erase = 3,7-keto dhea? safety?

[bill86]

if i understand correctly, isn't erase 3,7-keto dhea? if so, i was just wondering about its safety since 3,7-keto dhea has apparently been banned from certain supplement websites. ive seen a few things regarding heart palpitations and rhythm while taking 7-keto (with many referring to 7-keto and 3,7-keto synonymously), so i was just hoping someone could clarify this for me.

the only side effect ive ever heard of is dry joints, but once people start talking about heart rhythms and palpitations i get nervous haha.

[nattydisaster]

3,7-dhea is the dumbest name for the ingredient so i refuse to say thats whats in erase.

There isnt even an oxygen at the 3 position...and if there was it would be represented as 2 ketone groups not one. Anyways

Its a metabolite of 7-keto, its not the same thing. And the mechanism of actions are drastically different

[bill86]

so what's this stuff about 3,7-keto dhea being banned or whatever? granted, i just ran across it on some random website while researching the compound, but still

[andrew732]

No. It is completely DSHEA compliant and legal.

[bill86]

oh, no, sorry, i didnt mean 'banned' in the sense that it's illegal, i meant banned from sale at places like bb.com

[roblasane]

oh, no, sorry, i didnt mean 'banned' in the sense that it's illegal, i meant banned from sale at places like bb.com

That's not a cutting edge site . They only sell the basics.

[nattydisaster]

so what's this stuff about 3,7-keto dhea being banned or whatever? granted, i just ran across it on some random website while researching the compound, but still

Its not banned anywhere that I am aware of

oh, no, sorry, i didnt mean 'banned' in the sense that it's illegal, i meant banned from sale at places like bb.com

Some ingredients are too hardcore for some retailers. Theres also a lot of politics involved

[bill86]

oh, i see. im always weary of new supplements/what i put into my body, so i like to research stuff and it kind of caught me off guard. i just couldnt figure out why they'd pull it if not for safety/health issues.

[jbryand101b]

if pes payed them a butt load of money they would put it on their site in a second.

[fightbackhxc]

7-Keto is a naturally occuring hormone. As far as hormonal products goes it about as safe as it gets.

[rms80]

3,7-dhea is the dumbest name for the ingredient so i refuse to say thats whats in erase.

There isnt even an oxygen at the 3 position...and if there was it would be represented as 2 ketone groups not one. Anyways

Its a metabolite of 7-keto, its not the same thing. And the mechanism of actions are drastically different

You are correct, 7-Keto DHEA (or 7-Oxo) and 3,7-Keto DHEA are different. 3,7-Keto DHEA a shortened alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers will not accept (we know this from experience, unfortunately). 3-Desoxy 7-Keto (Oxo) DHEA is also an alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers also will not accept, because they see the 3-Desoxy prefix and get it confused with Madol (DMT). We simply removed the "desoxy" in the nomenclature- the "3" can denote a structural alteration at the third carbon in the "A" ring, but normally said alteration is listed....We brainstormed this with our compliance attorney, and we decided that this was the best way to go. Not perfect IUPAC nomenclature, but sometimes you have to work with what you are given.

Check out Numazawa and his research on synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogues and their effects on aromatase....this gives a good understanding of structure/function, and how these analogues match up with aromatase in terms of affinity


BB.Com will not allow the compound, but to my knowledge, they are the only retailer that rejected in the US. It can't be sold in Europe, or Australia- but it isn't banned in the US....

[PrepNwa23]

You are correct, 7-Keto DHEA (or 7-Oxo) and 3,7-Keto DHEA are different. 3,7-Keto DHEA a shortened alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers will not accept (we know this from experience, unfortunately). 3-Desoxy 7-Keto (Oxo) DHEA is also an alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers also will not accept, because they see the 3-Desoxy prefix and get it confused with Madol (DMT). We simply removed the "desoxy" in the nomenclature- the "3" can denote a structural alteration at the third carbon in the "A" ring, but normally said alteration is listed....We brainstormed this with our compliance attorney, and we decided that this was the best way to go. Not perfect IUPAC nomenclature, but sometimes you have to work with what you are given.

Check out Numazawa and his research on synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogues and their effects on aromatase....this gives a good understanding of structure/function, and how these analogues match up with aromatase in terms of affinity

BB.Com will not allow the compound, but to my knowledge, they are the only retailer that rejected in the US. It can't be sold in Europe, or Australia- but it isn't banned in the US....

BB.com is pretty tight on allowing cutting edge things anymore.

[rms80]

BB.com is pretty tight on allowing cutting edge things anymore.

Yes they are- they were bought out by Liberty Media in 2009, and that kind of changed a lot of stuff....

[bill86]

why so restrictive with 'cutting edge things'? just because there isnt enough known about the products or something?

[JudoJosh]

You are correct, 7-Keto DHEA (or 7-Oxo) and 3,7-Keto DHEA are different. 3,7-Keto DHEA a shortened alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers will not accept (we know this from experience, unfortunately). 3-Desoxy 7-Keto (Oxo) DHEA is also an alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers also will not accept, because they see the 3-Desoxy prefix and get it confused with Madol (DMT). We simply removed the "desoxy" in the nomenclature- the "3" can denote a structural alteration at the third carbon in the "A" ring, but normally said alteration is listed....We brainstormed this with our compliance attorney, and we decided that this was the best way to go. Not perfect IUPAC nomenclature, but sometimes you have to work with what you are given.

Check out Numazawa and his research on synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogues and their effects on aromatase....this gives a good understanding of structure/function, and how these analogues match up with aromatase in terms of affinity


BB.Com will not allow the compound, but to my knowledge, they are the only retailer that rejected in the US. It can't be sold in Europe, or Australia- but it isn't banned in the US....

Think other online retailers will follow suit?

[rms80]

why so restrictive with 'cutting edge things'? just because there isnt enough known about the products or something?

"Cutting edge" normally (but not always) equals non-DSHEA Compliant in our industry- compliance teams normally aren't a big fan of these type ingredients, because they can open the retailer up to enforcement (FDA) and/or civil action- it is more a CYA-type move than anything else- think about it this way: would you rather do business having to always look over your shoulder, or knowing that you have all of your legal bases covered and can fully and shamelessly promote your business?

Plus, if you look at market research in the DS industry (Nielsen 2010-2011), "cutting edge"/"taboo" ingredients tend to be in the lowest percentile when it comes to percentage of overall sales for the industry- they are somewhat popular, but much less popular than other categories like RTDs, Bars, Protein, etc.- but I will say that the better margins are in the "cutting edge" products than some of the other commoditized staples- plus they are more fun to research and develop, source, and mfr., lol

[Jonbero]

You are correct, 7-Keto DHEA (or 7-Oxo) and 3,7-Keto DHEA are different. 3,7-Keto DHEA a shortened alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers will not accept (we know this from experience, unfortunately). 3-Desoxy 7-Keto (Oxo) DHEA is also an alternative nomenclature for Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione, which compliance at most major retailers also will not accept, because they see the 3-Desoxy prefix and get it confused with Madol (DMT). We simply removed the "desoxy" in the nomenclature- the "3" can denote a structural alteration at the third carbon in the "A" ring, but normally said alteration is listed....We brainstormed this with our compliance attorney, and we decided that this was the best way to go. Not perfect IUPAC nomenclature, but sometimes you have to work with what you are given.

Check out Numazawa and his research on synthesis of androst-5-en-7-ones and androsta-3,5-dien-7-ones and their related 7-deoxy analogues and their effects on aromatase....this gives a good understanding of structure/function, and how these analogues match up with aromatase in terms of affinity


BB.Com will not allow the compound, but to my knowledge, they are the only retailer that rejected in the US. It can't be sold in Europe, or Australia- but it isn't banned in the US....

It is sold in the UK at several online supplement stores. I think I can't say names here but google is your friend if you want to know. I know for fact that the compound in PES Erase is not banned in Finland or UK, and I'm pretty sure that's the case with other EU countries as well.

[rms80]

It is sold in the UK at several online supplement stores. I think I can't say names here but google is your friend if you want to know. I know for fact that the compound in PES Erase is not banned in Finland or UK, and I'm pretty sure that's the case with other EU countries as well.

Interesting- DHEA and DHEA derivatives are banned in most of the EU (Italy, Belgium, Holland, Spain, etc.)- but the UK tends to be a little more lenient with DS than most of the other EU countries. I have done a bunch of compliance work to get products approved in several of these different countries, and it is amazing to me how much the rules and regulations differ from sovereign to sovereign.....

[OrganicShadow]

Interesting- DHEA and DHEA derivatives are banned in most of the EU (Italy, Belgium, Holland, Spain, etc.)- but the UK tends to be a little more lenient with DS than most of the other EU countries. I have done a bunch of compliance work to get products approved in several of these different countries, and it is amazing to me how much the rules and regulations differ from sovereign to sovereign.....

Learn something new every day.

Yeah BB.com won't carry anything that's in the least bit "cutting edge" and play it safe in most manners. Ive known the UK to be more lenient with what they allow while Australia seems to ban everything. Thanks for the in depth, Dirk. Unless you know something about IUPAC I think the nomenclature can leave people scratching heads about what's what. Even then I've gotten confused.

[rms80]

Think other online retailers will follow suit?

Probably not, unless they absolutely have to- I still see a lot of guys still selling prohormones, LOL