Thoughts on PNI Paragon?
- 09-30-2012, 02:31 PM
Thoughts on PNI Paragon?
How do the ingredients look for you supplement experts?Ingredients:
Vitamine D-3 1,000 IU 250% Urtica Dioica Extract 334 mg ** Prunella Vulgaris Extract 234 mg ** Euonymus Alatus Extract 200 mg ** Forskolin 50% 34 mg ** Menaquinone-4 10 mg ** N-Methyl-D-Aspartic Acid 10 mgNMDAD-Aspartic Acid is incredibly popular as a testosterone booster -- and for good reason, as studies have shown that a dose of 3000mg/day can dramatically increase testosterone levels in men. N-methyl D-Aspartate is simply a more powerful form of DAA: It appears to be 100 times more potent on an equimolar basis (ref), and has a fundamentally-identical mechanism of action. Like DAA, it induces LH release and increases mRNA expression of the steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR) -- a protein which shuttles cholesterol into the mitochondria of steroidogenic cells, and which represents the first rate-limiting step in steroid biosynthesis. There's no need to reference DAA studies: NMDA itself has been shown to dramatically increase testosterone in animal models. (ref)Menaquinone-4MK-4 is the most active form of vitamin K, and is found in high concentrations in the testes. Studies in animals have shown that Vitamin K/MK4 deficiency leads to reduced expression of steroidogenic genes and low testosterone levels (ref); another study has shown that MK-4 supplementation can increase testosterone levels via the induction of protein kinase A, CREB, and, most importantly, P450scc. (ref) • PKA is a multi-functional enzyme which activates steroidogenic transcription factors such as steroidogenic factor 1, GATA-4, and the aforementioned StAR. Like StAR, PKA also directly facilitates cholesterol transport into the mitochondria of leydig cells. (ref) PKA is also a positive regulator of the P450scc enzyme.• CREB is a upstream regulator of the aforementioned StAR, and increases in CREB expression have been shown to increase StAR promoter activity, StAR mRNA, and StAR protein levels in leydig cells. (ref)• P450scc is the 'side-chain-cleavage' enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone -- and after StAR shuttles cholesterol into the mitochondria of steroidogenic cells, this becomes the rate-limiting step in testosterone biosynthesis. If StAR is sufficiently activated, P450scc is the bottleneck. Paragon amplifies P450scc expression with a hefty dose of MK-4 and destroys this bottleneck, allowing for much greater testosterone production.Vitamin D3Vitamin D represents another way to boost testosterone levels. Its mechanism of action has not been entirely elucidated, but seems to involve 17b-HSD induction. (ref, ref) While not a rate-limiting step, increases in 17b-HSD enzyme activity should increase the rate of conversion of DHEA to androstenediol, and therefore speed-up testosterone biosynthesis. Regardless of mechanism, it's very clear that the stuff works: Vitamin D3 has been shown to increase testosterone levels in healthy adult males (ref), and two recent studies have shown a correlation between serum Vitamin D levels and testosterone levels. (ref, ref) Vitamin D may also improve muscle function (ref, ref) and athletic performance. (ref, ref) Given its many benefits, and its ability to potentially increase testosterone via a seemingly-unique mechanism, its role in Paragon is well warranted.ForskolinForskolin is a potent cAMP-activator which should increase testosterone biosynthesis via a now-familiar mechanism: cAMP activation leads to Protein Kinase A phosphorylation and CREB induction, PKA and CREB both potentiate StAR, which then increases transport of cholesterol into the mitochondria. LH itself works in a nearly identical manner. At the dose contained in Prodigy It has been shown to increase testosterone levels in healthy adult men (ref). It also has beneficial effects where body composition is concerned -- due to increases in testosterone and induction of hormone sensitive lipase (HSL), an enzyme which is usually the rate-limiting step in lipolysis. (ref)Euonymus Alatus and Prunella Vulgaris extractsWidely-used as Chinese herbal medicines, Euonymus Alatus and Prunella Vulgaris deliver a one-two punch to estrogen. Euonymous Alatus extract is a potent aromatase inhibitor with an IC50 of 11μm in Human placental aromatase. Animal studies have shown striking results: Treatment with EA extracts can lead to total estrogen deprivation in normal female rats. What's more, it displays selectivity for certain tissue types, and it may be much more selective and active towards aromatase enzymes expressed in breast tissue. This latter property may make it especially useful to people who are prone to gyno. (ref) It may be the most potent herbal aromatase inhibitor on the market today.In contrast to Euonymus Alatus, Prunella Vulgaris interferes with estrogen receptor signalling indirectly. An unidentified compound within the extract binds to the aryl hydrocarbon receptor (AHR) as a full agonist, and this ligand-receptor complex seems to degrade the estrogen receptor protein via ubiquitin-mediated mechanisms. It seems to also compete with ER-mediated gene transcription via unknown mechanisms. (ref)One thing is certain: Estrogen is of no concern to anybody on Paragon!Urtica Dioica extractIt should be a shame to boost testosterone, only to have it deactivated by SHBG. Urtica Dioica (Stinging Nettle) root extract contains (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran and numerous other inhibitors of SHBG. (ref, ref) We use a full-spectrum aqueous extract, which will help ensure that more of the testosterone you produce is put to good use.The bottom line: PARAGON strongly targets every pathway to testosterone production, while still paying attention to estrogen, aromatase, and SHBG. There is no better PCT product on the market, and it's extremely potent as a standalone test-booster.
- 09-30-2012, 02:49 PM
I think it looks great specially the sale with the free shirt and you can't beat the price...it's a great all around supp...as your standard daa and AI is the normal combo for pct or just as a stand alone...we eliminate the problem of using two different products which saves you money and make it more simple with just 1 product to take.Email me for free prodigy samples
- 09-30-2012, 02:53 PM
09-30-2012, 02:58 PM
Plus a free shirt and I'm currently on the last few weeks of my cycle then I have a bottle ready for me to use during pct with Clomid and that's all so we will see how great it works...I'm really sure if more people would see how revolutionary it is it would blow upOriginally Posted by dlucks
Email me for free prodigy samples
09-30-2012, 03:07 PM
IDk,i never heard of this company...Alot of stuff is hyped,yet alot is bull****.
Ill stick with PES,SNS,iForce,ON,Dymatize and a few others.I like to stay consistant.
09-30-2012, 03:16 PM
So bc a company is new you won't try it? And all great companies were new at one pointOriginally Posted by Jay888999
Email me for free prodigy samples
09-30-2012, 03:19 PM
09-30-2012, 03:20 PM
Im picky with what i buy and when i find what works,i stick with it.No need n venture out of my range.yes,im closed minded with certain things.
Will i maybe down the road,ya never know. I will wait til i see some results from ppl that had blood work and some more trusted memebers opinions before I pay it mind.
Nothing personal,but dude,alot of supplements are bull****.Up until about 4-5 months ago,I just started really messing with supps.Ive ran a few certain things with great results,so i knda loaded up.All natural ofcourse.
09-30-2012, 03:24 PM
Awesome plus you get free shipping with prodigyOriginally Posted by mattys4
It's ok bro I totally agree n respect your choice...lots of supps are over hyped but just keep in mind we have references with every ingredient and I will post my blood work before and afterOriginally Posted by Jay888999
Email me for free prodigy samples
09-30-2012, 03:32 PM
09-30-2012, 03:43 PM
>SNS-Glycophase<Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
09-30-2012, 03:54 PM
09-30-2012, 04:02 PM
i know ya respect Howwedo,but that doesnt mean you necessarily support a product cause u like some one and there CEO,thats def not how **** works bro,thats not being true to yourself,but true to someone just because you like them. thats not a reason to stand by a product.YOU ARE ABSOLUTLEY WRONG !
Until something is tried and proven then u support it.You just dont becuase.... thats my view.
I been doing this a while. 8 years,my bro since 1996 and well,i took and take alot of his advice. A majority of supps are garbage bro.Its the advice my bro told me,its been my expierience as well..Funny how a poster here named Whacked just made the same statement as my bro,just breofre "99% of supps are garbage."
i respect and value your advice as wells as coops on supps and there effects and dosing ofcourse.
09-30-2012, 04:07 PM
I get what you mean...I just happen to have tried their Prodigy (PWO) and liked it very much . And well, Chad is really nice and he shared many ideas with me , things he has planned in the future for PNI. I think this company is in for big things, main thing I respect them is they don't go and copy formulas Jay , they try to innovate with different extracts and ingredients and well formulas altogether! That is something that has been lacking in this industry lately !
>SNS-Glycophase<Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
09-30-2012, 04:43 PM
Thanks for chiming in on this thread and I welcome the chance to answer any questions regarding our products.
09-30-2012, 04:47 PM
I'm logging PNI's Thermodex right now and loving it -
Finding My Old Self with PNI’s Thermodex (sponsored)
Looking forward to running Paragon sometime early next year.
So far, I really like what I am seeing from PNI.
Last edited by Colbicide; 09-30-2012 at 04:54 PM. Reason: Added link to log if anyone's curious.
“Beastmode is when you can not possibly go any further, but then you make a conscious choice to move forward”.
09-30-2012, 04:49 PM
I expressed to your bud on this page.Once i see and hear of proven results on paper and word of mouth through trusted and vet memebers,honest outspoken members that is,then ill open my views.
Alot of pplrun reviews of products and give 8,9 and 10s across the board.Well alot of reviews and logs i have read are from very inexpierieneced ppl or ppl just being nice,but not fully understanding to how supps work and if u are really getting results.
ti will be running a sponsored log for app nut tommorow.I will be true from day 1-30. as much as i respect dewey and drooks.If i feel there supps didnt produce I will be 100% honest about it. I did some reviews for Gaspari a while ago,i stayed 100% honest,if it offends a certain rep,i am sorry,but i a will not rep a prodcut thats bogus and have ppl waste there money.thats the point of a log,ya know
I went off topic a bit here.Im rambling bro,lol
09-30-2012, 05:11 PM
The profile is exceptional, but it could be a total flop depending on how they extracted the ingredients. Urtica is crap if extracted cheaply, as is eonymus (phytoandrogen standardization was pricy last time I checked). BUT:
-Worst case scenario: they used all cheap extracts. You still get full-dosed forskolin and NMDA (prunella and vit K will do nothing for hormones, realistically). That, in itself, is a good value.
-Best case scenario: they extracted everything properly, in which case I will be adding this product to my next order
The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
09-30-2012, 05:16 PM
09-30-2012, 05:46 PM
09-30-2012, 06:07 PM
09-30-2012, 06:09 PM
09-30-2012, 06:11 PM
09-30-2012, 06:15 PM
Im no sucker or simple minded fool.We all need to remember,$$$ is the route of all evil and ppl will do what they got to to make it.
Trust me man,i like the ingredient s in this product.It def intrigues me. im not shutting you guys out.I will keep eyes open to your products as well as reviews and or any logs made.
I usually dont care,but please dont take my posts wrong.I dont believe in sugar coating things.I never did and never will.I believe to an extent say whats on your mind.Especially if it may help others or cya =)
09-30-2012, 06:19 PM
PS- If you look you will see I have been a member on here since 2003. By no means am I a newbie
09-30-2012, 06:29 PM
09-30-2012, 06:30 PM
who been weight training,that you would be honest to the consumer.
i will keep my eyes very open to this product and others by your comp.I can imagine how it feels to be a running a new company.
best of luck and look fwd to hopefully giving some PNI products a shot.
have a good nite,bud.
09-30-2012, 06:33 PM
Lol Ricky you ever pick those things up for me?
09-30-2012, 07:22 PM
10-01-2012, 07:04 AM
10-01-2012, 08:08 AM
Im going to run this as part of PCT in the near future Ill log it. Maybe get some bloodwork done as well.
Lecheek Nutrition Rep
XCEL SPORTS NUTRITION SPONSORED ATHLETE
I am here to help please inbox me any questions
10-01-2012, 08:12 AM
That would be great and would be beneficial to everyone on AM. But ut could wind up not heing benedicial to PNI if its bogus.Originally Posted by mattys4
Im always weary of new companys,nothing personal
10-01-2012, 08:58 AM
10-01-2012, 09:10 AM
No,i dnt like hugs from strangers or men,lol, unless there from my girl,i dont accept hugs, thnx for the offer though!Originally Posted by bigswole30
Then again,are these hugs free? Cause i might reconsider <3<3<3
I am positive PNI will yield fantastic results and i look fwd to the day i get to supplement with there products,"maybe even a sponsored log,unless there not confident in there product,cause i would be 100% honest",lmao(im just busting chops with that one ). They seem to be an up and coming great company with alot of promise.
Best of luck to PNI
10-01-2012, 09:11 AM
Jay... They are a legit company. You should definitely give their products a try
10-01-2012, 09:54 AM
10-01-2012, 09:55 AM
10-01-2012, 11:07 AM
That's what I like to hearOriginally Posted by bigswole30
10-01-2012, 12:34 PM
For Euonymus, we used an aqueous bark extract, at 20:1 concentration. (High in polysacharrides and triterpene/steroidal glycosides.) This is exactly consistent with the extract used in the only study which examined the effects of Euonymus Alatus on aromatase. For Urtica, we used a full-spectrum aqueous root extract. We can't claim 98% standardization to 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran - but, as we've all learned, most of those companies who have claimed to have a 98% extract were sorely mistaken. The extract we use in Paragon comes from a reputable source, seems to be highly effective, and is dosed properly.
As far as Vitamin K is concerned, we believe that it should have an effect, as long as the dose is high enough. The mechanisms of action are intriguing, particularly its effects on P450scc expression, and this may synergize well with the rest of the formula. It seems to work dramatically well in animal experiments, and the doses we use have been shown to be safe in humans. There's a big chance that it'll do a lot of good; there's a small chance that it won't help at all; but there's no chance that taking it could ever hurt.
10-01-2012, 01:27 PM
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