erase = 3,7-keto dhea? safety?

  1. erase = 3,7-keto dhea? safety?


    if i understand correctly, isn't erase 3,7-keto dhea? if so, i was just wondering about its safety since 3,7-keto dhea has apparently been banned from certain supplement websites. ive seen a few things regarding heart palpitations and rhythm while taking 7-keto (with many referring to 7-keto and 3,7-keto synonymously), so i was just hoping someone could clarify this for me.

    the only side effect ive ever heard of is dry joints, but once people start talking about heart rhythms and palpitations i get nervous haha.


  2. 3,7-dhea is the dumbest name for the ingredient so i refuse to say thats whats in erase.

    There isnt even an oxygen at the 3 position...and if there was it would be represented as 2 ketone groups not one. Anyways

    Its a metabolite of 7-keto, its not the same thing. And the mechanism of actions are drastically different
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  3. so what's this stuff about 3,7-keto dhea being banned or whatever? granted, i just ran across it on some random website while researching the compound, but still
    •   
       


  4. No. It is completely DSHEA compliant and legal.
    doing my own thang!

  5. oh, no, sorry, i didnt mean 'banned' in the sense that it's illegal, i meant banned from sale at places like bb.com

  6. Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    oh, no, sorry, i didnt mean 'banned' in the sense that it's illegal, i meant banned from sale at places like bb.com
    That's not a cutting edge site . They only sell the basics.
    "Strive to seize the initiative in all things"

  7. Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    so what's this stuff about 3,7-keto dhea being banned or whatever? granted, i just ran across it on some random website while researching the compound, but still
    Its not banned anywhere that I am aware of

    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    oh, no, sorry, i didnt mean 'banned' in the sense that it's illegal, i meant banned from sale at places like bb.com
    Some ingredients are too hardcore for some retailers. Theres also a lot of politics involved
    HIGH VOLUME - Supreme Stim-Free Nitric Oxide Matrix
    SELECT Protein
    - Ultra-Premium Blend
    ALPHAMINE - Thermogenics...Redefined

  8. oh, i see. im always weary of new supplements/what i put into my body, so i like to research stuff and it kind of caught me off guard. i just couldnt figure out why they'd pull it if not for safety/health issues.

  9. if pes payed them a butt load of money they would put it on their site in a second.
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  10. 7-Keto is a naturally occuring hormone. As far as hormonal products goes it about as safe as it gets.
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    3,7-dhea is the dumbest name for the ingredient so i refuse to say thats whats in erase.

    There isnt even an oxygen at the 3 position...and if there was it would be represented as 2 ketone groups not one. Anyways

    Its a metabolite of 7-keto, its not the same thing. And the mechanism of actions are drastically different
    You are correct, 7-Keto DHEA (or 7-Oxo) and 3,7-Keto DHEA are different. 3,7-Keto DHEA a shortened alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers will not accept (we know this from experience, unfortunately). 3-Desoxy 7-Keto (Oxo) DHEA is also an alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers also will not accept, because they see the 3-Desoxy prefix and get it confused with Madol (DMT). We simply removed the "desoxy" in the nomenclature- the "3" can denote a structural alteration at the third carbon in the "A" ring, but normally said alteration is listed....We brainstormed this with our compliance attorney, and we decided that this was the best way to go. Not perfect IUPAC nomenclature, but sometimes you have to work with what you are given.

    Check out Numazawa and his research on synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogues and their effects on aromatase....this gives a good understanding of structure/function, and how these analogues match up with aromatase in terms of affinity


    BB.Com will not allow the compound, but to my knowledge, they are the only retailer that rejected in the US. It can't be sold in Europe, or Australia- but it isn't banned in the US....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  12. Quote Originally Posted by rms80

    You are correct, 7-Keto DHEA (or 7-Oxo) and 3,7-Keto DHEA are different. 3,7-Keto DHEA a shortened alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers will not accept (we know this from experience, unfortunately). 3-Desoxy 7-Keto (Oxo) DHEA is also an alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers also will not accept, because they see the 3-Desoxy prefix and get it confused with Madol (DMT). We simply removed the "desoxy" in the nomenclature- the "3" can denote a structural alteration at the third carbon in the "A" ring, but normally said alteration is listed....We brainstormed this with our compliance attorney, and we decided that this was the best way to go. Not perfect IUPAC nomenclature, but sometimes you have to work with what you are given.

    Check out Numazawa and his research on synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogues and their effects on aromatase....this gives a good understanding of structure/function, and how these analogues match up with aromatase in terms of affinity

    BB.Com will not allow the compound, but to my knowledge, they are the only retailer that rejected in the US. It can't be sold in Europe, or Australia- but it isn't banned in the US....
    BB.com is pretty tight on allowing cutting edge things anymore.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by PrepNwa23 View Post
    BB.com is pretty tight on allowing cutting edge things anymore.
    Yes they are- they were bought out by Liberty Media in 2009, and that kind of changed a lot of stuff....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  14. why so restrictive with 'cutting edge things'? just because there isnt enough known about the products or something?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    You are correct, 7-Keto DHEA (or 7-Oxo) and 3,7-Keto DHEA are different. 3,7-Keto DHEA a shortened alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers will not accept (we know this from experience, unfortunately). 3-Desoxy 7-Keto (Oxo) DHEA is also an alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers also will not accept, because they see the 3-Desoxy prefix and get it confused with Madol (DMT). We simply removed the "desoxy" in the nomenclature- the "3" can denote a structural alteration at the third carbon in the "A" ring, but normally said alteration is listed....We brainstormed this with our compliance attorney, and we decided that this was the best way to go. Not perfect IUPAC nomenclature, but sometimes you have to work with what you are given.

    Check out Numazawa and his research on synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogues and their effects on aromatase....this gives a good understanding of structure/function, and how these analogues match up with aromatase in terms of affinity


    BB.Com will not allow the compound, but to my knowledge, they are the only retailer that rejected in the US. It can't be sold in Europe, or Australia- but it isn't banned in the US....
    Think other online retailers will follow suit?
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  16. Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    why so restrictive with 'cutting edge things'? just because there isnt enough known about the products or something?
    "Cutting edge" normally (but not always) equals non-DSHEA Compliant in our industry- compliance teams normally aren't a big fan of these type ingredients, because they can open the retailer up to enforcement (FDA) and/or civil action- it is more a CYA-type move than anything else- think about it this way: would you rather do business having to always look over your shoulder, or knowing that you have all of your legal bases covered and can fully and shamelessly promote your business?

    Plus, if you look at market research in the DS industry (Nielsen 2010-2011), "cutting edge"/"taboo" ingredients tend to be in the lowest percentile when it comes to percentage of overall sales for the industry- they are somewhat popular, but much less popular than other categories like RTDs, Bars, Protein, etc.- but I will say that the better margins are in the "cutting edge" products than some of the other commoditized staples- plus they are more fun to research and develop, source, and mfr., lol
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  17. Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    You are correct, 7-Keto DHEA (or 7-Oxo) and 3,7-Keto DHEA are different. 3,7-Keto DHEA a shortened alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers will not accept (we know this from experience, unfortunately). 3-Desoxy 7-Keto (Oxo) DHEA is also an alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers also will not accept, because they see the 3-Desoxy prefix and get it confused with Madol (DMT). We simply removed the "desoxy" in the nomenclature- the "3" can denote a structural alteration at the third carbon in the "A" ring, but normally said alteration is listed....We brainstormed this with our compliance attorney, and we decided that this was the best way to go. Not perfect IUPAC nomenclature, but sometimes you have to work with what you are given.

    Check out Numazawa and his research on synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogues and their effects on aromatase....this gives a good understanding of structure/function, and how these analogues match up with aromatase in terms of affinity


    BB.Com will not allow the compound, but to my knowledge, they are the only retailer that rejected in the US. It can't be sold in Europe, or Australia- but it isn't banned in the US....
    It is sold in the UK at several online supplement stores. I think I can't say names here but google is your friend if you want to know. I know for fact that the compound in PES Erase is not banned in Finland or UK, and I'm pretty sure that's the case with other EU countries as well.
    I hated every minute of training, but I said, "Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion." -Muhammad Ali

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Jonbero View Post
    It is sold in the UK at several online supplement stores. I think I can't say names here but google is your friend if you want to know. I know for fact that the compound in PES Erase is not banned in Finland or UK, and I'm pretty sure that's the case with other EU countries as well.
    Interesting- DHEA and DHEA derivatives are banned in most of the EU (Italy, Belgium, Holland, Spain, etc.)- but the UK tends to be a little more lenient with DS than most of the other EU countries. I have done a bunch of compliance work to get products approved in several of these different countries, and it is amazing to me how much the rules and regulations differ from sovereign to sovereign.....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  19. Quote Originally Posted by rms80
    Interesting- DHEA and DHEA derivatives are banned in most of the EU (Italy, Belgium, Holland, Spain, etc.)- but the UK tends to be a little more lenient with DS than most of the other EU countries. I have done a bunch of compliance work to get products approved in several of these different countries, and it is amazing to me how much the rules and regulations differ from sovereign to sovereign.....
    Learn something new every day.

    Yeah BB.com won't carry anything that's in the least bit "cutting edge" and play it safe in most manners. Ive known the UK to be more lenient with what they allow while Australia seems to ban everything. Thanks for the in depth, Dirk. Unless you know something about IUPAC I think the nomenclature can leave people scratching heads about what's what. Even then I've gotten confused.
    By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.
    Franz Kafka

  20. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Think other online retailers will follow suit?
    Probably not, unless they absolutely have to- I still see a lot of guys still selling prohormones, LOL
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  21. Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    Learn something new every day.

    Yeah BB.com won't carry anything that's in the least bit "cutting edge" and play it safe in most manners. Ive known the UK to be more lenient with what they allow while Australia seems to ban everything. Thanks for the in depth, Dirk. Unless you know something about IUPAC I think the nomenclature can leave people scratching heads about what's what. Even then I've gotten confused.

    No worries- it is an interesting discussion- when you compare apples to apples, the US is extremely lenient when it comes to regulations on DS (even though we don't think so sometimes)- hopefully it stays that way....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  22. Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Interesting- DHEA and DHEA derivatives are banned in most of the EU (Italy, Belgium, Holland, Spain, etc.)- but the UK tends to be a little more lenient with DS than most of the other EU countries. I have done a bunch of compliance work to get products approved in several of these different countries, and it is amazing to me how much the rules and regulations differ from sovereign to sovereign.....
    Is that why haven't seen any Free Test being sold in the EU haha

    UK is definitely the most lenient EU country when it comes to supplements and DS, I think there's maybe an even bigger selection of DS available in the UK than in U.S. The price just hurts.

    Supplements like PES Erase are in the grey zone here in Finland, its technically an AI but its not in the banned substances list so the customs can't really take it even if they want to. My friend ordered Erase Pro from the UK and the guys at the customs here opened the bottle and took 1 pill for laboratory tests lol. It took 1 month before he could go pick up his order from the customs.
    I hated every minute of training, but I said, "Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion." -Muhammad Ali

  23. Quote Originally Posted by rms80
    Probably not, unless they absolutely have to- I still see a lot of guys still selling prohormones, LOL
    People will always find a way to get what they want is the thing. Now it might not always be the safest and most practical thing but that's how things are.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by PrepNwa23 View Post
    People will always find a way to get what they want is the thing. Now it might not always be the safest and most practical thing but that's how things are.
    Yes they do.....and this is why illegal drugs are so popular in the US, LOL
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  25. Quote Originally Posted by rms80
    Yes they do.....and this is why illegal drugs are so popular in the US, LOL
    Popular illegal drugs no way? You must jest good sir.

  26. lol
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  27. yeah, my friend that's living in eastern europe right now said most people over there either a) dont really care about getting big like people here do (apparently people in many parts of europe dont really workout for size), or, b) just take steroids because theyre easier and cheaper for them to get than other supplements haha.

  28. wow rms, i didnt realize appnut was in charlotte. you guys should do some kind of facility tour or something and throw in a couple bottles of hghup and free test hahah so i can make the trip from greensboro

  29. Quote Originally Posted by bill86
    wow rms, i didnt realize appnut was in charlotte. you guys should do some kind of facility tour or something and throw in a couple bottles of hghup and free test hahah so i can make the trip from greensboro
    I would make the trip for that.
    By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.
    Franz Kafka

  30. Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    wow rms, i didnt realize appnut was in charlotte. you guys should do some kind of facility tour or something and throw in a couple bottles of hghup and free test hahah so i can make the trip from greensboro
    PM me if you want to set something up- it depends on our schedule- but we can def. do the facility tour- we love to show the place off
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals

  31. Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    I would make the trip for that.
    Same goes for you bro
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals
  

  
 

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