked my bed. urine all over. myth. busted.
    haha. jk. couldnt resist
    Water loss occurs regardless of urination (termed insensible water loss). It's also quite possible you sweat in your sleep.
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    Cool thread idea. In for more discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdiblasi View Post
    Different times of the day, different foods eaten throughout the day, different levels of certain hormones, state of mind, amount of sleep etc. all play into how everything affects us. There are so many different variables that one wouldn't think to consider. Even if you did everything the same every single day, hormone levels would still be different and compounds would affect us differently. Also, it depends on what kind of tolerance you've developed to certain compounds: whether your body has down-regulated receptors (pharmacodynamic tolerance) or be from induction of certain enzymes (pharmacokinetic tolerance). Basically, your body wants to stay the same and wants anything put inside of us to affect us as little as possible and our bodies learn to do it more effectively over time (such as tolerance to alcohol), but different situations inside your body control how well the body can resist effects.
    I think everyone is aware of this generalization. I'm looking more on a specific, physiological level
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    Here is one to talk about. I notice this happening almost daily, especially when I'm at work... and I wonder if 1) it happens to you guys and 2) why does it happen?

    I work night shift for 12 hours from 7P-7A, so I'm usually up around 1 or 2PM, will hit the gym, eat, head to work, eat again around midnight or so, and then nothing except water or perhaps a diet soda if I need some caffeine. Then usually around 4-5-6AM I get this feeling of hardening up, usually in my neck, hands, forearms, and chest... my veins bulge out like crazy mostly on my arms and I feel like I've turned into a hardened piece of steel or something... kind of the way you would feel after hammering out a bunch of light weight high volume sets after taking a pump product like agmatine (probably not the best description but hopefully it gets the point across)... and then this usually subsides by the time I'm driving home and is definitely gone before I crawl into bed.

    I've noticed this while on supplements and while taking a break from supplementation so I can't just pinpoint it to a certain substance. I'm assuming if has something to do with water intake, meal times, and the time of night, but I just don't know why it happens!

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    Wow, great call! I get this whenever I stay up really late/don't sleep at night. Vascularity also gets insane (even moreso than when I'm lifting!). I honestly don't have an answer but am going to look into this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I thought it would be cool to stimulate discussion about everyday supplement phenomena that we kind of just "accept" without looking too deeply into them.

    For instance,

    Why do I get the BA tingles some times, but not other times, even if taken fasted both times?
    I have never felt the BA tingles
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    What about being sore after some work outs, but then again not being sore too often?
    Could it be lack of sleeping/eating/training?

    What are you thoughts on being sore? Some people believe the work out was successful some say the pain is not a good indicator of a "good" work out.

    I personally look for the pain & pump during my training sessions, good idea or not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    What about being sore after some work outs, but then again not being sore too often?
    Could it be lack of sleeping/eating/training?

    What are you thoughts on being sore? Some people believe the work out was successful some say the pain is not a good indicator of a "good" work out.

    I personally look for the pain & pump during my training sessions, good idea or not?
    Training intensity variations, adaptation to training regimen/volume, etc.

    DOMS is not a good indicator of a successful workout...at all. I could stop training for 3 weeks then go and do 3 sets of squats, head home, and have DOMS for the next 5 days.

    Looking for pain/pump during a training session is a very poor approach IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    Training intensity variations, adaptation to training regimen/volume, etc.

    DOMS is not a good indicator of a successful workout...at all. I could stop training for 3 weeks then go and do 3 sets of squats, head home, and have DOMS for the next 5 days.

    Looking for pain/pump during a training session is a very poor approach IMO.
    What should 1 be looking for? & why wouldn't DOMs matter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1

    What should 1 be looking for? & why wouldn't DOMs matter?
    I would like to see this answered too. I beleive doms doesnt matter because while it can be an indicator of a good workout and muscle microtears, it can also be brought on by high amounts of lactic acid during a workout. Anyone who had done any of the DTP style training can vouch for the doms brougt on by this!
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandroid828

    I would like to see this answered too. I beleive doms doesnt matter because while it can be an indicator of a good workout and muscle microtears, it can also be brought on by high amounts of lactic acid during a workout. Anyone who had done any of the DTP style training can vouch for the doms brougt on by this!
    I've tried DTP & GVT.
    I'm mixing the two in my in my own format & dubbing it Aaron's F5 Training: Total Destruction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1

    I've tried DTP & GVT.
    I'm mixing the two in my in my own format & dubbing it Aaron's F5 Training: Total Destruction.
    Dude. This needs to be available to the world haha. Thats a brilliant approach i havent even considered. I love both seperately.
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    Lactic acid in and of itself shouldn't cause DOMS..unless I am tripping.

    DOMS is highly interesting though. It has always interested me how susceptible certain body parts are to DOMS in my experience while others are more resistant. Hmmm..
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    DOMS have a variety of causes. You could have the best workout in the world and not get sore due to training adaptations to your routine.What you "should be looking for" is progressive overload on compound lifts and muscular stimulation via ancillary exercises. I thought this was common knowledge. If it's not, exercise section >>> supplement section in terms of where you should spend your time
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    DOMS have a variety of causes. You could have the best workout in the world and not get sore due to training adaptations to your routine.What you "should be looking for" is progressive overload on compound lifts and muscular stimulation via ancillary exercises. I thought this was common knowledge. If it's not, exercise section >>> supplement section in terms of where you should spend your time
    But its not as cool in there and this is where all the good bros hang out!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    DOMS have a variety of causes. You could have the best workout in the world and not get sore due to training adaptations to your routine.What you "should be looking for" is progressive overload on compound lifts and muscular stimulation via ancillary exercises. I thought this was common knowledge. If it's not, exercise section >>> supplement section in terms of where you should spend your time
    You do know a stronger muscle does not always equal a bigger muscle right?
    A people have seen great results with high volume training, from Pro BB to average gym go'ers (weekend warriors).
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    You do know a stronger muscle does not always equal a bigger muscle right?
    A people have seen great results with high volume training, from Pro BB to average gym go'ers (weekend warriors).
    Yes, I do know that, thanks LOL.

    No one said anything about strength training. Progressive overload + muscular stimulation (or volume, since you didn't seem to understand my post) are the keys to hypertrophy. Training for pain and pumps is not the same as high volume. Pumps merely indicate increasing nutrient demand and would be most pronounced in endurance training (which would not be the pure ideal for hypertrophy). Pain is usually indicative of lactic acid build-up and would also be most pronounced during endurance training. Volume training refers to the total workload of the training session and has nothing to do with pumps or pain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    Yes, I do know that, thanks LOL.

    No one said anything about strength training. Progressive overload + muscular stimulation (or volume, since you didn't seem to understand my post) are the keys to hypertrophy. Training for pain and pumps is not the same as high volume. Pumps merely indicate increasing nutrient demand and would be most pronounced in endurance training (which would not be the pure ideal for hypertrophy). Pain is usually indicative of lactic acid build-up and would also be most pronounced during endurance training. Volume training refers to the total workload of the training session and has nothing to do with pumps or pain.
    So we been talking about the same thing... Total work load, but I agree with getting stronger is beneficial as well.

    As far as understanding your post? It's called clarification.

    Your post are a sea of words usually over most peoples heads, very knowledgeable but hard to understand.
    Non the less I respect your opinions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    So we been talking about the same thing... Total work load, but I agree with getting stronger is beneficial as well.

    As far as understanding your post? It's called clarification.

    Your post are a sea of words usually over most peoples heads, very knowledgeable but hard to understand.
    Non the less I respect your opinions.
    I didn't mean that in a bad way lol, I applaud you for digging deeper. When I'm blunt in terms of definitions and the like, it's usually because I'm pressed for time and don't have the luxury of "roseying it up" or adding smilies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    I didn't mean that in a bad way lol, I applaud you for digging deeper. When I'm blunt in terms of definitions and the like, it's usually because I'm pressed for time and don't have the luxury of "roseying it up" or adding smilies.
    Thank you Coop, got nothing but respect for you...
    Yup, I'll like to understand more, there's a lot to learn from you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    Lactic acid in and of itself shouldn't cause DOMS..unless I am tripping.

    DOMS is highly interesting though. It has always interested me how susceptible certain body parts are to DOMS in my experience while others are more resistant. Hmmm..
    Thats right, DOMS is not caused by lactic acid (although lactic acid is a limitor of anaerobic exercise). That being said, the full etiology of DOMS is not readily understood. Eccentric training is a common factor in the onset of DOMS and DOMS itself is also known to be caused my micro tears in muscle tissues which cause inflammation (Studied by measuring the blood cells of people with DOMS finding out that the white blood cells responsible for dealing with inflammation were highly present in the tissue).

    COOP when you stated (above) that endurance training will be hindered by lactic acid build up; do you mean "high reps"? Because running sub VO2max would ensure that A) any (if any) lactic acid is turned into pyruvate which will be fed back into the Krebs cycle and B) that the glycolytic system or lactic acid system would not be utilized as much when the aerobic system is engaged (not saying their isnt a cross-over of energy systems but if the aerobic system can function optimally then wouldnt A) occur?

    Depending on your lactate threshold, exercise is usually limited at around the 1-2minute mark by lactate which I wouldnt really call endurance myself UNLESS you mean muscular endurance. In that case my points are moot haha

    Just looking for clarification
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Thats right, DOMS is not caused by lactic acid (although lactic acid is a limitor of anaerobic exercise). That being said, the full etiology of DOMS is not readily understood. Eccentric training is a common factor in the onset of DOMS and DOMS itself is also known to be caused my micro tears in muscle tissues which cause inflammation (Studied by measuring the blood cells of people with DOMS finding out that the white blood cells responsible for dealing with inflammation were highly present in the tissue).

    COOP when you stated (above) that endurance training will be hindered by lactic acid build up; do you mean "high reps"? Because running sub VO2max would ensure that A) any (if any) lactic acid is turned into pyruvate which will be fed back into the Krebs cycle and B) that the glycolytic system or lactic acid system would not be utilized as much when the aerobic system is engaged (not saying their isnt a cross-over of energy systems but if the aerobic system can function optimally then wouldnt A) occur?

    Depending on your lactate threshold, exercise is usually limited at around the 1-2minute mark by lactate which I wouldnt really call endurance myself UNLESS you mean muscular endurance. In that case my points are moot haha

    Just looking for clarification
    Yes, high reps (the discussion is about weight training ). Lactic acid obviously would not be created for pure aerobic work
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    Wow, great call! I get this whenever I stay up really late/don't sleep at night. Vascularity also gets insane (even moreso than when I'm lifting!). I honestly don't have an answer but am going to look into this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by runner_79 View Post
    Adrenaline?
    With no stimulus?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Yes, high reps (the discussion is about weight training ). Lactic acid obviously would not be created for pure aerobic work
    I thought that was what you meant, just checking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz

    Thats right, DOMS is not caused by lactic acid (although lactic acid is a limitor of anaerobic exercise). That being said, the full etiology of DOMS is not readily understood. Eccentric training is a common factor in the onset of DOMS and DOMS itself is also known to be caused my micro tears in muscle tissues which cause inflammation (Studied by measuring the blood cells of people with DOMS finding out that the white blood cells responsible for dealing with inflammation were highly present in the tissue).

    COOP when you stated (above) that endurance training will be hindered by lactic acid build up; do you mean "high reps"? Because running sub VO2max would ensure that A) any (if any) lactic acid is turned into pyruvate which will be fed back into the Krebs cycle and B) that the glycolytic system or lactic acid system would not be utilized as much when the aerobic system is engaged (not saying their isnt a cross-over of energy systems but if the aerobic system can function optimally then wouldnt A) occur?

    Depending on your lactate threshold, exercise is usually limited at around the 1-2minute mark by lactate which I wouldnt really call endurance myself UNLESS you mean muscular endurance. In that case my points are moot haha

    Just looking for clarification
    This is the part where i bail because you just went wayyy over my head. Haha. Community college edyoukashun here lol.
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    I workout first thing in the am. If I take any stim and go back to sleep an extra 15-20 mins its completely different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM11
    I workout first thing in the am. If I take any stim and go back to sleep an extra 15-20 mins its completely different.
    Huh?
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    I have tried to get an extra 15-20 mins of sleep so when I woke up the stimulant would kick in less time. (Bioscience) it leaves me feeling very very out of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    With no stimulus?
    I'm beginning to think it has to do with fluid retention, dehydration, body (skin) temperature, and vasodilation associated with all of that and meal timings. I'm sure if I continued to eat throughout the night I wouldn't feel it as much, but after meeting kcals/macros for the day I typically stop around midnight and don't feel the "pump/vasodilation" until hours later. And you are right its almost more pronounced compared to what I feel when I lift!
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    Interesting thread.
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