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    help me find an old thread please


    I tried to look up the old rpn havoc thread

    Had all cycle info and what supporting supps and such, if anyone has it id appreciate it!

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    I'll try and find that thread, in the mean time take a look at this

    Cycles for Beginners!! please look!
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    i have seen this, i remember how helpful the old thread was an wanted to take a look back, still can not find it.

    Cant remember if it was something like havoc Q&A or what...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legacykid
    i have seen this, i remember how helpful the old thread was an wanted to take a look back, still can not find it.

    Cant remember if it was something like havoc Q&A or what...
    I think you may be thinking of another board. That one has a very detailed write up of havoc and supporting sups. It's still there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    I'll try and find that thread, in the mean time take a look at this

    Cycles for Beginners!! please look!
    Guide lacks info, Clomid is better than Tamox and Torem...gotta make the note of Blood pressure and acne there. Cycle assist is great, but adding higher dosed fish oils, CoQ10 , celery Seed and lower sat fats on cycle is essential...some people can't stand the BP spikes of epi. Not to mention even if Inhibit-P is great for helping in acne situations , dosing acnedren on cycle too along with it might be best.

    No need for Erase+Formastane , either Arimistane or Formastane...and DAA is usually for 6 weeks of PCT not only 5, So it runs as long as your AI and since day 1 of PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza

    Guide lacks info, Clomid is better than Tamox and Torem...gotta make the note of Blood pressure and acne there. Cycle assist is great, but adding higher dosed fish oils, CoQ10 , celery Seed and lower sat fats on cycle is essential...some people can't stand the BP spikes of epi. Not to mention even if Inhibit-P is great for helping in acne situations , dosing acnedren on cycle too along with it might be best.

    No need for Erase+Formastane , either Arimistane or Formastane...and DAA is usually for 6 weeks of PCT not only 5, So it runs as long as your AI and since day PCT.
    It never says run 2 AIs. And clomid is very weak. Torem and nolva at low dosage will **** on clomids chest at low dose. And its a guide to help them. Not tell them what to do. Some people don't get acne or little acne. Im not gonna tell some one to use an acne product if it isn't necessary for everyone. If they are worried about acne they can post and let me know. And acnedren is nice. And do you think most people asking about PHs even take fish oils or know what CoQ10 , celery Seed do. I'll make some adjustments to the thread. Make you happy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    It never says run 2 AIs. And clomid is very weak. Torem and nolva at low dosage will **** on clomids chest at low dose. And its a guide to help them. Not tell them what to do. Some people don't get acne or little acne. Im not gonna tell some one to use an acne product if it isn't necessary for everyone. If they are worried about acne they can post and let me know. And acnedren is nice. And do you think most people asking about PHs even take fish oils or know what CoQ10 , celery Seed do. I'll make some adjustments to the thread. Make you happy.
    Most of the people posting here have 0 to no idea and think they do miracles. Do more research Gregg, I like yah bro but Nolva will never be superior to Clomid...Ask anyone with more experience than you my friend. I can speak for Nolva myself, not due to PHs but due to some attack on gyno and it puffs back as soon as you are off, yet for some it might not...Nolva is good for that...but as far as HTPA rebooting nothing like Clomid. 50/50/25/25 is most anyone would need, and I don't know how you think Low dosed nolva (so around 10/10/10/10) would be better than clomid...when they come in different mg/ml ratios and are totally different research chemicals.

    List everything they might possibly need if you are gonna make a guide of something you have never tried. Fact is they can pick what they want from the support supplements, yet it is nice to show what all they might need or simply cite the Tuned Sports bibles there if you want to make it a bit more complete, and add the support supps !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Most of the people posting here have 0 to no idea and think they do miracles. Do more research Gregg, I like yah bro but Nolva will never be superior to Clomid...Ask anyone with more experience than you my friend. I can speak for Nolva myself, not due to PHs but due to some attack on gyno and it puffs back as soon as you are off, yet for some it might not...Nolva is good for that...but as far as HTPA rebooting nothing like Clomid. 50/50/25/25 is most anyone would need, and I don't know how you think Low dosed nolva (so around 10/10/10/10) would be better than clomid...when they come in different mg/ml ratios and are totally different research chemicals.

    List everything they might possibly need if you are gonna make a guide of something you have never tried. Fact is they can pick what they want from the support supplements, yet it is nice to show what all they might need or simply cite the Tuned Sports bibles there if you want to make it a bit more complete, and add the support supps !
    yea I was going to add the tuned sports bible. And at actually being a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator nolva is better. As far as HTPA clomid is better. That's why both are used on very suppressive cycles. And your comparing them doing completely different things. As acting as a SERM nolva at 20mg, is way more effective then clomid at 20mg, or even the typical 25mg. You haven't tried them either.. lol. And neither has any doctor. Well im going to go do some updates on the thread, Ill send you a PM when im finished so you can tell me what you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    yea I was going to add the tuned sports bible. And at actually being a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator nolva is better. As far as HTPA clomid is better. That's why both are used on very suppressive cycles. And your comparing them doing completely different things. As acting as a SERM nolva at 20mg, is way more effective then clomid at 20mg, or even the typical 25mg. You haven't tried them either.. lol. And neither has any doctor. Well im going to go do some updates on the thread, Ill send you a PM when im finished so you can tell me what you think.
    I have had Nolva on the contrary, and like I said and you didn't get Gregory:

    Comparing 20mg Nolva to 20mg Clomid is as wrong as saying:

    50mg of Epistane is better than 100mg of Hdrol...

    Both are sold in different concentrations and (around) the same prices...max dosage or sweet spot dosage of one should be compared for another...that said:

    50mg of Clomid compared to 20mg of Nolva would be effective comparison...if you wanna talk effectiveness try it with studies...Nolva is not the best SERM to get for a PCT, I'll tell you what...go do a Trenazone/Trenavar/Tren-A cycle and dose Nolva however way you want it on PCT ! I'll be waiting here hehe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    yea I was going to add the tuned sports bible. And at actually being a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator nolva is better. As far as HTPA clomid is better. That's why both are used on very suppressive cycles. And your comparing them doing completely different things. As acting as a SERM nolva at 20mg, is way more effective then clomid at 20mg, or even the typical 25mg. You haven't tried them either.. lol. And neither has any doctor. Well im going to go do some updates on the thread, Ill send you a PM when im finished so you can tell me what you think.
    http://brazjurol.com.br/july_august_...os_512_518.htm

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22458540

    I have anotherone that compares the effects of different SERMs but you need to have payed access to the database if you want to read it. Being part of UT lets me access it though...lets move this to PMs anyway...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I have had Nolva on the contrary, and like I said and you didn't get Gregory:

    Comparing 20mg Nolva to 20mg Clomid is as wrong as saying:

    50mg of Epistane is better than 100mg of Hdrol...

    Both are sold in different concentrations and (around) the same prices...max dosage or sweet spot dosage of one should be compared for another...that said:

    50mg of Clomid compared to 20mg of Nolva would be effective comparison...if you wanna talk effectiveness try it with studies...Nolva is not the best SERM to get for a PCT, I'll tell you what...go do a Trenazone/Trenavar/Tren-A cycle and dose Nolva however way you want it on PCT ! I'll be waiting here hehe.
    for that Clomid is better, nolva isnt good with 19 nors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    http://brazjurol.com.br/july_august_...os_512_518.htm

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22458540

    I have anotherone that compares the effects of different SERMs but you need to have payed access to the database if you want to read it. Being part of UT lets me access it though...lets move this to PMs anyway...
    get me some access! and PM on the way hehe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Most of the people posting here have 0 to no idea and think they do miracles. Do more research Gregg, I like yah bro but Nolva will never be superior to Clomid...Ask anyone with more experience than you my friend. I can speak for Nolva myself, not due to PHs but due to some attack on gyno and it puffs back as soon as you are off, yet for some it might not...Nolva is good for that...but as far as HTPA rebooting nothing like Clomid. 50/50/25/25 is most anyone would need, and I don't know how you think Low dosed nolva (so around 10/10/10/10) would be better than clomid...when they come in different mg/ml ratios and are totally different research chemicals.

    List everything they might possibly need if you are gonna make a guide of something you have never tried. Fact is they can pick what they want from the support supplements, yet it is nice to show what all they might need or simply cite the Tuned Sports bibles there if you want to make it a bit more complete, and add the support supps !
    Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

    Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

    The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

    PMID: 640052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

    Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

    The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

    PMID: 640052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    It's a 30 year old + study Greg...analyze the whole body of data first. For HTPA and testosterone restoration Clomid (and the study I showed yah) at 25mg is best...I would say 50mg anyway to be on the safe side. Less harsh on the body too, check the whole studies I sent yah.

    Now as far as this one, get me the results...I wanna see the great increases Tamoxifen did (not saying none, just don't think better than the MORE RECENT STUDY I sent yah on 25mg)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    It's a 30 year old + study Greg...analyze the whole body of data first. For HTPA and testosterone restoration Clomid (and the study I showed yah) at 25mg is best...I would say 50mg anyway to be on the safe side. Less harsh on the body too, check the whole studies I sent yah.

    Now as far as this one, get me the results...I wanna see the great increases Tamoxifen did (not saying none, just don't think better than the MORE RECENT STUDY I sent yah on 25mg)
    Check PMs,
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    It never says run 2 AIs. And clomid is very weak. Torem and nolva at low dosage will **** on clomids chest at low dose. And its a guide to help them. Not tell them what to do. Some people don't get acne or little acne. Im not gonna tell some one to use an acne product if it isn't necessary for everyone. If they are worried about acne they can post and let me know. And acnedren is nice. And do you think most people asking about PHs even take fish oils or know what CoQ10 , celery Seed do. I'll make some adjustments to the thread. Make you happy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Most of the people posting here have 0 to no idea and think they do miracles. Do more research Gregg, I like yah bro but Nolva will never be superior to Clomid...Ask anyone with more experience than you my friend. I can speak for Nolva myself, not due to PHs but due to some attack on gyno and it puffs back as soon as you are off, yet for some it might not...Nolva is good for that...but as far as HTPA rebooting nothing like Clomid. 50/50/25/25 is most anyone would need, and I don't know how you think Low dosed nolva (so around 10/10/10/10) would be better than clomid...when they come in different mg/ml ratios and are totally different research chemicals.

    List everything they might possibly need if you are gonna make a guide of something you have never tried. Fact is they can pick what they want from the support supplements, yet it is nice to show what all they might need or simply cite the Tuned Sports bibles there if you want to make it a bit more complete, and add the support supps !
    Both Nolva and Clomid have their pros and cons which is why it really depends on the user and the cycle its being used for

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    Check PMs,
    Just did ! And read the PM thoroughly young padawan!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mw1 View Post
    Both Nolva and Clomid have their pros and cons which is why it really depends on the user and the cycle its being used for
    Haha gregg and I are good pals, we are just trying to find common ground here. I am more of a Clomid supporter, he is a Tamox supporter...we just wanna convert each other !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Haha gregg and I are good pals, we are just trying to find common ground here. I am more of a Clomid supporter, he is a Tamox supporter...we just wanna convert each other !
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Est1969 View Post
    I think you may be thinking of another board. That one has a very detailed write up of havoc and supporting sups. It's still there.
    100% it was on this board i guess this thread got a little derailed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legacykid View Post
    100% it was on this board i guess this thread got a little derailed
    Yeah. Celorza tends to hijack entire threads make it a forum for him to JAM his opinion down peoples' throat!

    Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Yeah. Celorza tends to hijack entire threads make it a forum for him to JAM his opinion down peoples' throat!

    Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation
    Dunn here to save the day again.. We needed you like 3 hours ago LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Yeah. Celorza tends to hijack entire threads make it a forum for him to JAM his opinion down peoples' throat!

    Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation
    I got a bit carried away...Gregg and I are friendly on PMs...just forgot to take this to PMs and got comfortable discussing it with him here...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I got a bit carried away...Gregg and I are friendly on PMs...just forgot to take this to PMs and got comfortable discussing it with him here...
    Yea Dunn this was a friendly discussion between bros. Its all good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    Yea Dunn this was a friendly discussion between bros. Its all good!
    Which apparently you won, I just om nom nomed that article, seems Nolva is good after all .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Which apparently you won, I just om nom nomed that article, seems Nolva is good after all .
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg1494 View Post
    Yes very Mature Gregory ,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Yes very Mature Gregory ,
    Im the focking man!!
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    Awesome..so wheres this thread lol!?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I got a bit carried away...Gregg and I are friendly on PMs...just forgot to take this to PMs and got comfortable discussing it with him here...
    No. You GET carried away...often. Relax. It, any of it, is not that important, including you or me.
    Any time I read any of your posts it screams an angry raging young man. Don't get all Napolian complex on us...he pulled his bone apart
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    No. You GET carried away...often. Relax. It, any of it, is not that important, including you or me.
    Any time I read any of your posts it screams an angry raging young man. Don't get all Napolian complex on us...he pulled his bone apart
    Woah woah. No need for more posts we hijacked this guys thread enough lol.


    Ps: celorza im the man =p
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    No. You GET carried away...often. Relax. It, any of it, is not that important, including you or me.
    Any time I read any of your posts it screams an angry raging young man. Don't get all Napolian complex on us...he pulled his bone apart
    Have I ever told yah how scared I am of you? Even more after the last incident we had hehe...(serious, I am not mocking you) I damn near had a heart attack when I saw you posted here...
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Yeah. Celorza tends to hijack entire threads make it a forum for him to JAM his opinion down peoples' throat!

    Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation
    he fails to mention toxicity effects and the point he makes on their ability to be an AI is a tad misleading. One wants to restore normal endocrine function, not completely shut down estrogen which nolva has this potential. When taking these into account clomid is clearly the superior SERM for HPTA recovery IMO.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    The article addresses testosterone production.
    Is there data to support your claim regarding toxicity and does it consider the fact that in contrast to nolva the doses of clomid is often 5x that of nolva?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Have I ever told yah how scared I am of you? Even more after the last incident we had hehe...(serious, I am not mocking you) I damn near had a heart attack when I saw you posted here...
    Relax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    The article addresses testosterone production.
    Is there data to support your claim regarding toxicity and does it consider the fact that in contrast to nolva the doses of clomid is often 5x that of nolva?
    Here's where I bow out ! I can say I have only Forum Log research upon toxicity of them, with some bloods. Sadly my claim was a bit spitballed as we both know Clomid poses Ocular toxicity and Nolva doesn't...Celly has still much to learn it seems
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    he fails to mention toxicity effects and the point he makes on their ability to be an AI is a tad misleading. One wants to restore normal endocrine function, not completely shut down estrogen which nolva has this potential. When taking these into account clomid is clearly the superior SERM for HPTA recovery IMO.
    This point I did address to Greg on PMs , the point of the serm is help restore Homeostasis...in that sense to bring back endogenous testosterone production. For Estrogen control AIs are kept during wet cycles and on their PCTs, and reglardles the cycle there is an AI for that intent on PCT, hence I like the article I brought up for 25mg Clomid effective for restarting endogenous T production...But David Dunn does bring up a point...my toxicity claim was not well founded...
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    The article addresses testosterone production.
    Is there data to support your claim regarding toxicity and does it consider the fact that in contrast to nolva the doses of clomid is often 5x that of nolva?
    On toxicity - http://idosi.org/mejsr/mejsr9(1)11/18.pdf

    Despite treating with silymarin nolva appears to still be quite hepatoxic

    As for effects on estrogen, yes nolva has the potential to be an aromatase inhibitor (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21390495) but this is not necessarily a good thing. Remember the goal in PCT is to restore a normal and healthy endocrine system and completely shutting down estrogen is not going to help with this as you are going to need to have some (normal) amount of estrogen. Hell one might even argue that nolva use can actually SLOW your HPTA recovery.

    Lastly, considering we have actual evidence for clomid and its efficiacy for the treatment hypogonadism- http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...702.x/abstract

    I maintain, clomid is the clear choice here
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    Some more on nolva

    On non-alcoholic fatty liver disease - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...87197911000050

    On impotence - http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/con...nc.mdr459.full
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  

  
 

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