Negative side effects of workout supps

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by wtmdcg91

    I go to a Alternative Medicine doctor and have Saliva and blood spot work to see how things look with my hormones and the rest!!
    Would I just google alternative medicine to find a doc like that? I know it sounds like a dumb question but I've called several doctors in my area and they all seem confused about what I'm testing for and then tell me they don't do those kind of tests.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    I'm a little confused by this statement. I'm guessing that you're not saying casein doesn't sound like an allergen, because you just stated that it frequently is.

    "An allergen is any substance that can cause an allergy. In technical terms, an allergen is an antigen capable of stimulating a type-I hypersensitivity..."
    -wikipedia 'allergen' page
    I mean this specific case. Casein is an allergen and I did not mean to imply that it is not.

    I'm guessing you mean alpha-2-adrenergic receptors? These are present throughout many tissues, not just adipocytes (throughout the central nervous system, peripheral nervous system, cardiovascular system etc.).

    Not trying to flame man, i'm just hear to improve my own knowledge base and spread what little I already know, but if you're going to drop concrete assertions like that it's good to double check that you're correct or at least on the right track, otherwise you might be leading someone down the wrong path. Wikipedia and pubmed are our friends .
    Bad example, but you get the scenario. Those are the kinds of receptors that have down regulation.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by bomcgraw View Post
    Would I just google alternative medicine to find a doc like that? I know it sounds like a dumb question but I've called several doctors in my area and they all seem confused about what I'm testing for and then tell me they don't do those kind of tests.
    Is hard to find one. The best place is go to ZRT labs.com and go under finding a provider you put your state and zip code to see if there are any or where is the closest one for you . ZRT Laboratory are the biggest lab in USA for that kinda of testing . They should be able to give you some idea where to locate one near you!! Hope this helps....

  4. Quote Originally Posted by wtmdcg91

    Is hard to find one. The best place is go to ZRT labs.com and go under finding a provider you put your state and zip code to see if there are any or where is the closest one for you . ZRT Laboratory are the biggest lab in USA for that kinda of testing . They should be able to give you some idea where to locate one near you!! Hope this helps....
    Thanks a ton!

  5. Quote Originally Posted by bomcgraw View Post
    Would I just google alternative medicine to find a doc like that? I know it sounds like a dumb question but I've called several doctors in my area and they all seem confused about what I'm testing for and then tell me they don't do those kind of tests.
    Another way to go about it is to look up Naturopathic Doctor's (ND's) and Doctor's of Osteopathy (DO's) in your area on google or whatever doctor directory pops up first on google.

    Either way I'd highly suggest it. My personal preference is DO's, ND's can be kinda scammy with trying to push certain supplement brands and what not on you. But, I'm highly biased, as I'm getting ready to apply for DO school soon.
    My parents created my body, in which I create my mind. I will honor them, by developing both to their utmost potential.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by mightyconan View Post
    Stop everything? Why should he stop everything? Alot of the stuff he's taking seems extremely healthy. Fish oils, flax seed oil, are probably some of the healthiest things you can possibly take. The only thing i see that might be a concern is taking that with the prescription blood thinner. Cause fish oils do thin the blood a bit. But to stop taking a good multivitamin or vit. D is downright stupid. Those are some very healthy supps. to be taking. Drs. in general, are known to be against any and all supplements. They have always been this way. I'm not saying all drs. but a vast majority of them are. I don't see any supplements that you're taking that could possibly cause any problems. Aside from the ephedrine, which can raise blood pressure. Aside from that, thats all I see.

    Take everything your dr. tells you about supplements with a grain of salt. They know extremely little about that topic.
    Bro are you refering to my post? If so, where did I say "stop everything"? My bad, I was under the impression that a clean, whole food diet was a good supplement! lol.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Fat cell receptors (e.g. alpha 2).
    Those are adrenoreceptors.
    And not every receptor of an adipocyte have some downregulation.

  8. There is some really good advice here. I came to realization that almost everything I thought I knew was wrong... and I was forced to revisit and reprocess WHY I chose to use certain supplements at certain times. I asked myself:

    1. What did I wish to accomplish by adding this supplement?
    2. What was stopping me or slowing me from achieving this without the supplement?
    3. What was the science on the supplement?
    4. What was the feedback on the supplement?
    5. Was the proportion of cost: risk: benefit REALLY worth it in the end?

    Most of the time, looking back at my choices, my answers were almost all the same.

    1. What did I wish to accomplish by adding this supplement?
    a) I wanted to gain some strength, more size, and definitely eliminate more fat
    2. What was stopping me or slowing me from achieving this without the supplement?
    a) Nothing was stopping me, except the fear of having to eat better, cook more, and spend more time and effort
    3. What was the science on the supplement?
    a) It looked like a well thought out write-up and it had some facts that were based on science, but nothing conclusive
    4. What was the feedback on the supplement?
    a) Good enough for me to burn money on
    5. Was the proportion of cost: risk: benefit REALLY worth it in the end?
    a) Over the course of a decade I have spent more money on supplements than I have on rent and utilities for places I have lived. I spent more money every year than on a year's worth of car insurance, car maintenence, gasoline (yearly), and performance upgrades per year. I can say that the stimulants and prohormone and designer steroids on the market effed me up pretty badly, for certain. I can say that the largest benefit (and maybe the only) is that I learned that most supplements will not make much of a positive change in your quality of life or quality of lifting. The biggest benefit was honestly learning that there is not many other benefits except for knowing that there aren't much benefits, if that makes sense. After all was said and done, there are only a few supplements that really 'do it' for me.

    Hopefully that helped a little. Don't dwell in your mistakes. Embrace failure. Without knowing failure, there would be no way to know success. Coincidentia oppositorum - Latin for coincidence of the opposites - hot needs cold to exist, etc. Now I'm going on a tangent.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by mightyconan View Post
    Stop everything? Why should he stop everything? Alot of the stuff he's taking seems extremely healthy. Fish oils, flax seed oil, are probably some of the healthiest things you can possibly take. The only thing i see that might be a concern is taking that with the prescription blood thinner. Cause fish oils do thin the blood a bit. But to stop taking a good multivitamin or vit. D is downright stupid. Those are some very healthy supps. to be taking. Drs. in general, are known to be against any and all supplements. They have always been this way. I'm not saying all drs. but a vast majority of them are. I don't see any supplements that you're taking that could possibly cause any problems. Aside from the ephedrine, which can raise blood pressure. Aside from that, thats all I see.

    Take everything your dr. tells you about supplements with a grain of salt. They know extremely little about that topic.
    Yes, most doctors in the USA don't know much at all about medicine, let alone supplements. As a matter of fact, most medical professionals I have encountered do NOT know much about medicine. I had an argument with a nurse practioner about benzodiazepine withdrawal. The NP said that Librium is protocol for benzodiazepine withdrawal, so I asked why would you use a benzodiazepine for benzodiazepine withdrawal (aside from switching to one with a longer half-life) and the NP said that Librium isn't a benzo. I find it interesting that Librium is the first benzodiazepine ever to be created.

    On the other topic, I do think that dropping everything is a good idea for at least a little while. I was always afraid to do it, but each time I did it was the best thing ever. Also, I got on the boat a little late for the multivitamin sham and I feel much better using seperate vitamins (a/c/e/d) and chelated minerals than I ever did using any multivitamin.

    Plus, as far as dropping supplements that would otherwise be considered as vital... We can achieve a surplus of vital nutrients from whole foods. For the month of taking a break from supplements, if one were to go to a good farmers market and buy a bit more at the butcher, I am sure that some extra vegetables (nice colorful array) and steak will pack on more density and provide more clean energy than whatever you can give in a pill, powder, or liquid form.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Buffspartan View Post
    I am a 20 year old amateur bodybuilder who has been at the game roughly 8 months. I take an array of supplements, both for bodybuilding, and some for everyday health. My doctors have been flipping out lately every time I mention any of them. Between my GP, my nephrologist and my endocrinologist I never hear the end of it. Will using workout supps negatively effect me in the long term?? Here is a list of supps and prescription meds I am using or have used recently. Docs mostly afraid of kidney stress/damage

    Sunwarrior warrior blend plant protein (Post)
    Hemavol (Pre)
    PurpleWraath (Intra)
    Karbolyn (Pre and Post)
    APE (used recently)
    Blox (Used recently)
    Fish oil (daily)
    Flax oil (daily)
    Multi (daily)
    Probiotics (daily)
    B12 (occasionally)
    Acetyl L Carnitine (twice daily)
    Glutamine (Post)
    Milk thistle (twice daily)
    Hear All (twice daily)
    D3 (daily, low vitamin d)
    Ephedrine HCL (multiple times per week)
    Somotropin hGH (prescription) daily
    Arixtra (prescription blood thinner) daily
    Im going to give u the best advice u will probably use for doctor-patient relations that will work best for you & all of us who use these kinda supplements, & that is, NEVER SAY UR USING SUPPLEMENTS & DENY IT IF THEY ASK!!! Never tell a doc ur using any for of supplements such as creatine, ephedrine, test boosters, herbals, etc, because they will all say that they have negative effects, can do u harm, & they will be quick to blame whatevers wrong with u on the supps!!! I learned this a long time ago & have done this for years as ive been in the game for over a decade & am 35yrs old now.

    On the other hand, (playing devils advocate), if ur having issues like high blood pressure, bad cholesterol, high liver enzymes, etc, & ur using ephedrine or test regularly, then u need to be smart enough to know the side effects of these supps & back the dosage down or take a break from it.

    Oh & if u want a doc to confide in, then u need to find a sports/athletic doc like the ones used exclusively in pro sports. Only problem is that ur insurance may not cover it & they are expensive as hell!! At the age of 20 & with the fact that ur workin out to get bigger/stronger, i wouldn't go this route & would just stick to keepin quiet, make it known that u excersise alot, & that u lead a healthy lifestyle!! If anything just tell em u only take a multi vit, omegas, & d-3. Remember this as well, most doctors dont know much about sports supplements, so there confusion clouts there judgement.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by SeniorXJ View Post
    Im going to give u the best advice u will probably use for doctor-patient relations that will work best for you & all of us who use these kinda supplements, & that is, NEVER SAY UR USING SUPPLEMENTS & DENY IT IF THEY ASK!!! Never tell a doc ur using any for of supplements such as creatine, ephedrine, test boosters, herbals, etc, because they will all say that they have negative effects, can do u harm, & they will be quick to blame whatevers wrong with u on the supps!!! I learned this a long time ago & have done this for years as ive been in the game for over a decade & am 35yrs old now.

    On the other hand, (playing devils advocate), if ur having issues like high blood pressure, bad cholesterol, high liver enzymes, etc, & ur using ephedrine or test regularly, then u need to be smart enough to know the side effects of these supps & back the dosage down or take a break from it.

    Oh & if u want a doc to confide in, then u need to find a sports/athletic doc like the ones used exclusively in pro sports. Only problem is that ur insurance may not cover it & they are expensive as hell!! At the age of 20 & with the fact that ur workin out to get bigger/stronger, i wouldn't go this route & would just stick to keepin quiet, make it known that u excersise alot, & that u lead a healthy lifestyle!! If anything just tell em u only take a multi vit, omegas, & d-3. Remember this as well, most doctors dont know much about sports supplements, so there confusion clouts there judgement.
    IMO they know that better than 98% of the internet guys on the forum.
    If you want to ask them, ask them.
  12. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffspartan View Post
    Well I go by the philosophy where the body eventually adapts to what it consumes so you need to rotate your foods and supps so as not to develop a possible temporary sensitivity to something.
    Food rotating? Please back this up with science. I would love to know more.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Buffspartan View Post
    Well I go by the philosophy where the body eventually adapts to what it consumes so you need to rotate your foods and supps so as not to develop a possible temporary sensitivity to something.
    that is not the case with nutrients its not like when you smoke to much weed and your builds up you don't build a tolerance to protien infact you should drop the protien shakes and karbolyn all together and try to meet your macros with whole foods the only people that really benefit from the super high gi processed carbs like karbolyn/ vitargo or waxi maize are those that use insulin. I would also drop the blox for bcaas cause blox is useless overpriced garbage as is almost everything bpi makes. save your money and buy some steak and ****.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    Food rotating? Please back this up with science. I would love to know more.
    Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    I don't know if OP had this in mind, but he's not entirely wrong. Occasionally a person can develop an allergy to a food if consumed on a regular basis and/or in excess and/or for an extended amount of time. It has to do with certain antigens contained in the said food that can eventually promote an over production of Immunoglobulin (a kind of receptor) for the said antigen. Even though it's a system designed to target pathogens, our body does this all the time for things that are totally lacking any reasonable pathogenic potential. The 'allergic reaction' can be on a low enough level that the affected individual would never be aware of it unless they had a food allergy test done, but it does have negative implications on overall health -> inflammation etc.

    I've played with this myself. My first allergy food test I had a 'Moderately severe' reaction to pinto beans, pineapple, and eggs (which had all been staples in my diet for sometime) after several months of cutting those out, I had the test again and the allergies had totally subsided, but new ones had popped up lol. It's the kind of thing that if you're going to really worry about, you gotta be totally on top of it, but just going through basic rotations like OP mentioned doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.
    I addressed this.

    My parents created my body, in which I create my mind. I will honor them, by developing both to their utmost potential.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Boatcop1 View Post
    QFT!!!

    Bro I am going to be 35 next month. I have been training for 18 years and I still dont have it all figured out. I used to trust and depend on my supps! You name it and I've done it and more than likely abused too! For the past 8 months I have been "almost" supplement free. The only thing i take is Cellucor C4 pre workout, Bulk BCAA's and cheap ass Walmart whey protien and I am arguably in the best shape ever! I even stopped taking multi's just see if there was a difference and I am yet to experience any drawback. What's my secret? Clean food! I eat a well balanced diet and a good pro/car/fat ratio of about 200/140/50 grams respectively. My abbs have abbs now and I'm still slinging some heavy weight! You'll hear it alot that supps are useless and just to eat. I dont agree. There is a place for supplementation but at your age get your diet right and train with intensity. Good luck
    Very solid post bro. Everything comes down to eating right and healthy and moderation IMO. If you have the discipline to do that you should be fine.

  16. The food/supp rotating is actually very important for proper health/ inflammation response, etc, someone already did confirm this as being true on page 2 and w hat he said was actually perfectly said. Also to respond to casein being a common allergan, in actuality nearly 50% of Americans have some sort of an allergy to casein, some not really noticable and some much more severe. In fact, most people with milk allergies are not allergic to whey, only to casein. Finally, NDs actually don't try to push a ton of supplements on you, mine is in fact trying to limit my supplements, however, unlike my doctors, he has nothing against supps

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Buffspartan View Post
    The food/supp rotating is actually very important for proper health/ inflammation response, etc, someone already did confirm this as being true on page 2 and w hat he said was actually perfectly said. Also to respond to casein being a common allergan, in actuality nearly 50% of Americans have some sort of an allergy to casein, some not really noticable and some much more severe. In fact, most people with milk allergies are not allergic to whey, only to casein. Finally, NDs actually don't try to push a ton of supplements on you, mine is in fact trying to limit my supplements, however, unlike my doctors, he has nothing against supps
    You don't really understand the inflammatory and PRAL response. It's not about rotating foods after extended periods of time; it's about balancing alkalinic and acidic foods. Also, most of the highly acidic, hence inflammatory, foods are grains, not animal proteins (e.g. brown rice, oats, etc.).
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  18. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You don't really understand the inflammatory and PRAL response. It's not about rotating foods after extended periods of time; it's about balancing alkalinic and acidic foods. Also, most of the highly acidic, hence inflammatory, foods are grains, not animal proteins (e.g. brown rice, oats, etc.).
    lol wut

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You don't really understand the inflammatory and PRAL response...it's about balancing alkalinic and acidic foods. Also, most of the highly acidic, hence inflammatory, foods are grains, not animal proteins (e.g. brown rice, oats, etc.).
    Yes, grains do tend to be inflammatory, but to say that animal proteins are not inflammatory is ridiculous, and completely wrong. In fact, meat itself tends to average much higher on the PRAL scale than grains.

    Exhibit A
    http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/bases.htm

    By this account, the oats and b​rown rice you mentioned earlier come in at a whopping 12.5 and 10.7, the highest of the grains category and on average about twice as high as the other listed foods of that category.

    To be fair, let's look at the two highest rated foods in the animal products. We have parmesan cheese at 34.2 and processed cheese at 28.7, about 3x that of the highest rated grains.

    B
    http://www.essense-of-life.com/moreinfo/foodcharts.htm
    C
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/30...t-in-the-body/
    D
    http://www.energiseforlife.com/acid-...food-chart.pdf

    They all have generally the same trend, that meats and dairy tend to be more acidic than grains.

    Regardless of what dogmas you live by, you should really start fact checking them before you try to correct or give people advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    It's not about rotating foods after extended periods of time;
    I addressed the legitimacy of periodically rotating staples of your diet on page two, in response to an earlier post of yours. I am not prepared to claim that it is the factor or even a primary factor, but it is absolutely a factor in chronic inflammation and one's overall health. If you contain some knowledge I or anyone else appears to be lacking on the subject, then please, lay it out on the table. But PLEASE, take the five minutes to do some fact checking before you post any more erroneous claims.
    My parents created my body, in which I create my mind. I will honor them, by developing both to their utmost potential.

  20. Actually because of my kidney disease and I have been around the inflammatory subject for years. I know all about the acid/alkaline thing, however. I also know that when they say everything in moderation, its true. If you eat too much of a single food for an extended period of time, your body can develop a temporary sensitivity/slight nearly unnoticed allergy. It can affect overall health and actually make it so that your body is less efficient at metabolising a particular group of foods. Also the season can also affect what you eat. During the spring time you should avoid any foods that may have or produce yeasts and molds and fermentation including melons, vinegar, apples, nuts, breads with yeast, etc. And yes, grains and meats can be inflammatory but moreso red meats and wheat-type grains including wheat, tritical, kasha, and spelt. Poultry and other whole grains are more neutral or slightly inflammatory. The only meat that is actually non-inflammatory is in fact bison/buffalo meat. But yes to respond to above, obviously red meat is going to be more inflammatory than any grains.

  21. How do I rep up someone if I'm doing this on a cell phone??

  22. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    Yes, grains do tend to be inflammatory, but to say that animal proteins are not inflammatory is ridiculous, and completely wrong. In fact, meat itself tends to average much higher on the PRAL scale than grains.

    Exhibit A
    http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/bases.htm

    By this account, the oats and b​rown rice you mentioned earlier come in at a whopping 12.5 and 10.7, the highest of the grains category and on average about twice as high as the other listed foods of that category.

    To be fair, let's look at the two highest rated foods in the animal products. We have parmesan cheese at 34.2 and processed cheese at 28.7, about 3x that of the highest rated grains.

    B
    http://www.essense-of-life.com/moreinfo/foodcharts.htm
    C
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/30...t-in-the-body/
    D
    http://www.energiseforlife.com/acid-...food-chart.pdf

    They all have generally the same trend, that meats and dairy tend to be more acidic than grains.

    Regardless of what dogmas you live by, you should really start fact checking them before you try to correct or give people advice.



    I addressed the legitimacy of periodically rotating staples of your diet on page two, in response to an earlier post of yours. I am not prepared to claim that it is the factor or even a primary factor, but it is absolutely a factor in chronic inflammation and one's overall health. If you contain some knowledge I or anyone else appears to be lacking on the subject, then please, lay it out on the table. But PLEASE, take the five minutes to do some fact checking before you post any more erroneous claims.
    Did I say that protein was not acidic? No, I didn't. Protein in and of itself is the highest producer of renal acid load. That's why it is the first and largest component of the PRAL formula. The cheese and grains argument is retarded; how often do you eat 100g of either of those is a sitting much less throughout the day like brown rice and oats. I won't even mention the lectins and phytic acid part of the inflammation equation that you also have to counter by eating either of those grains. Don't bring up fact checking when you not only twisted my words, but also left out a very important part of the issue, which is inflammatory proteins such as lectin.

    Your legitimacy is based off of your personal experience and n=1 means nothing. Food choice is the primary factor for low-grade, chronic inflammation. This is the reason that it is common for those with auto-immune disorders to switch to Paleo-style eating: to avoid the chronic inflammation.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  23. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Did I say that protein was not acidic? No, I didn't. Protein in and of itself is the highest producer of renal acid load. That's why it is the first and largest component of the PRAL formula. The cheese and grains argument is retarded; how often do you eat 100g of either of those is a sitting much less throughout the day like brown rice and oats. I won't even mention the lectins and phytic acid part of the inflammation equation that you also have to counter by eating either of those grains. Don't bring up fact checking when you not only twisted my words, but also left out a very important part of the issue, which is inflammatory proteins such as lectin.

    Your legitimacy is based off of your personal experience and n=1 means nothing. Food choice is the primary factor for low-grade, chronic inflammation. This is the reason that it is common for those with auto-immune disorders to switch to Paleo-style eating: to avoid the chronic inflammation.
    Let's break this down.

    Statement #1
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Did I say that protein was not acidic? No, I didn't.
    Ok, back it up a bit..
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    ...Also, most of the highly acidic, hence inflammatory, foods are grains, not animal proteins (e.g. brown rice, oats, etc.).


    ...Huh...

    No, you did not specifically say protein was not acidic, however, I never made the claim that you had said anything of the sort. You did say that animal protein was not "most of the highly acidic", and while I couldn't find much on animal protein specifically, I did provide information that would lead one to believe that whole animal products are much much more acidic than you insinuated.

    Statement #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    The cheese and grains argument is retarded; how often do you eat 100g of either of those is a sitting much less throughout the day like brown rice and oats.
    I too would be willing to bet that it is much more common to eat larger portions of grains than cheese, although these portions will be different for every individual and diet, and so I find it to be a fairly invalid point to argue. The fact in question was which food source provided the higher PRAL score, you claimed it to be grains in general over animal protein. I corrected you by providing information on the topic.

    Statement #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I won't even mention the lectins and phytic acid part of the inflammation equation that you also have to counter by eating either of those grains. Don't bring up fact checking when you not only twisted my words, but also left out a very important part of the issue, which is inflammatory proteins such as lectin.
    Not gonna mention it eh? Now, it's hard to tell exactly what your goal in stating this is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I have been informed, the negative implications of Lectins and phytic acid have little to do with our discussion of acidity and determined PRAL value, but more to do with their unrelated biological actions. Being that these are just two classes of many compounds found in a grain, and they do not have any relevance to our previous discussion, it is really quite a random thing to 'not mention', and entering a discussion where we widen the scope to that degree will inevitably result in an endless plant vs. animal diet war (by no means related to this discussion). So, if you really want to start another war about plant versus animal based diets, then I'm game, I have plenty of ammo for either side, but start a new thread and let's duke it out over there.

    Statement #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Your legitimacy is based off of your personal experience and n=1 means nothing.
    I believe this is in regards to the infamous post of page 2? To correct your understanding, I used my personal experience as a real world example of the Immunological mechanism I was discussing. And yes, Immunology=real.

    and Numero Cinco
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Food choice is the primary factor for low-grade, chronic inflammation.
    This has basically been my point all along...
    My parents created my body, in which I create my mind. I will honor them, by developing both to their utmost potential.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    Let's break this down.

    Statement #1

    Ok, back it up a bit..


    ...Huh...

    No, you did not specifically say protein was not acidic, however, I never made the claim that you had said anything of the sort. You did say that animal protein was not "most of the highly acidic", and while I couldn't find much on animal protein specifically, I did provide information that would lead one to believe that whole animal products are much much more acidic than you insinuated.

    Again, you're twisting my words to fit your argument. Of the commonly recommended "healthy" foods, oats and brown rice have the highest PRAL of 10.7 and 12.5, respectively, for 100g of each. Compared to the common animal protein sources like chicken breast and lean beef, which have a score of 8.7 and 7.8, respectively, the grains are much higher. I did not say that animal protein is not acidic and I quoted oats and brown rice for the fact that they are highly recommended, yet have a very high renal load. What information did you post that exactly would lead one to believe that animal protein is more acidic? By quoting the PRAL of parmesan and processed cheese?

    Statement #2


    I too would be willing to bet that it is much more common to eat larger portions of grains than cheese, although these portions will be different for every individual and diet, and so I find it to be a fairly invalid point to argue. The fact in question was which food source provided the higher PRAL score, you claimed it to be grains in general over animal protein. I corrected you by providing information on the topic.

    Word twisting once more. Do you know how large of a portion that 100g of parmesan cheese is? 40 tsp, which is ~13 Tbsp. That's nearly 1/2 of a standard container of parmesan. That's what made your example irrelevant.

    Statement #3


    Not gonna mention it eh? Now, it's hard to tell exactly what your goal in stating this is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I have been informed, the negative implications of Lectins and phytic acid have little to do with our discussion of acidity and determined PRAL value, but more to do with their unrelated biological actions. Being that these are just two classes of many compounds found in a grain, and they do not have any relevance to our previous discussion, it is really quite a random thing to 'not mention', and entering a discussion where we widen the scope to that degree will inevitably result in an endless plant vs. animal diet war (by no means related to this discussion). So, if you really want to start another war about plant versus animal based diets, then I'm game, I have plenty of ammo for either side, but start a new thread and let's duke it out over there.

    Actually, and this was you that brought it up, the overall topic was inflammation and food allergies. Guess what? Lectins and phytic acid are a big part of that due to their interference with endothelial cell regeneration and anti-nutrient properties. PRAL and metabolic acidosis are not the only factors in the inflammatory process. It is a portion of it, but only a piece of the puzzle. Hell, the PRAL of wheat bread is only slightly acidic, but the gluten and gliadin within it is inherently inflammatory to the intestinal cells (increased TNF-alpha production; PMID: 20514534)

    Statement #4


    I believe this is in regards to the infamous post of page 2? To correct your understanding, I used my personal experience as a real world example of the Immunological mechanism I was discussing. And yes, Immunology=real.

    Did I say anything that would lead anyone to believe immunology is not a "real" field of science?

    and Numero Cinco


    This has basically been my point all along...
    Rebuttal in bold.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  25. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Rebuttal in bold.


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    ^^^rodja

  26. so, why are you taking script HGH (nutropin)? I'm sorry if I'm making you re-type your self, my attention span is not long enough to read a 55 posts.
    AM sucks ass. find me on ASF or IMF.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by 3utcher View Post
    IMO they know that better than 98% of the internet guys on the forum.
    If you want to ask them, ask them.
    Not sure what u ment by that...

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Slappy244 View Post
    so, why are you taking script HGH (nutropin)? I'm sorry if I'm making you re-type your self, my attention span is not long enough to read a 55 posts.
    Short stature from 17 years of glucocorticosteroids

  29. Quote Originally Posted by bomcgraw View Post
    Thanks a ton!
    Yeah no problem ! I know you get some answers now ... sometimes getting the right lead stops the chase .
    Good luck keep me posted !

  30. Jesus Christ....I got much dumber reading this thread
  •   

      
     

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