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Tmg/betaine

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    Tmg/betaine


    Any thoughts on this? I've been taking it for about 60 days...
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    My doctoral dissertation is investigating the effects of betaine on strength, power, and body composition in trained men. I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about betaine with the exception of the outcome of the study (its still going on) about betaine.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    My doctoral dissertation is investigating the effects of betaine on strength, power, and body composition in trained men. I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about betaine with the exception of the outcome of the study (its still going on) about betaine.

    Br
    When will the study be finished?
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    Data is mixed, but studies published in the JISSN over the past 2 years show ergogenic effects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uvawahoowa View Post
    When will the study be finished?
    Data collection will be completed in the next 2 weeks (it is a 6 week trial period), then statistical analysis and dicussion of results will be completed by mid July.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Data is mixed, but studies published in the JISSN over the past 2 years show ergogenic effects.
    Definitely conflicting results with regards to strength and power gains. Only 1-2 studies looking at its effects on body comp in humans, and neither of those were on trained subjects or employed exercise.

    Results from animal studies, especially in pigs, shows fantastic results: increased lean mass, decreased fat mass, improved nutrient partitioning, down regulation in lipogenic enzymes/genes, upregulation of some anabolic enzymes, increased insulin and IGF1 signalling, and increased GH secretion.

    There is also one human study that shows betaine increases GH...I'm not sure if it is published yet though.

    Br
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    How long were / are the subjects in the study taking tmg/betaine?

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    Zir what dose are you using in the research you are involved with?
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    2.5 g per day for 6 weeks. Training is standardized, and is an NLP hypertrophy based program. Other sport supplements are prohibited. Diet isn't standardized, but all subjects have been given nutrition counseling based on 3 day dietary logs to ensure adequate protein and caloric intake.

    Br
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    Seeing how it's cheap it would be worth to keep taking

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    So i only dose on days I work out 2grm pre and 2 post.. What do you recommend??

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasfinest2 View Post
    So i only dose on days I work out 2grm pre and 2 post.. What do you recommend??

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    Betaine works in part by building up in the tissues, so you should take it every day. It isn't really going to have any significant affects (compared to a stimulant, or post-workout supplement) if taken pre,post, etc. My subjects are taking 1.25g twice per day at breakfast and dinner. Consuming it with food doesn't affect absorbance.

    Br
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    Subbed for more info
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    Ty.. Proper dosing is half the battle.. So 1grm morning and 1grams evening.? Would this be sufficient or 2 grms morning 1 gray evening to ensure proper quantity? In your opinion?

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    Good question. One that I really can't answer absolutely at this time.

    All the research studies have been done at around 2 to 2.5 grams. In pigs, the equated amount was about 3g per day in a 50 kg animal...so, you could always go with 3g per day. The side effects, which at this time are known to be GI distress, really don't set in until around 10g per day, and none were reported in clinical subjects using around 5g per day. So, if cost is not an issue, I don't see a problem with it.

    Br
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    Combo of Betaine/Agmatine/DAA and ERase Pro was killer andsurprised the hell out of me...

    Add some creatine in the Mix, you have a very affordablestack that is surprisingly effective.
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    I find it fairly cheap I use now sports tmg think ill start dosing 4 grms a day 2 morning and 2 evening.. See how that works thanks for all your help ill rep you when I get on my lap top! Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasfinest2
    I find it fairly cheap I use now sports tmg think ill start dosing 4 grms a day 2 morning and 2 evening.. See how that works thanks for all your help ill rep you when I get on my lap top! Cheers

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    Is tmg a specific form of betaine or would any betaine supp be the same?
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    n-n-n-methyl-glycine (TMG) is the chemical name for betaine. TMG was discovered in the late 1800's in sugar beets and named betaine.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    n-n-n-methyl-glycine (TMG) is the chemical name for betaine. TMG was discovered in the late 1800's in sugar beets and named betaine.

    Br
    Got it, thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    My doctoral dissertation is investigating the effects of betaine on strength, power, and body composition in trained men. I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about betaine with the exception of the outcome of the study (its still going on) about betaine.

    Br
    Is it true that betaine helps your body produce its own source of creatine
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasfinest2 View Post
    Is it true that betaine helps your body produce its own source of creatine
    Excellent question. We should preface this by saying that your body does already produce creatine.

    In simple terms, it goes like this:

    Guanidinoacetate is formed in the kidneys form glycine and arginine. GAA is then transported to the liver, where it is methylated (a methyl group is removed from S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) )to form creatine. The creatine is then released into the blood and taken up by muscles.

    Betaine contains 3 methyl groups (hence the n-n-n-glycine). In methylation metabolism, betaine donates a methyl group (becoming dimethylglycine: DMG) to methionine forming SAM.

    So, by increasing SAM it was thought that betaine may improve creatine biosynthesis leading to additional creatine in the muscles. This was true in animals; however, in a recent study it was found not to happen in humans. Now, these humans were untrained and not given an exercise program, so additional creatine synthesis may not have been needed. It would be interesting to see if betaine improves creatine in athletes who train using the CP system (i.e.: heavy weight training, short sprints with full recovery).

    That said, increasing methylation potential may improve hypertrophy and strength in a number of other ways that I mentioned as benefits to betaine.

    Br

    EDIT: I just emailed the author of the study cited above to ask his thoughts on the hypothesis that because creatine demand and storage capacities are increased in resistance training athletes, if the results would be different with a trained population.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED

    Excellent question. We should preface this by saying that your body does already produce creatine.

    In simple terms, it goes like this:

    Guanidinoacetate is formed in the kidneys form glycine and arginine. GAA is then transported to the liver, where it is methylated (a methyl group is removed from S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) )to form creatine. The creatine is then released into the blood and taken up by muscles.

    Betaine contains 3 methyl groups (hence the n-n-n-glycine). In methylation metabolism, betaine donates a methyl group (becoming dimethylglycine: DMG) to methionine forming SAM.

    So, by increasing SAM it was thought that betaine may improve creatine biosynthesis leading to additional creatine in the muscles. This was true in animals; however, in a recent study it was found not to happen in humans. Now, these humans were untrained and not given an exercise program, so additional creatine synthesis may not have been needed. It would be interesting to see if betaine improves creatine in athletes who train using the CP system (i.e.: heavy weight training, short sprints with full recovery).

    That said, increasing methylation potential may improve hypertrophy and strength in a number of other ways that I mentioned as benefits to betaine.

    Br
    Sounds like I should be taking this
    Thank Br
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    I'm going to continue use just changing to a more appropriate dosing! This is what this forum is all about learning and teaching! Thanks man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    My doctoral dissertation is investigating the effects of betaine on strength, power, and body composition in trained men. I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about betaine with the exception of the outcome of the study (its still going on) about betaine.

    Br
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    TMG (betaine) is an excellent add-on to DAA to increase its effectiveness because it can serve as a methyl donor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhulk View Post
    TMG (betaine) is an excellent add-on to DAA to increase its effectiveness because it can serve as a methyl donor.
    hm.. use it everyday for liver health.. but that is good to no if its true!
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    Just a quick update with regards to the betaine study.

    We saw some pretty impressive improvements in body composition and increases in upper arm muscle mass and improved upper body training volume with betaine.

    I'm presenting the dissertation study Tuesday August 21st (9:30 am) at Springfield College (MA) if anyone is interested in getting more info or a quick tour of the facilities.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I'm presenting the dissertation study Tuesday August 21st (9:30 am) at Springfield College (MA) if anyone is interested in getting more info or a quick tour of the facilities.
    Br
    Will your dissertation be put online after you are finished? At the university where I graduated all dissertations are made available for download as protected PDF files.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhulk View Post
    Will your dissertation be put online after you are finished? At the university where I graduated all dissertations are made available for download as protected PDF files.
    I'm not sure if Springfield does that. I'll find out. I will be submitting it for publication after the defense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Just a quick update with regards to the betaine study.

    We saw some pretty impressive improvements in body composition and increases in upper arm muscle mass and improved upper body training volume with betaine.

    I'm presenting the dissertation study Tuesday August 21st (9:30 am) at Springfield College (MA) if anyone is interested in getting more info or a quick tour of the facilities.

    Br
    Hmm.. interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I'm not sure if Springfield does that. I'll find out. I will be submitting it for publication after the defense.
    So, we can find it through PubMed sooner or later if your manuscripts gets accepted, right? Do you already know where you want to submit it to, I mean which journal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhulk View Post
    So, we can find it through PubMed sooner or later if your manuscripts gets accepted, right? Do you already know where you want to submit it to, I mean which journal?
    Yes, that's correct. I have a pretty good relationship with ACSM's journal Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise. So I will submit it there first.

    Br
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    What about TMG's effects on mood? Any negative sides noted there?
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    Good discussion in here. Good to hear your study came out with some good results. Interested in checking it out once published.

    Both Purus' preworkouts (Muscle Marinade and ConDense) both have 2.5gs per serving so good to have more information coming out on it.
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    I was going to buy some more TMG before reading this thread, but this makes me want to buy it even more. I wish nutra had like a 500g bulk powder tub of it.
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    Glad I jumped in this thread. Good stuff in here, in for the knowledge.
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