DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daycrawler View Post
    I've googled that string and not much substanial information was found...

    Besides the fact that it has little to.no effects...

    Can you elaborate or give a layman explanation?
    I googled it also and found this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I googled it also and found this.
    You trollin brah?
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone

    I googled it also and found this.
    It appears then, that this is in close relation to ecstasy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM View Post
    It appears then, that this is in close relation to ecstasy?
    that little methyl coming off the carbon next to the nitrogen makes a night and day difference. the compound i found in craze has no such methyl. if it did then mr. cahill would be in a world of trouble!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM View Post
    It appears then, that this is in close relation to ecstasy?
    The compound he linked has nothing to do with anything PA mentioned. The sole similarity is the amine between two benzene rings.

    EDIT: Jinx
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    I find it questionable at best as to why said individuals can't spend more of their time and resources on making something comparable or better, rather than taking away another option for consumers. MAKE SOMETHING BETTER.
    They can only make something better if it also has non-dshea or illegal ingredients in it. It is like a juiced up bodybuilder competing against all natural athletes. Of course the guy on the gear says he isn't taking anything but protein and creatine.....If they don't test the competitors before entering the contest nobody will ever know if he was/is on gear and he has/had an unfair advantage.
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    So this jobless guy is just Bruce kneller trolling ds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    They can only make something better if it also has non-dshea or illegal ingredients in it. It is like a juiced up bodybuilder competing against all natural athletes. Of course the guy on the gear says he isn't taking anything but protein and creatine.....If they don't test the competitors before entering the contest nobody will ever know if he was/is on gear and he has/had an unfair advantage.
    Right.
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    I haven't skimmed through this whole thread, but it looks like the substance in question is PEA related? They better not take PEA off the market!!

    Designer stims, I could care less about though, but pure PEA is the goods in terms of nootropics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    thermolife[.]com/forum/thread3221.html
    LoL holy fawk Kramer can be brutal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    LoL holy fawk Kramer can be brutal
    Ouch- that is rough....interesting discussion in general

    I agree that the manufacturers really need to do a better job at policing themselves, b/c if the gubment steps in- you haven't seen anything yet- someone made a comparison to Australia, which is probably not too far off from what would end up happening to the industry. Manufacturing would get much more expensive in general, and you would see the cost of most commonly available supplements go through the roof, because current facilities would have to make costly changes just to keep up with the regulations. I also agree that a few bad apples can ruin it for the whole bunch- mislabeling and misbranding products in the industry is not as common as it used to be, but it still happens more than it needs to. Some of it is inadvertent as a result of negligence (improper testing, etc.), but when you get into the realm of deliberately adulterating/misbranding, that is a whole different animal. This aspect of the game terrifies me, because of the potential implications for both end users, and future regulatory intervention.

    Not really sure what happened in this case- I will say that things get a lot harder to control when you rely on a contract mfr. for finished product and sourcing your raws- most cos. have no idea of what they are really looking at, of even if there is a problem, often until it is too late....
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Ouch- that is rough....interesting discussion in general

    I agree that the manufacturers really need to do a better job at policing themselves, b/c if the gubment steps in- you haven't seen anything yet- someone made a comparison to Australia, which is probably not too far off from what would end up happening to the industry. Manufacturing would get much more expensive in general, and you would see the cost of most commonly available supplements go through the roof, because current facilities would have to make costly changes just to keep up with the regulations. I also agree that a few bad apples can ruin it for the whole bunch- mislabeling and misbranding products in the industry is not as common as it used to be, but it still happens more than it needs to. Some of it is inadvertent as a result of negligence (improper testing, etc.), but when you get into the realm of deliberately adulterating/misbranding, that is a whole different animal. This aspect of the game terrifies me, because of the potential implications for both end users, and future regulatory intervention.

    Not really sure what happened in this case- I will say that things get a lot harder to control when you rely on a contract mfr. for finished product and sourcing your raws- most cos. have no idea of what they are really looking at, of even if there is a problem, often until it is too late....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    LoL holy fawk Kramer can be brutal

    i wasnt able to open that link
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Ebonics translation= Don't hate da playa hate da game!
    LOL- as both consumers and manufacturers, we actually want the game to stay like it is right now- like Patrick said, it can get a whole lot worse
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i wasnt able to open that link
    just cut and paste, and take out the parethesis around [.]com
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i wasnt able to open that link
    You have to remove the spaces and the []
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    anyone know the substance in question in Craze? Is it the phenylethylamine metabolites/isomers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    LoL holy fawk Kramer can be brutal
    That is some brutal stuff there wow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    anyone know the substance in question in Craze? Is it the phenylethylamine metabolites/isomers?
    No one is sure yet, that is in part the problem.
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    I'm a little worried that it is, makes sense. That would spell trouble for any PEA products I knew it was only a matter of time though. Saving grace is that PEA on it's own is almost useless, and it is also naturally occurring (pure PEA, even thought it's a chem, not an herb), so hopefully it'll be safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    believe me, its the wild west in our industry still. maybe not like 5-10 years ago but not that much different. that may change very soon though
    Yeah, I've only been in this 'industry' for ~a year I'd say, like actually in it a year and already seen pH prices triple...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I'm a little worried that it is, makes sense. That would spell trouble for any PEA products I knew it was only a matter of time though. Saving grace is that PEA on it's own is almost useless, and it is also naturally occurring (pure PEA, even thought it's a chem, not an herb), so hopefully it'll be safe.
    my guess is that the n-benzyl pea is not really doing much of anything in the formula. still, it is in the formula in substantial amounts and it is not listed on the label. which makes me wonder, why put it in there at all??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    my guess is that the n-benzyl pea is not really doing much of anything in the formula. still, it is in the formula in substantial amounts and it is not listed on the label. which makes me wonder, why put it in there at all??
    i am pretty sure i see n,n-diethyl pea in the formula too. I dont think this is naturally occuring either, but it is listed on the label

    i wouldnt expect that compound to do much of anything either
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    Without any form of maob inhibitor, they're basically useless compounds

    PEA is naturally occurring neurotransmitter. A lot of nootropics are related to neurotransmitters, I wonder how that industry stays afloat if they are considered unnatural as well (not from plants or herbs). I know l-dopa can be extracted from velvet beans, but I'm unsure of PEA. PEA does break down into dopa though, so maybe that's arguable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    without any form of maob inhibitor, they're basically useless compounds

    even with a mao b inhibitor would they offer any advantage over regular old pea?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I know l-dopa can be extracted from velvet beans, but I'm unsure of PEA.

    I thought PEA was in chocolate. Or maybe it was secondary-release from other stuff (trimethylxanthines that cause the brain to release its own PEA?).

    Mr. Arnold? Oh, BTW, I still have a few capsules of AMP purchased way back in '05!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Without any form of maob inhibitor, they're basically useless compounds

    PEA is naturally occurring neurotransmitter. A lot of nootropics are related to neurotransmitters, I wonder how that industry stays afloat if they are considered unnatural as well (not from plants or herbs). I know l-dopa can be extracted from velvet beans, but I'm unsure of PEA. PEA does break down into dopa though, so maybe that's arguable.
    I thought if one took enough PEA, one could get a sufficient dose to feel effects as the amount of MAOB to metabolize during first pass is limited. Probably poor word choice, but if take enough, some will get through. I was asking 10 pages back if there is anything in there including Piperidine that would enable more PEA to cross BBB?

    I have heard if guys taking huge doses of PEA and snorting PEA report and ampedup amphetamine feeling. I have seen a threshold dose regarding this, just cannot remember the amount. Maybe the amount and different PEAs in Craze is allowing some to get through or by MAOB.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    even with a mao b inhibitor would they offer any advantage over regular old pea?
    No idea, I'm totally unfamiliar with these isomers. Have never seen them before. I tend to stay away from designer substances without any studies behind them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    I thought if one took enough PEA, one could get a sufficient dose to feel effects as the amount of MAOB to metabolize during first pass is limited. Probably poor word choice, but if take enough, some will get through. I was asking 10 pages back if there is anything in there including Piperidine that would enable more PEA to cross BBB?

    I have heard if guys taking huge doses of PEA and snorting PEA report and ampedup amphetamine feeling. I have seen a threshold dose regarding this, just cannot remember the amount. Maybe the amount and different PEAs in Craze is allowing some to get through or by MAOB.
    It takes about 1 gram of PEA in order to saturate MAOB receptors. A dose of 1.5grams is enough to feel something... but it is widely believed that any dose that goes past saturation, is toxic. (not sure if my wording is right so bare with me, but you get the idea)

    Pre-dosing 100-200mg of caffeine is also enough to tie up MAOB in order for PEA to have effect.

    I have heard stories of people taking a gram of PEA with deprenyl though and they still lived. Effects were an hour plus. They didn't take the gram at once though, but split it 30min / 30min. Effects were very intense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    It takes about 1 gram of PEA in order to saturate MAOB receptors. A dose of 1.5grams is enough to feel something... but it is widely believed that any dose that goes past saturation, is toxic. (not sure if my wording is right so bare with me, but you get the idea)

    Pre-dosing 100-200mg of caffeine is also enough to tie up MAOB in order for PEA to have effect.

    I have heard stories of people taking a gram of PEA with deprenyl though and they still lived. Effects were an hour plus. They didn't take the gram at once though, but split it 30min / 30min. Effects were very intense.
    From my experience, regular PEA does very little on its own, or even with hordenine. R-Beta Methyl PEA plus Hordenine= different story altogether- 250 mg R-Beta plus 100 mg of hordenine and you will be sweating your ass off and grinding your teeth, LOL. It has a decent "feel" to it (not unlike 1,3 DMAA), but it can make people edgy and agitated
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    To best describe it, it's like an MDMA/amphetamine hybrid feeling (from what I've heard) when dosing high on the MAOB inhibitor, like 10mg of deprenyl taken many hours prior. Very very positive but intense feeling, pure euphoria. If those effects aren't noticed, dose of maob inhibitor and/or pea is too low. I don't necessarily recommend trying this due to safety though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    To best describe it, it's like an MDMA/amphetamine hybrid feeling (from what I've heard) when dosing high on the MAOB inhibitor, like 10mg of deprenyl taken many hours prior. Very very positive but intense feeling, pure euphoria. If those effects aren't noticed, dose of maob inhibitor and/or pea is too low. I don't necessarily recommend trying this due to safety though.
    I can confirm what you are saying, except with modafinil (DA reuptake inhibitor) instead of deprenyl aong with a dose of naringin, cocoa, and caffeine. It literally turned me into a drooling, laughing idiot for 1.5 hrs. or so- totally inadvertant, but not unpleasant, once I realized what had happened. I would NOT try to duplicate this- I think I lost some serious brain cells that day
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    Really? From my experience, things were very much in control, felt godlike, no drooling lol. Imagine sun god, beaming and powerful
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Really? From my experience, things were very much in control, felt godlike, no drooling lol. Imagine sun god, beaming and powerful
    Mine was more tingling euphoria, like when the first rush from X hits you- probably didn't help that I wasn't expecting it. I literally could not stand up (or move) for roughly an hour or so- just had a huge smile on my face, and my whole body was tingling- gave the combo to 3 other people, who basically had the same observations
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    No idea, I'm totally unfamiliar with these isomers. Have never seen them before. I tend to stay away from designer substances without any studies behind them.
    There are no PEA isomers in craze besides b-PEA.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    From my experience, regular PEA does very little on its own, or even with hordenine. R-Beta Methyl PEA plus Hordenine= different story altogether- 250 mg R-Beta plus 100 mg of hordenine and you will be sweating your ass off and grinding your teeth, LOL. It has a decent "feel" to it (not unlike 1,3 DMAA), but it can make people edgy and agitated
    Hordenine should have essentially no effect on PEA's half-life give hordenine's equivalent HL and inability to penetrate the CNS. As far as the Methyl-b-PEA, what would explain the different effects? I can see this being more relevant if it was a methyl substituted on the alpha position (obviously), but as it stands, I would expect no difference between methyl-b-pea and b-pea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gokmog View Post
    I thought PEA was in chocolate. Or maybe it was secondary-release from other stuff (trimethylxanthines that cause the brain to release its own PEA?).

    Mr. Arnold? Oh, BTW, I still have a few capsules of AMP purchased way back in '05!

    PEA is in chocolate however it is not what is responsible for the psychoactivity. its more the theophylline and theobromine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    To best describe it, it's like an MDMA/amphetamine hybrid feeling (from what I've heard) when dosing high on the MAOB inhibitor, like 10mg of deprenyl taken many hours prior. Very very positive but intense feeling, pure euphoria. If those effects aren't noticed, dose of maob inhibitor and/or pea is too low. I don't necessarily recommend trying this due to safety though.
    none of this sounds very attractive from a bodybuilding perspective. maybe from a recreational party perspective it is
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There are no PEA isomers in craze besides b-PEA.

    .
    what about n,n-diethyl and n-benzyl derivatives? not counting them as isomers?

    technically they are not isomers, but derivatives. but i just wanted to check
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    Cool


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    what about n,n-diethyl and n-benzyl derivatives? not counting them as isomers?

    technically they are not isomers, but derivatives. but i just wanted to check
    Right, they are derivatives. I was just trying to maintain clarity since there are so many PEA-compounds being discussed in this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    none of this sounds very attractive from a bodybuilding perspective. maybe from a recreational party perspective it is
    Definitely only recreational or part of a nootropic stack at lower dose.
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