Teenager and supplements - AnabolicMinds.com

Teenager and supplements

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    Teenager and supplements


    I have a question for you.
    My son has recently started lifting weights (14) He has done core strength training for years and has been very active in wrestling on a very competetive level.

    Currently he is working out with a trainer as I want to ensure that he is utilizing good form.

    Now that he has transitioned to lifting I am curious about supplements. I am in the health field and have done quite a bit of research with mixed results that has led to more questions than answers.

    I would be curious what others would suggest regarding supplement usage. Any advice would be appreciated.


    Thanks

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    Need more info than this. How old is your son? What are his stats? What are his goals?
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    What supplements are you wondering about? Generally, kids should wait to use supplements until they are older than your son currently is. Probably 90% of supplements, actually.

    The only actual supplement that I think he could contemplate would be creatine. But I'm sure even this would be controversial depending on who you ask.

    At this point his time would be best spent on continuing his training, as it sounds like you all have a good plan established. And also, eating correctly for him to reach his goals.

    Diet and training > supplements
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    The old standby is that diet and training make up about 99% of your end result. Supplementation is a very small part of lifting, and it's often thought of as a necessity rather than an addition to the training/diet routine.

    I would suggest your son continue his routine for the time being, and not worry about supplementation.
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    Not even creatine would be good for him at 14 years old...Even it says so on the label for 18+. Best supplement for him will be a good diet , to keep going with the exercise and maybe , and i said MAYBE, some protein powder, Whey as a post or preworkout , just simple protein with nothing extra , if he wants casein for nightime , give him cottage cheese or greek yogurt , some milk along the way too (HEB's Mootopia is quite healthy). But nothing more , at their age they dont need any supplements at all.
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    Muscle- He is 14, He is a little guy. 4ft 8in, 85lbs.
    Unsure what other measurables you want. He does sets of a hundred push ups at a time, and sets of 20 pull ups. He is lifting 3 x week and wrestling 3 x week.
    His main goal is to put on weight so he can be large enough when he is a freshman to wrestle (106lbs) . He also likes the idea of putting on muscle and getting stronger.

    He has not hit puberty yet and obviously that will be better than any supplement.

    The main supplements that I have read about have been Whey protein and creatine.

    My research seemed to support the use of whey protein and not creatine.

    Agree with all the comments in regards to diet and training being the best supplement but I am interested in using the Whey protein.

    How would you go about taking this and at what dose. I have never purchased this product and would like a recommendation of a product to purchase. Do you take before workouts or after?

    Thanks again for the advice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr3131 View Post
    Muscle- He is 14, He is a little guy. 4ft 8in, 85lbs.
    Unsure what other measurables you want. He does sets of a hundred push ups at a time, and sets of 20 pull ups. He is lifting 3 x week and wrestling 3 x week.
    His main goal is to put on weight so he can be large enough when he is a freshman to wrestle (106lbs) . He also likes the idea of putting on muscle and getting stronger.

    He has not hit puberty yet and obviously that will be better than any supplement.

    The main supplements that I have read about have been Whey protein and creatine.

    My research seemed to support the use of whey protein and not creatine.

    Agree with all the comments in regards to diet and training being the best supplement but I am interested in using the Whey protein.

    How would you go about taking this and at what dose. I have never purchased this product and would like a recommendation of a product to purchase. Do you take before workouts or after?

    Thanks again for the advice.
    Whey protein supplements are largely fine to utilize. Most folks take them in order to reach their overall protein goal, which varies between 1-1.5g/lbs lean body mass.

    If your son is around 85 lbs, then he can get the majority of protein from food sources, such as chicken and fish. The best thing to do is to calculate his BMR and TEE to find his caloric goal for the day, then ensure he's eating over that to put on weight. If he's hell bent on adding whey protein, that would be fine, but a good amount of chicken/fish/red meat would give him the same effects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Not even creatine would be good for him at 14 years old...Even it says so on the label for 18+.
    This is false. Creatine is beneficial and safe at any age.
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    Ozark- I am a physician and would love to read the data that shows creatine is safe in boys not yet in puberty. I haven't really been able to find any articles that support its use in this age group.

    Valhalla- BMR- Basic metabolic rate, TEE?
    Does it matter when you take the whey protein (pre/post workout) Is there a straight Whey protein you would recommend?

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr3131 View Post
    Ozark- I am a physician and would love to read the data that shows creatine is safe in boys not yet in puberty. I haven't really been able to find any articles that support its use in this age group.
    Have a look through these. Scroll down for links to the actual studies. There is no evidence to suggest that creatine would be unsafe for any age group.
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    I started using protein/creatine when I was 14 at the advice of my strength coach and haven't seen any studies that would suggest not to. I see nothing wrong with the use of these for a serious athlete in their early teens. Whey protein can be used at any time of the day but many opt to use it post workout. He needs to focus on eating (above maintenance calories) and can use whey to "supplement" what should already be a protein rich diet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr3131 View Post
    Ozark- I am a physician and would love to read the data that shows creatine is safe in boys not yet in puberty. I haven't really been able to find any articles that support its use in this age group.

    Valhalla- BMR- Basic metabolic rate, TEE?
    Does it matter when you take the whey protein (pre/post workout) Is there a straight Whey protein you would recommend?

    Thanks
    TEE is Total Energy Expenditure. Basically is a number that you multiply your BMR value by depending on your level of exercise for the week. So if he's relatively active daily and working out 3 days a week, you would multiply your value by approximately 1.4-1.5.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozarkaBRAND View Post
    Have a look through these. Scroll down for links to the actual studies. There is no evidence to suggest that creatine would be unsafe for any age group.
    Have you seen the effects of initial creatine supplementation on DHT?

    Anyway, if he just started weight training, let him get a good year or two under his belt. You don't want supplements to become an early psychological crutch for him.
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    If your son is that young, avoid anything testoserone related. Anything like DAA, aromatase inhibitors, etc. If I were to develop a supplement regimen for a kid that age, I'd give him some BCAA'S to take on an empty stomach when he's cutting weight. This will prevent him from burning as much muscle tissue during intensive dieting while still allowing him to burn fat. Taking them with food renders them much less effective, if not useless, so keep that in mind. Protein powder and creatine are both good.

    As far as the protein powder goes, try and make sure he's getting some source of protein every 3-4 hours wether it's from food, a protein shake or BCAA's (they can be counted toward protein intake). A lot of people will advise against creatine, but this is nonsense. Creatine can be found in many dietary sources and has a spotless safety profile despite what a lot of alarmist bloggers (who generally fail to cite actual research along with their claims) seem to suggest. It has numerous health benefits, including cognitive enhancement according to recent studies. Make sure he's drinking a lot of water along with it.

    I'd also consider giving him some GABA pre-workout. Your body has a natural hormonal response to exercise, it increases growth hormone and testosterone production. GABA has been shown to increase the body's growth hormone response to exercise by 500%, post workout. I also find that it helps with cardiovascular endurance. GABA has a pretty spotless safety record and is naturally occuring as well, though of all the supps I suggested, it would probably be the most controversial because it's the least widely known. My suggestion to you would be to do a bit of research on this one yourself before making a call, but I personally don't see any problem including it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr3131 View Post
    I have a question for you.
    My son has recently started lifting weights (14) He has done core strength training for years and has been very active in wrestling on a national level.

    Currently he is working out with a trainer as I want to ensure that he is utilizing good form.

    Now that he has transitioned to lifting I am curious about supplements. I am in the health field and have done quite a bit of research with mixed results that has led to more questions than answers.

    I would be curious what others would suggest regarding supplement usage. Any advice would be appreciated.


    Thanks
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    ^ GABA's effect on GH is not worth noting, especially during waking hours.
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    valhalla- Whey protein supplements are largely fine to utilize. Most folks take them in order to reach their overall protein goal, which varies between 1-1.5g/lbs lean body mass.
    Is this a typo. I thought the amount of protein would be 1-1.5g/KG not lbs

    His BMR is 1200 so Multiplying by the TEE of 1.4 gives a minimum caloric need of 1800cal/day.

    His weight is 85lbs so I calculated a daily protein need of 60gms.

    My head is spinning right now with all of the responses. I appreciate all of your thoughts. Most of you have a tremendous knowledge on this subject. I can tell you know this subject inside and out.

    Am I thinking of this wrong. If he has 3 glasses of milk a day and 1 chicken breast and 1 egg he will already be at 60 gms (total protein need). If this is the case why would I give him whey protein?

    J19- I must admit I don't know what BCAA's are.

    Thanks again folks. This is very informative.
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    I agree with most of the above comments, i also started lifting around or a little before 14. And at his age and weight i don't believe whey would be necessary. At his weight he can consume enough protein naturally without the extra supplementation (which is always superior), however it would help for his pre and post workout nutrition. He's bound to hit puberty soon, which is better than any supplement. Put him on a balanced meal plan and you'll get the best results. I can say from experience that he'll plateau at a weight until he has a growth spurt, 21 pounds is a lot too demand from a boy who hasn't hit puberty yet.
    P.S.- if you'd like too, personal message me and i can send you a sample diet
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    Muscle- thanks for the thoughts. I will PM you. BTW- he is only in 7th grade so he has a little over 1.5 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr3131 View Post
    valhalla- Whey protein supplements are largely fine to utilize. Most folks take them in order to reach their overall protein goal, which varies between 1-1.5g/lbs lean body mass.
    Is this a typo. I thought the amount of protein would be 1-1.5g/KG not lbs

    His BMR is 1200 so Multiplying by the TEE of 1.4 gives a minimum caloric need of 1800cal/day.

    His weight is 85lbs so I calculated a daily protein need of 60gms.

    My head is spinning right now with all of the responses. I appreciate all of your thoughts. Most of you have a tremendous knowledge on this subject. I can tell you know this subject inside and out.

    Am I thinking of this wrong. If he has 3 glasses of milk a day and 1 chicken breast and 1 egg he will already be at 60 gms (total protein need). If this is the case why would I give him whey protein?

    J19- I must admit I don't know what BCAA's are.

    Thanks again folks. This is very informative.
    60 grams of protein is what he needs to maintain, in order to bulk he'd need 1.5-2 grams per pound (btw yes it's pounds) of body weight. Around 127 grams of protein. There's a balance with your carbs and fats that has to be achieved. Around 50% healthy carbs, 30% protein, and 20% fat.
    And BCAAs are branched chain amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks of protein, and there are 9 essential amino acids that your body cannot produce, so you can supplement them and your body will use them to make new proteins and feed your muscles to prevent your body from going catabolic (or breaking itself down for energy). They are normally used for cutting phases to maintain muscle and lose fat, however i'm sure your son isn't going to be cutting anytime soon.
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    I want to reiterate the importance of the developmental phases of life. He should not engage in a rigorous cutting program at age 14. At such an early age, macronutrient requirements are also different, and I recommend a balanced diet rather than one that is protein-heavy. Whey protein is fine, as is a low-dosed fish oil. That's about as far as I'd go for now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Have you seen the effects of initial creatine supplementation on DHT?

    Anyway, if he just started weight training, let him get a good year or two under his belt. You don't want supplements to become an early psychological crutch for him.
    Yeah. Did you read the study?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozarkaBRAND View Post
    Yeah. Did you read the study?
    Indeed I have. Do I put much stock in it, especially with regards to prolonged administration? No. Would I err on the side of caution with a 14 year old (who just started weight training, mind you)? I'd say yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Would I err on the side of caution with a 14 year old (who just started weight training, mind you)? I'd say yes.
    Strength training will likely result in a larger hormonal fluctuation than creatine supplementation, but I think we'd both agree that it would be foolish not to strength train because of that possibility. The risks aren't great enough (read: nonexistent) for me to seriously consider not recommending it for any age group.
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    Were could i find the study?
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    Creatine is safe at any age and is found naturally in a lot of foods like red meat. I tend to think of whey less as a supplement more as a powder form food although less effective than real solid foods. No need for supplemenation outside those two items, continue your research as it will help in the future and youll learn to sift through the real data and the bull thats out there. Let the kid hit puberty and hell make moves fast.
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    Do you guys all really believe this 14 year old, 85 pound kid exists? These posts pop up every few months.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozarkaBRAND View Post
    Strength training will likely result in a larger hormonal fluctuation than creatine supplementation, but I think we'd both agree that it would be foolish not to strength train because of that possibility. The risks aren't great enough (read: nonexistent) for me to seriously consider not recommending it for any age group.
    I don't disagree about the effects being transient (not quite non-existent, at least for month 1), but I would still stick to whey and possibly low-dosed fish oil for someone who has just started strength training. It is not so much about the physical effects as it is about ingraining a supplement-based approach from the get-go. I can't tell you how many individuals I know who grew up with the idea that whey is necessary, and who, to this day, know that they do not need it but are too afraid to let go of the principles they first picked up when getting into this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Do you guys all really believe this 14 year old, 85 pound kid exists? These posts pop up every few months.
    Touche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Touche.
    Do you believe the FATHER exists? And we are not talking directly to the 14 y.o. 85lb kid.

    Furthermore, I agree with MrCooper , and though I was smacked before by someone else that creatine isnt bad for a 14 y.o. , true as it might be that it wont give damage immediatly , in the long run and with wrong dosages (specially being a kid who thinks more is better) creatine can actually cause damage to the system, and to the least a very...very...very nasty diarrhea case!. Stick to low doses fish oil and maybe Whey, like I said before, I aint no pro like MrCooper here, but not only him but many other users FAR more experienced than me have argued this too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozarkaBRAND View Post
    Have a look through these. Scroll down for links to the actual studies. There is no evidence to suggest that creatine would be unsafe for any age group.
    There is evidence to supports the theory that creatine may have an androgenic MOA, which would make it something a 14year old should not be taking
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Have you seen the effects of initial creatine supplementation on DHT?

    Anyway, if he just started weight training, let him get a good year or two under his belt. You don't want supplements to become an early psychological crutch for him.
    Dammit! This is why I should read an entire thread before posting
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It is not so much about the physical effects as it is about ingraining a supplement-based approach from the get-go. I can't tell you how many individuals I know who grew up with the idea that whey is necessary, and who, to this day, know that they do not need it but are too afraid to let go of the principles they first picked up when getting into this game.
    That is a fantastic point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr3131
    I have a question for you.
    My son has recently started lifting weights (14) He has done core strength training for years and has been very active in wrestling on a very competetive level.

    Currently he is working out with a trainer as I want to ensure that he is utilizing good form.

    Now that he has transitioned to lifting I am curious about supplements. I am in the health field and have done quite a bit of research with mixed results that has led to more questions than answers.

    I would be curious what others would suggest regarding supplement usage. Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    Chances are at 14 his diet consists if pizza and candy. That should be in check first. Not so strict, I mean the kids 14. Just a hood healthy diet and hive him a cheat day a week to eat whatever he wants. That being said.

    Get him a good whey protein isolate. Though it may not be as beneficial as whole food it will increase his uptake. Make sure he takes it immediately postworkout.

    No creatine, preworkouts, etc. That should wait until later down the road. If he wants a preworkout, seriously just give him the Gatorade Prime. Nothing wrong with that for a little boost in energy, I think they work pretty well and taste great. Regular gatorade will work well with a bottle if water during a workout.

    Get him a good sport multivitamin and a good omega-3 fish oil with high epa/dha.

    If he has a trainer there should be no problem there.

    I used to wrestle and I used collagen for my joints and skin health, combined with the fish oil it will work well for him.

    Keep it simple. Eat clean and lean. He will do well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Dammit! This is why I should read an entire thread before posting
    I think I spoke to soon as well, missed that point myself. rome32 nailed it home.
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    Muscle- I tried to PM but since I am new it won't let me. I would be interested in a sample diet. His mother is tracking what he eats (not telling him) as we are pretty healthy for the most part. I am interested to see how much protein he is taking in naturally with out thinking about it.

    Azark- Unsure if I should be offended. Is my writing that bad that I sound like a 14 y.o. Heck my 14 y.o only types 2-3 word responses to any email or text I send. Jk I can assure you that this 14 y.o does exist and I am his father.

    Cooper- You point about the psychological crutch is valid. I haven't talked with my son about supplements yet as I wanted to educate myself on the pros/cons first.

    After taking in all the advice I think that in addition to a well balanced diet and good workout program I will utilize whey protein, a multivitamin, and fish oil.

    Can anyone give me any specific products to purchase for each of these?

    One last question- I had a guy talk to me about the benefits of Vit. D. I must admit I haven't tried to research this but I would be interested to here if there is ANY validity to this.

    Thanks again
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr3131 View Post
    Muscle- I tried to PM but since I am new it won't let me. I would be interested in a sample diet. His mother is tracking what he eats (not telling him) as we are pretty healthy for the most part. I am interested to see how much protein he is taking in naturally with out thinking about it.

    Azark- Unsure if I should be offended. Is my writing that bad that I sound like a 14 y.o. Heck my 14 y.o only types 2-3 word responses to any email or text I send. Jk I can assure you that this 14 y.o does exist and I am his father.

    Cooper- You point about the psychological crutch is valid. I haven't talked with my son about supplements yet as I wanted to educate myself on the pros/cons first.

    After taking in all the advice I think that in addition to a well balanced diet and good workout program I will utilize whey protein, a multivitamin, and fish oil.

    Can anyone give me any specific products to purchase for each of these?

    One last question- I had a guy talk to me about the benefits of Vit. D. I must admit I haven't tried to research this but I would be interested to here if there is ANY validity to this.

    Thanks again
    You wanna be careful with Multivitamins , since some of them , wrong dosed , and specially at the age of your son could present liver toxicity problems. Happened to a friend of mine who gave his 12 year old daughter Centrum for adults...lets just say too long and too improperly (Mind I did mention it was the adult and not kid version...) and she had a bad case of laughs at school for having gone potty in her trousers due to a very nasty, jet propelled diarrhea

    Edit: Best Multivitamin IMO would be mom's healthy cooking at home watching the diet closely and throwing in enough fruits and vegetables.
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    cel- thanks. I agree that it is hard to beat a good diet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    You wanna be careful with Multivitamins , since some of them , wrong dosed , and specially at the age of your son could present liver toxicity problems. Happened to a friend of mine who gave his 12 year old daughter Centrum for adults...lets just say too long and too improperly (Mind I did mention it was the adult and not kid version...) and she had a bad case of laughs at school for having gone potty in her trousers due to a very nasty, jet propelled diarrhea

    Edit: Best Multivitamin IMO would be mom's healthy cooking at home watching the diet closely and throwing in enough fruits and vegetables.
    What dosage scheme was she taking? Half a bottle morning and night?

    Majority of multivitamins are fine if you follow the instructions. Folks that add additional fat soluble vitamins or metals/minerals to that that near the upper tolerable levels are more likely to have side effects.

    And who the hell is feeding a 12 year old multiple tabs of Centrum?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhalla86 View Post
    What dosage scheme was she taking? Half a bottle morning and night?

    Majority of multivitamins are fine if you follow the instructions. Folks that add additional fat soluble vitamins or metals/minerals to that that near the upper tolerable levels are more likely to have side effects.

    And who the hell is feeding a 12 year old multiple tabs of Centrum?
    Lets just say he is a sovereign idiot who gave her the bottle and told her to take them throught the day because he thought "the more she has the better" , he told her those pills make her healthy, smart, pretty and everything like her mommy was...(she had passed away...) and well lets just say she kinda took the advice to heart and indulged herself in a lot of them...I blame the dad for making her feel like she needed them and also for being an idiot and hand them out just like that to: "take them any moment you feel like it" without telling him not to exceed herself a certain dose a day >>!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Lets just say he is a sovereign idiot who gave her the bottle and told her to take them throught the day because he thought "the more she has the better" , he told her those pills make her healthy, smart, pretty and everything like her mommy was...(she had passed away...) and well lets just say she kinda took the advice to heart and indulged herself in a lot of them...I blame the dad for making her feel like she needed them and also for being an idiot and hand them out just like that to: "take them any moment you feel like it" without telling him not to exceed herself a certain dose a day >>!!
    This is why we can't have nice things. You would have thought gametes like that would be swimming in circles.

    Ah well, glad she's alright.
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    I would suggest he COULD add whey protein in post workout, but like everyone above me has stated- he can easily get his diet down perfect w/out whey protein..
    but then again instantly available aminos / proteins after your workout should be beneficial..


    edit: disregard my post and scroll immediately to rome32's post.
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