DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 13

DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There are no PEA isomers in craze besides b-PEA.



    Hordenine should have essentially no effect on PEA's half-life give hordenine's equivalent HL and inability to penetrate the CNS. As far as the Methyl-b-PEA, what would explain the different effects? I can see this being more relevant if it was a methyl substituted on the alpha position (obviously), but as it stands, I would expect no difference between methyl-b-pea and b-pea.
    Neither did I- it really surprised me when I took this combo. We have a function on our NIR that looks at chemical bonding, and I did compare the two out of curiousity (and to get a better idea of what I was working with- this feature is good at picking out adulterants), and they aren't very different besides the methylation- only thing I can think of is that the methylation alters first-pass metabolism somewhat, but this is only speculation
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Neither did I- it really surprised me when I took this combo. We have a function on our NIR that looks at chemical bonding, and I did compare the two out of curiousity (and to get a better idea of what I was working with- this feature is good at picking out adulterants), and they aren't very different besides the methylation- only thing I can think of is that the methylation alters first-pass metabolism somewhat, but this is only speculation
    i dont know if the liver is the major concern with metabolism of these PEA compounds. PEA and its derivatives are metabolized for the most part by mao b. according to wikidpedia mao b is localized mostly in neurons, astroglia, and blood platelets.

    i think cooper is right and a beta methyl doesnt really block mao b like alpha methyl
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    Isn't the whole idea of life pick your poison? Some drink, smoke (happy 420 to all stoners) shoot heroine whatever. I rarely drink (a glass or 2 of Guinness a week haven't smoked in about a year and I don't even shoot gear let alone heroine. If it works it works. Just incase I'm buying 2 tubs of craze today.
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    And did craze just increase in price again? Or has it always been 34?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokobeware2 View Post
    Isn't the whole idea of life pick your poison? Some drink, smoke (happy 420 to all stoners) shoot heroine whatever. I rarely drink (a glass or 2 of Guinness a week haven't smoked in about a year and I don't even shoot gear let alone heroine. If it works it works. Just incase I'm buying 2 tubs of craze today.
    Yes that is the point of life, but the problem here would be not knowing whats in your poison. For instance you may not think anything of me drinking whiskey and that's my own decision to drink whiskey. But if unknowingly the whiskey was loaded with lead don't you think I'd have a right to be aware of that fact?

    You wouldn't have an issue with Heinz if they didn't put on the label of ketchup that it contained gasoline if it did? That would be ok with you because if it works it works?

    Extreme examples yes, but I'm having a hard time seeing it from some people's perspectives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokobeware2
    Isn't the whole idea of life pick your poison? Some drink, smoke (happy 420 to all stoners) shoot heroine whatever. I rarely drink (a glass or 2 of Guinness a week haven't smoked in about a year and I don't even shoot gear let alone heroine. If it works it works. Just incase I'm buying 2 tubs of craze today.
    That's really not the issue. If your "poison" options aren't labeled correctly you don't know exactly what your picking.
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    One thing tho', how many ingredients/products we ingest for years and then
    one day a study comes out and tells us that stuff was bad for us?

    Again, I wanna know what I take like the next guy,
    but let's face it, having total control on anything we take (and I'm not talking
    only about supplements) is not happening, never has
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i dont know if the liver is the major concern with metabolism of these PEA compounds. PEA and its derivatives are metabolized for the most part by mao b. according to wikidpedia mao b is localized mostly in neurons, astroglia, and blood platelets.

    i think cooper is right and a beta methyl doesnt really block mao b like alpha methyl
    Then I honestly can't speculate why What you are both saying makes perfect sense- I am going to pull up the spectra I have and take another look and see if there is something I missed structurally on the bonding.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce

    Yes that is the point of life, but the problem here would be not knowing whats in your poison. For instance you may not think anything of me drinking whiskey and that's my own decision to drink whiskey. But if unknowingly the whiskey was loaded with lead don't you think I'd have a right to be aware of that fact?

    You wouldn't have an issue with Heinz if they didn't put on the label of ketchup that it contained gasoline if it did? That would be ok with you because if it works it works?

    Extreme examples yes, but I'm having a hard time seeing it from some people's perspectives.
    But how do u know a bottle of whiskey u drank didn't come in contact with lead? Just because you do not know, it doesn't make it any better. Maybe something's are best off not questioned
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokobeware2 View Post
    But how do u know a bottle of whiskey u drank didn't come in contact with lead? Just because you do not know, it doesn't make it any better. Maybe something's are best off not questioned

    now tell me how a sealed bottle of whiskey is going to get contaminated with lead.

    you should question stuff but within reason of course. Perhaps thats your point
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

    now tell me how a sealed bottle of whiskey is going to get contaminated with lead.

    you should question stuff but within reason of course. Perhaps thats your point
    In the process of manufacturing. Not shipment. And yes one should question stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokobeware2 View Post
    But how do u know a bottle of whiskey u drank didn't come in contact with lead? Just because you do not know, it doesn't make it any better. Maybe something's are best off not questioned
    I'm sorry this seems like such an insane position to take. Maybe somethings are best off not questioned? Really? You'd rather just not question what you're putting into your body? Is it possible that something gets contaminated somehow through no fault of the company? Certainly, but that isn't the issue at hand. If a company KNOWINGLY mislabeled a product you wouldn't be upset? Your response is really "well we shouldn't question it."?

    I just can't come to grips I guess with what some people are claiming in this thread. And FWIW I agree with a lot of what Autokal and Southpaw have said, but comments like this just baffle me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    One thing tho', how many ingredients/products we ingest for years and then
    one day a study comes out and tells us that stuff was bad for us?

    Again, I wanna know what I take like the next guy,
    but let's face it, having total control on anything we take (and I'm not talking
    only about supplements) is not happening, never has

    Agreed. No one goes after underdosed products out of some pseudo-concern, or in the vain some are preaching here of "looking out for us." I'm all for public safety as well. But let's be honest, that isn't the concern here for some. I have a feeling this will all amount to a mislabeling issue/technicality and due to that, the product ends up getting pulled. If that happens I wouldn't spend a dollar on any company/person involved that facilitated this in the first place and I'd advise my friends to follow suit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Agreed. No one goes after underdosed products out of some pseudo-concern, or in the vain some are preaching here of "looking out for us." I'm all for public safety as well. But let's be honest, that isn't the concern here for some. I have a feeling this will all amount to a mislabeling issue/technicality and due to that, the product ends up getting pulled. If that happens I wouldn't spend a dollar on any company/person involved that facilitated this in the first place and I'd advise my friends to follow suit.
    So let me get this straight.

    You expect Craze to be mislabeled and the person you will consider shady is there one who discovered the cover up? Considering the checkered past of DS, I believe your loyalties are a bit over zealous here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    So let me get this straight.

    You expect Craze to be mislabeled and the person you will consider shady is there one who discovered the cover up? Considering the checkered past of DS, I believe your loyalties are a bit over zealous here.
    DA, I respect your opinion, however, I consider all the parties involved here ranging from BK, RK and others, and judge accordingly based on their credibility as well, in addition to DS. I'm not blaming the messenger. I am, however, skeptical of the messengers intent (just know that I am not alone here, many others feel the same way but they won't voice these opinions for whatever reason). I could care less whether I get flamed on the interwebs of all places. It is what it is, the product will get pulled as many here are hoping for and all the pseudo-concern for the well being of "us customers" can and will continue forward I'm sure. I'm entitled to my position and I'm sticking to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    I'm sorry this seems like such an insane position to take. Maybe somethings are best off not questioned? Really? You'd rather just not question what you're putting into your body? Is it possible that something gets contaminated somehow through no fault of the company? Certainly, but that isn't the issue at hand. If a company KNOWINGLY mislabeled a product you wouldn't be upset? Your response is really "well we shouldn't question it."?

    I just can't come to grips I guess with what some people are claiming in this thread. And FWIW I agree with a lot of what Autokal and Southpaw have said, but comments like this just baffle me.
    well said, i guess some people will put anything down there throat as long as it gets a good review or results. southpaw sounds really young and careless on this subject, probably one of those people who won't be able to enjoy a glass of wine when he's 50 because his organs are shot from taking things with "good" reviews.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    So let me get this straight.

    You expect Craze to be mislabeled and the person you will consider shady is there one who discovered the cover up? Considering the checkered past of DS, I believe your loyalties are a bit over zealous here.
    DA I'm with you on this one This is craziness haha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobless View Post
    well said, i guess some people will put anything down there throat as long as it gets a good review or results. southpaw sounds really young and careless on this subject, probably one of those people who won't be able to enjoy a glass of wine when he's 50 because his organs are shot from taking things with "good" reviews.
    Everyone on the internet considers themselves an expert, as such you're entitled to your opinion. Again the insults don't bother me, the lack of transparency does, BK. Please don't let me get in the way of the "pseudo-concern."
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    DA, I respect your opinion, however, I consider all the parties involved here from BK, RK and others, and judge accordingly based on their credibility as well. I'm not blaming the messenger. I am, however, skeptical of the messengers intent (just know that I am not alone here, many others feel the same way but they won't voice these opinions for whatever reason). I could care less whether I get flamed on the interwebs of all places. It is what it is, the product will get pulled as many here are hoping for and all the pseudo-concern for the well being of "us customers" can and will continue I'm sure. I'm entitled to my position and I'm sticking to it.
    Not detracting from your right to feel how you do.

    Problem is, it will come to light one way or another if it is tainted, or if it is not. No reason to be He-man right now for the product. You do understand that Craze is experiencing the highest sale volume it will experience in it's time on the market right now due to the controversy. And if it does come to light that it is tainted with a hidden ingredient, more power to the people who brought it to light.

    I could care less if BK, RK and PA test products as much as they want or are paid to do... if your company is following the letter of the law then you have nothing to worry about. Again, you are defending a company that has their share of a past.. so essentially it is a pot/kettle thing.

    In the mean time, just sit back and relax and let it unfold. You crusading right now will not keep the product on the market any longer, nor sway any minds to go purchase it... the controversy already has peoples shelves stocked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Then I honestly can't speculate why What you are both saying makes perfect sense- I am going to pull up the spectra I have and take another look and see if there is something I missed structurally on the bonding.....
    Sitting here trying to replicate the phenyl ring and the aminoethyl group for the PEA and the phenylpropan-1-amine for the methyl PEA via the spectra- I have them sitting side by side for comparison- this may take a while to map this out....
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Not detracting from your right to feel how you do.

    Problem is, it will come to light one way or another if it is tainted, or if it is not. No reason to be He-man right now for the product. You do understand that Craze is experiencing the highest sale volume it will experience in it's time on the market right now due to the controversy. And if it does come to light that it is tainted with a hidden ingredient, more power to the people who brought it to light.

    I could care less if BK, RK and PA test products as much as they want or are paid to do... if your company is following the letter of the law then you have nothing to worry about. Again, you are defending a company that has their share of a past.. so essentially it is a pot/kettle thing.

    In the mean time, just sit back and relax and let it unfold. You crusading right now will not keep the product on the market any longer, nor sway any minds to go purchase it... the controversy already has peoples shelves stocked.
    DA, I'm not upset for any of the reasons you think I am. If it ends up being pulled off the market, so be it. I enjoy the product because it works very well. I love many of your companies' products as well and would hate to see any of them pulled for labeling issues, not because they are tainted, *if that turns out to be the case with Craze. Again, no crusade here on my part. I don't hold myself in that high a regard as to think my interweb postings will make much difference. It will probably end up getting pulled. Everyone involved can go back to being the great "public health crusaders" of our time. Thank you to that group, at least when Craze gets pulled we'll still have theobromine....awesome! Yaaaay.
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    This is actually starting to remind me of the Slim-Xtreme fiasco from a couple years back, LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Not detracting from your right to feel how you do.

    Problem is, it will come to light one way or another if it is tainted, or if it is not. No reason to be He-man right now for the product. You do understand that Craze is experiencing the highest sale volume it will experience in it's time on the market right now due to the controversy. And if it does come to light that it is tainted with a hidden ingredient, more power to the people who brought it to light.

    I could care less if BK, RK and PA test products as much as they want or are paid to do... if your company is following the letter of the law then you have nothing to worry about. Again, you are defending a company that has their share of a past.. so essentially it is a pot/kettle thing.

    In the mean time, just sit back and relax and let it unfold. You crusading right now will not keep the product on the market any longer, nor sway any minds to go purchase it... the controversy already has peoples shelves stocked.
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    Southpaw, you make it sound like the way the truth is found is all that matters, not the truth itself. Why not care about both? Why not want your favorite companies to be honest, AND your least favorite be equally honest.

    I can understand to a small degree you not liking competitors being behind the testings, but you make it seem like you are afraid to find out the truth regardless. That, my friend, is just plain ignorance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    DA, I'm not upset for any of the reasons you think I am. If it ends up being pulled off the market, so be it. I enjoy the product because it works very well. I love many of your companies' products as well and would hate to see any of them pulled for labeling issues, not because they are tainted, *if that turns out to be the case with Craze. Again, no crusade here on my part. I don't hold myself in that high a regard as to think my interweb postings will make much difference. It will probably end up getting pulled. Everyone involved can go back to being the great "public health crusaders" of our time. Thank you to that group, at least when Craze gets pulled we'll still have theobromine....awesome! Yaaaay.
    That's not what most here even want. Not many behind the competition wants the product pulled. From the consumer view, all that is wanted, and required is truthful labelling. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I could care less if crack is in there, put it on the label and let the masses decide if that is something they want to use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    This is actually starting to remind me of the Slim-Xtreme fiasco from a couple years back, LOL
    This is EXACTLY Slim-Xtreme... only reincarnated into a powder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    Southpaw, you make it sound like the way the truth is found is all that matters, not the truth itself. Why not care about both? Why not want your favorite companies to be honest, AND your least favorite be equally honest.

    I can understand to a small degree you not liking competitors being behind the testings, but you make it seem like you are afraid to find out the truth regardless. That, my friend, is just plain ignorance.
    If it turns out to be tainted, I support it being pulled off the shelf. If it ends up being pulled because of a technicality or labeling issue, that I don't support. I like how some are calling me overzealous, yet some of you take the other extreme position. But hey some of you carry on being public health crusaders, ya know at least until tomorrow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce

    I'm sorry this seems like such an insane position to take. Maybe somethings are best off not questioned? Really? You'd rather just not question what you're putting into your body? Is it possible that something gets contaminated somehow through no fault of the company? Certainly, but that isn't the issue at hand. If a company KNOWINGLY mislabeled a product you wouldn't be upset? Your response is really "well we shouldn't question it."?

    I just can't come to grips I guess with what some people are claiming in this thread. And FWIW I agree with a lot of what Autokal and Southpaw have said, but comments like this just baffle me.
    Something's you don't want an answer too. Nowhere in my post did I say the "unlisted ingredient" that this law firm (who according to Vaughn) is filing a claim against jack3d and DMAA is not out to make a quick buck. And do you know for a fact that they "KNOWINGLY" mislabeled a product? if you do please I would love to see sources. However, you know just as much as everybody else does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokobeware2 View Post
    Something's you don't want an answer too. Nowhere in my post did I say the "unlisted ingredient" that this law firm (who according to Vaughn) is filing a claim against jack3d and DMAA is not out to make a quick buck. And do you know for a fact that they "KNOWINGLY" mislabeled a product? if you do please I would love to see sources. However, you know just as much as everybody else does.

    BINGO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Everyone on the internet considers themselves an expert, as such you're entitled to your opinion. Again the insults don't bother me, the lack of transparency does, BK. Please don't let me get in the way of the "pseudo-concern."
    Sorry what's does "BK" mean ? And like you say everyone entitled to there opinions so choose to formulate any opinion about me that you want. I don't see what motivations I would have to bring up a simple point of concern for others like me beside just letting people know. I'm in this because I'm trying to learn about what I just put down my throat as I am actually concerned about it
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobless View Post
    Sorry what's does "BK" mean ? And like you say everyone entitled to there opinions so choose to formulate any opinion about me that you want. I don't see what motivations I would have to bring up a simple point of concern for others like me beside just letting people know. I'm in this because I'm trying to learn about what I just put down my throat as I am actually concerned about it
    Okay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    BINGO.
    This is the problem in the industry.... unknowingly is just as bad.

    You sell a product that is meant for ingestion.. how in the world is it okay for it to be even unknowingly mislabeled?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokobeware2 View Post
    Something's you don't want an answer too. Nowhere in my post did I say the "unlisted ingredient" that this law firm (who according to Vaughn) is filing a claim against jack3d and DMAA is not out to make a quick buck. And do you know for a fact that they "KNOWINGLY" mislabeled a product? if you do please I would love to see sources. However, you know just as much as everybody else does.
    Of course I don't know this, hell none of us really know anything. You came off (or at least I and others interpreted it) as "who cares" what's in it, let people take their own poison, etc. I was saying that is an insane position to take.

    I actually probably agree with Southpaw and Autokal in this thread more than a lot of other people. But some (and sorry if I've misconstrued your post, but you seem to be trying to walk back some comments now) people who are acting like they only care if it works who cares what it actually has in it come off as nuts to me.

    Like DA I could care less if it has crack as long as they tell me it has crack in it. I'll decide then if its worth it. But if it doesn't have what they say it does in it how could anyone think that is no big deal is besides me. It's part of the reason I'm not a big fan of prop blends because we don't get to know how much of something a product has. It keeps us from making a truly informed decision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    This is the problem in the industry.... unknowingly is just as bad.

    You sell a product that is meant for ingestion.. how in the world is it okay for it to be even unknowingly mislabeled?
    I'll reiterate my previous point, if it is tainted, then in fact it should be pulled. I would be very upset if I found out it was tainted. At this point, I'm simply reserving judgment until all the facts come out. *IF being the keyword here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    That's not what most here even want. Not many behind the competition wants the product pulled. From the consumer view, all that is wanted, and required is truthful labelling. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I could care less if crack is in there, put it on the label and let the masses decide if that is something they want to use.
    +1 ^^^
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23

    If it turns out to be tainted, I support it being pulled off the shelf. If it ends up being pulled because of a technicality or labeling issue, that I don't support. I like how some are calling me overzealous, yet some of you take the other extreme position. But hey some of you carry on being public health crusaders, ya know at least until tomorrow.
    If it is in deed some sort of technicality as you say, and not illegal, I wouldn't want it pulled either...just fix the label. If they somehow were duped by a raw ingredient manufacturer then this would just reiterate the need of 3rd party testing on all supplements(whether per batch, every other, whatever). The downside is prices will probably go up...like the saying goes "you get what you pay for."
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    I'll reiterate my previous point, if it is tainted, then in fact it should be pulled. I would be very upset if I found out it was tainted. At this point, I'm simply reserving judgment until all the facts come out. *IF being the keyword here.
    I was only referencing back to your statement of a technicality or labeling issue. I was just saying if a product is out there, with testing and such there should be no technicality to fall back on. If a name is slightly off, or mis organized ingredients, thats no big deal... just that if something was left off even unintentionally, like getting your raws from china then not testing the authenticity and using china's COA.

    I never really meant to jump in this thread with so many posts! I personally don't really care one way or another as I can't take stims!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce

    Of course I don't know this, hell none of us really know anything. You came off (or at least I and others interpreted it) as "who cares" what's in it, let people take their own poison, etc. I was saying that is an insane position to take.

    I actually probably agree with Southpaw and Autokal in this thread more than a lot of other people. But some (and sorry if I've misconstrued your post, but you seem to be trying to walk back some comments now) people who are acting like they only care if it works who cares what it actually has in it come off as nuts to me.

    Like DA I could care less if it has crack as long as they tell me it has crack in it. I'll decide then if its worth it. But if it doesn't have what they say it does in it how could anyone think that is no big deal is besides me. It's part of the reason I'm not a big fan of prop blends because we don't get to know how much of something a product has. It keeps us from making a truly informed decision.
    First off, everything is all speculation. I got the assumption that you knew otherwise so I questioned it. Secondly, I'm not trying to change what I meant. I do believe in pick your poison however I also agree in everything in moderation. I apologize for not mentioning that. I agree too if they put coke in a PWO I would make a decision to buy it or not. But then I started to think if ( with a big if) they put an amphetamine like substance in it, do you think they would put an insane amount of it in a PWO? Granted due to settling and other factors in some servings you may get more of the ingredient than other ones but I find it hard to believe that any company would do that
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I was only referencing back to your statement of a technicality or labeling issue. I was just saying if a product is out there, with testing and such there should be no technicality to fall back on. If a name is slightly off, or mis organized ingredients, thats no big deal... just that if something was left off even unintentionally, like getting your raws from china then not testing the authenticity and using china's COA.

    I never really meant to jump in this thread with so many posts! I personally don't really care one way or another as I can't take stims!
    I agree as it relates to the comment in bold above. Looking forward to trying the PWO by PES!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokobeware2 View Post
    In the process of manufacturing. Not shipment.
    proper quality control should take that into consideration
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Agreed. No one goes after underdosed products out of some pseudo-concern, or in the vain some are preaching here of "looking out for us." I'm all for public safety as well. But let's be honest, that isn't the concern here for some. I have a feeling this will all amount to a mislabeling issue/technicality and due to that, the product ends up getting pulled. If that happens I wouldn't spend a dollar on any company/person involved that facilitated this in the first place and I'd advise my friends to follow suit.

    do you consider failing to list a major ingredient on the label to be a "technicality"?
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