N-methyl-D-aspartic acid (NMDA) Read before supplementing

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    N-methyl-D-aspartic acid (NMDA) Read before supplementing


    One of the key things I found most interesting was this:

    "
    When I first started researching NMDA, I was considering marketing it as a nutritional supplement. After delving in deeper however, a couple of things made me change my mind. First of all, I contacted the patent inventor to see if I could get some more information on NMDA. He regretfully told me that his later research failed to confirm his earlier findings, and that he had deemed the project not worthy of further pursuit. I also discovered that NMDA is potentially quite toxic and may destroy neurons in sensitive areas of the brain like the hippocampus and the basal ganglia. NMDA might also have the capacity to induce convulsions in susceptible individuals.
    "


    but the whole piece is worth reading. Let me know what you guys think!

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    1st in spicy thread



    I'm sure Vaughn has considered all of these things, so I'm interested in what he has to say.
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    Me too! The benefits described in that article make it seem like a great supplement, then I read that and was like . Interested what others think or know about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    1st in spicy thread



    I'm sure Vaughn has considered all of these things, so I'm interested in what he has to say.
    I've addresses the toxicity issues numerous times, as has PA since then actually. He agrees with me that there is no danger in an oral dose of NMDA.


    As to the ingredient not working...I'll let other users speak on that
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    Cool. I'll take your word for it.

    Jk but seriously I'm looking for studies or threads on the subject and not finding much as far as toxicity is concerned. Can I get a link or a name that might help me locate what you're referring to?
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    I could be wrong on this, but I believe the whole neurotoxin bit was 'when physically applied to brain tissue'... at least from my memory when this came up before
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    They're are quite specific on not dosing more than one dose per day. I did a little research on NMDA myself when beta testing and saw that, but couldn't find anything solid to prove or rebuke those statements, and in what doses those negative results were seen. For all we know, it could have been several grams or maybe more before anything was seen. In for the official response.
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    I'd be interested in giving this product a try in the future if I was a little more confident about it not being neurotoxic because it sounds like it has some great positive attributes.
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    Just did a little more reading, and it seems like if large doses are applied directly to brain matter, then yes it will destroy neural cells. However, if given a smaller dose, it allows individuals to respond to excitatory stimuli through the interrelated functioning of NMDA receptors, glutamate, and dopamine. IOW, high doses directly applied to neural cells will kill them while lower doses directly applied to neural cells will stimulate them. So assuming they were dosing higher than 50mg/~80-100 kg, again, directly to the neural cells, then between the recommended doses and the fact that we have this thing called a blood-brain barrier, I don't think we have too much to worry about. Just don't go mixing this stuff into solution and injecting into your brain or spinal column.
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    Seems safe to me.
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    A link to a site might have been nice but I'll look for those studies at a later date. Does seem safe if that's accurate and I might give this a run in a few months if the user feedback is good!
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    The same DAA "scare" has been around for a long time as well. Now it's a thing of the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    Seems safe to me.
    I 2nd that, and am willing to put my high school degree on it
    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by natandrb View Post
    They're are quite specific on not dosing more than one dose per day. I did a little research on NMDA myself when beta testing and saw that, but couldn't find anything solid to prove or rebuke those statements, and in what doses those negative results were seen. For all we know, it could have been several grams or maybe more before anything was seen. In for the official response.
    True. Interested in the dosage amount on what was posted.
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    The amount of legitimate scientific research and citation going on in this thread is staggering. It's really something when you come into a thread and it's full of people on all sides of an issue who thoroughly appreciate what constitutes proof and don't waste time with nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuZo View Post
    The same DAA "scare" has been around for a long time as well. Now it's a thing of the past.
    ^^^ This, I was going to say the same thing. They had a lot of sides/scares about this with DAA as well.
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    why stop using a proven product DAA for an unproven one (meaning there are NONE studies that have tested the toxicity and effectiveness in humans of NMDA)

    ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????

    i cannot believe why people do that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordinator View Post
    One of the key things I found most interesting was this:

    "
    When I first started researching NMDA, I was considering marketing it as a nutritional supplement. After delving in deeper however, a couple of things made me change my mind. First of all, I contacted the patent inventor to see if I could get some more information on NMDA. He regretfully told me that his later research failed to confirm his earlier findings, and that he had deemed the project not worthy of further pursuit. I also discovered that NMDA is potentially quite toxic and may destroy neurons in sensitive areas of the brain like the hippocampus and the basal ganglia. NMDA might also have the capacity to induce convulsions in susceptible individuals.
    "


    but the whole piece is worth reading. Let me know what you guys think!
    Is there a link to a larger article that I'm not seeing? Can you please provide this? Thank you.
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    NMDA-induced neurotoxicity in a human model is very poorly understood, and you probably won't be seeing a safety study any time in the near future due to variation in human experience and the invasiveness of such an experiment. The in vitro data leads me to believe that toxicity won't be an issue at the doses being supplemented, but as a "safety net," you could always consider supplementing low-dosed Huperzine A or Agmatine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordinator View Post
    I'd be interested in giving this product a try in the future if I was a little more confident about it not being neurotoxic because it sounds like it has some great positive attributes.

    I understand your concerns. Gains are not worth it when they come at the cost of our health!


    We tested this compound in dozens of people before bringing it to the market to ensure its safety. Just about every person who reads the science sees how this is non-toxic when taken orally, however I think this study may help people relax a bit(if they still believe it may be toxic):

    Neuroprotective effects of creatine administration against NMDA and malonate toxicity.

    Malcon C, Kaddurah-Daouk R, Beal MF.
    Source

    Neurochemistry Laboratory, Neurology Service, Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA.

    Abstract

    We examined whether creatine administration could exert neuroprotective effects against excitotoxicity mediated by N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA), alpha-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazolepropionic acid (AMPA) and kainic acid. Oral administration of 1% creatine significantly attenuated striatal excitotoxic lesions produced by NMDA, but had no effect on lesions produced by AMPA or kainic acid. Both creatine and nicotinamide can exert significant protective effects against malonate-induced striatal lesions. We, therefore, examined whether nicotinamide could exert additive neuroprotective effects with creatine against malonate-induced lesions. Nicotinamide with creatine produced significantly better neuroprotection than creatine alone against malonate-induced lesions. Creatine can, therefore, produce significant neuroprotective effects against NMDA mediated excitotoxic lesions in vivo and the combination of nicotinamide with creatine exerts additive neuroprotective effects.

    Ok...so do any of you take Creatine? Yes, I know you all do.

    Do any of you take Niacin? The vast majority of you do...and if not, you can get a great dose in MANY products out there, or even on its own.



    Basically here are the facts:

    #1 - NMDA can not cause excitotoxicity when given orally.
    #2 - NMDA excitotoxicity was proven to be basically non-existant in vivo by simply adding in creatine(at a 1% solution nontheless!) and niacin.


    so...Intimidate is 100% safe/healthy. If you're at ALL concerned about it, just make sure you're taking 1-5g of creatine, and a small dose of niacin each day and...BOOM!
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    Quote Originally Posted by magick69 View Post
    why stop using a proven product DAA for an unproven one (meaning there are NONE studies that have tested the toxicity and effectiveness in humans of NMDA)

    ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????

    i cannot believe why people do that
    D-Aspartate (what forums refer to as DAA) and N-methyl-D-Aspartate (NMDA) both interact with NMDA receptors. These receptors are relatively highly permeable to calcium, hence the potential for neurotoxicity (intracellular calcium will activate numerous cellular pathways, among them apopotosis, i.e. cell death). The real question is, what is the safe oral dosage for either compound? Good luck funding a study looking into this... Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence may be all we have to rely on for a while.
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    we already know what is the safe dose for DAA what we don't know is

    1) NMDA toxicity in humans
    2) effectiviness
    3) dose

    at the moment we have DAA studies and NONE FOR NMDA ; so it is safe to buy studied products

    this is logic cannot be argued
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    Quote Originally Posted by magick69 View Post
    we already know what is the safe dose for DAA what we don't know is

    1) NMDA toxicity in humans
    2) effectiviness
    3) dose

    at the moment we have DAA studies and NONE FOR NMDA ; so it is safe to buy studied products

    this is logic cannot be argued
    so I take it you've done absolutely no research on the matter, nor have you read any of my posts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by magick69 View Post
    we already know what is the safe dose for DAA what we don't know is

    1) NMDA toxicity in humans
    2) effectiviness
    3) dose

    at the moment we have DAA studies and NONE FOR NMDA ; so it is safe to buy studied products

    this is logic cannot be argued
    Please point me to a study that establishes what the safe dosage of D-aspartate is. People use 3 g because that's approximately what was used in the RB&E study. To my knowledge, they did not take any sort of metics looking at toxicity, so there is no way to know if that is a 'safe dose'. Point being, with either of those compounds, and most supplements for that matter, there will be a certain level of risk involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by magick69
    we already know what is the safe dose for DAA what we don't know is

    1) NMDA toxicity in humans
    2) effectiviness
    3) dose

    at the moment we have DAA studies and NONE FOR NMDA ; so it is safe to buy studied products

    this is logic cannot be argued
    Don't worry. Just take it. Vaughn say it's allllll good. I think you are only born with one brain anyway. Well there's two but the little guy ain't so smart in some cases. Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba Steveo View Post
    Please point me to a study that establishes what the safe dosage of D-aspartate is. People use 3 g because that's approximately what was used in the RB&E study.
    I take 6 grams a day - 3 in the mo-nin' and 3 at night. Been doing that for a year now. Cycled off maybe one or two months otherwise just continuous. DAA is a staple for me.

    Oddly, this is the first I've ever heard of NMDA being available for use.

    I like what Vaughn is saying on this - and the studies he's provided - so I'll be trying this stuff in the future.
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    Thanks Honda
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Is there a link to a larger article that I'm not seeing? Can you please provide this? Thank you.
    Yes there was; thank you for catching that. For some reason it was omitted for my first post...

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...atrick-arnold/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordinator View Post
    Yes there was; thank you for catching that. For some reason it was omitted for my first post...

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...atrick-arnold/
    Thanks for the link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue

    so I take it you've done absolutely no research on the matter, nor have you read any of my posts?
    Vaughn, since everyone wants to second guess the stuff, just send it all to me. I can cut big POs too pal....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordinator View Post
    One of the key things I found most interesting was this:

    "
    When I first started researching NMDA, I was considering marketing it as a nutritional supplement. After delving in deeper however, a couple of things made me change my mind. First of all, I contacted the patent inventor to see if I could get some more information on NMDA. He regretfully told me that his later research failed to confirm his earlier findings, and that he had deemed the project not worthy of further pursuit. I also discovered that NMDA is potentially quite toxic and may destroy neurons in sensitive areas of the brain like the hippocampus and the basal ganglia. NMDA might also have the capacity to induce convulsions in susceptible individuals.
    "


    but the whole piece is worth reading. Let me know what you guys think!
    Thank you for posting the link. I thought that perhaps by "started researching NMDA" that the person had performed experiments. I didn't realize it was literature research. With respect to PA, this is his opinion on what he has read which is why he is correct to say "potentially" and "might". Also, just because one researcher who was trying to patent NMDA had no luck in their experiments and gave up, does not mean that it does not work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mission1

    Don't worry. Just take it. Vaughn say it's allllll good. I think you are only born with one brain anyway. Well there's two but the little guy ain't so smart in some cases. Good luck.
    The little guy. Lmao most off the dumb **** I've done was cause of the little guy!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    I understand your concerns. Gains are not worth it when they come at the cost of our health!


    We tested this compound in dozens of people before bringing it to the market to ensure its safety. Just about every person who reads the science sees how this is non-toxic when taken orally, however I think this study may help people relax a bit(if they still believe it may be toxic):




    Ok...so do any of you take Creatine? Yes, I know you all do.

    Do any of you take Niacin? The vast majority of you do...and if not, you can get a great dose in MANY products out there, or even on its own.



    Basically here are the facts:

    #1 - NMDA can not cause excitotoxicity when given orally.
    #2 - NMDA excitotoxicity was proven to be basically non-existant in vivo by simply adding in creatine(at a 1% solution nontheless!) and niacin.


    so...Intimidate is 100% safe/healthy. If you're at ALL concerned about it, just make sure you're taking 1-5g of creatine, and a small dose of niacin each day and...BOOM!

    Dude, I really don't even wanna give you a hard time right now but I have to call out bad science when I see it. That's not what this board is about, go run that kinda game to the 14 year olds on bodybuilding.com

    First off, you're saying that NMDA isn't excitotoxic at all and you back that up with a study which measures the effect of creatine on NMDA INDUCED EXCITOTOXICTY. How ironic can you get? Unless you have documentation on their methodology showing that they directly injected the NMDA, this abstract is making a case against your argument, if anything.

    Second, you said excitotoxicity was "basically non-existant" with the coadministration of creatine and niacin. Here's the actual graph from your study showing the effects of creatine and niacin against the control on NMDA induced excitotoxicity http://ars.sciencedirect.com/content...020382-gr2.gif


    What does that reduction work out to? maybe 20-30% reduction vs control? Is that really your definition of "basically non-existant" bro?


    Listen kids, not everyone on these boards has the time to decipher medical journals, that's why they come here for advice. It ruins the whole principle of these boards when someone tries to throw studies around and totally twist them around because the lay-person cant understand them. Let me take all of the science mumbo jumbo out of the equation here and simplify the argument vaughn is trying to make right now...


    In a nutshell, his post is saying..."Our product isnt poisionous to your brain because there's a study that shows when you take creatine and niacin, it makes it less 30 percent less poisionous to your brain. My product is meant to be injested orally, while the abstract I provided doesn't specificy how it was given to the test subjects which makes it completely irrelevant, if not contrary to my argument altogether."
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    Quote Originally Posted by magick69 View Post
    why stop using a proven product DAA for an unproven one (meaning there are NONE studies that have tested the toxicity and effectiveness in humans of NMDA)

    ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????

    i cannot believe why people do that

    Because a supplement company tells them they have a new form that is "better". Happens all the time. Look at creatine. Mono is fine and people still take the newer crap because they are fooled by the supplement company "gurus".
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    Quote Originally Posted by J19891

    Dude, I really don't even wanna give you a hard time right now but I have to call out bad science when I see it. That's not what this board is about, go run that kinda game to the 14 year olds on bodybuilding.com

    First off, you're saying that NMDA isn't excitotoxic at all and you back that up with a study which measures the effect of creatine on NMDA INDUCED EXCITOTOXICTY. How ironic can you get? Unless you have documentation on their methodology showing that they directly injected the NMDA, this abstract is making a case against your argument, if anything.

    Second, you said excitotoxicity was "basically non-existant" with the coadministration of creatine and niacin. Here's the actual graph from your study showing the effects of creatine and niacin against the control on NMDA induced excitotoxicity http://ars.sciencedirect.com/content...020382-gr2.gif

    What does that reduction work out to? maybe 20-30% reduction vs control? Is that really your definition of "basically non-existant" bro?

    Listen kids, not everyone on these boards has the time to decipher medical journals, that's why they come here for advice. It ruins the whole principle of these boards when someone tries to throw studies around and totally twist them around because the lay-person cant understand them. Let me take all of the science mumbo jumbo out of the equation here and simply the argument vaughn is trying to make right now...

    In a nutshell, his post is saying..."Our product isnt poisionous to your brain because there's a study that shows when you take creatine and niacin, it makes it less 30 percent less poisionous to your brain. My product is meant to be injested orally, while the abstract I provided doesn't specificy how it was given to the test subjects which makes it completely irrelevant, if not contrary to my argument altogether."
    What degree does Vaughn have in nutritional science? I know... Nmda for dummies. He'll do anything to sell a bottles of intimidate or is called placebodate. Hey free bottles of air to first 50!!!!!! Sell sell sell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    NMDA-induced neurotoxicity in a human model is very poorly understood, and you probably won't be seeing a safety study any time in the near future due to variation in human experience and the invasiveness of such an experiment. The in vitro data leads me to believe that toxicity won't be an issue at the doses being supplemented, but as a "safety net," you could always consider supplementing low-dosed Huperzine A or Agmatine.
    i love how people always skip over your posts, when you make a solid point
    Quote Originally Posted by J19891 View Post
    Dude, I really don't even wanna give you a hard time right now but I have to call out bad science when I see it. That's not what this board is about, go run that kinda game to the 14 year olds on bodybuilding.com
    lulz.....you're kidding right? out of all the boards i post on, this has got to be one of the WORST as far as "broscientists" and stuff like that goes.....some of the arguments that STILL take place on here about ingredients like arginine and glutamine prove this point over and over. yes, there are some pretty smart guys on this board, but they are outnumbered by broscience followers
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldwanus View Post
    out of all the boards i post on, this has got to be one of the WORST as far as "broscientists" and stuff like that goes.....some of the arguments that STILL take place on here about ingredients like arginine and glutamine prove this point over and over. yes, there are some pretty smart guys on this board, but they are outnumbered by broscience followers
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldwanus View Post
    i love how people always skip over your posts, when you make a solid point lulz.....you're kidding right? out of all the boards i post on, this has got to be one of the WORST as far as "broscientists" and stuff like that goes.....some of the arguments that STILL take place on here about ingredients like arginine and glutamine prove this point over and over. yes, there are some pretty smart guys on this board, but they are outnumbered by broscience followers
    lol idk about all that. Sure there are morons, but the world is full of those. Anyone who's spent a day in rush hour traffic or walked from one end of a wal-mart to another knows that. In my experience though, the posters on this board are more knowledgeable than average. I'll see stuff on bb.com sometimes like "Is creatine steroids?" that makes me drop face first into my keyboard. I just don't find that level of stupid 'round these here parts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J19891

    lol idk about all that. Sure there are morons, but the world is full of those. Anyone who's spent a day in rush hour traffic or walked from one end of a wal-mart to another knows that. In my experience though, the posters on this board are more knowledgeable than average. I'll see stuff on bb.com sometimes like "Is creatine steroids?" that makes me drop face first into my keyboard. I just don't find that level of stupid 'round these here parts.
    That's because some of these supplement company reps not gonna mention any names...... Vaughn......oops........feed on the innocent barely 18 and try to shrink their testicles to meet their criteria as a potential customer and try to suck them. We don't sell steroids anymore but try this it's a 100% better I guarantee it. Ugh I did read that it was better...... Maybe PA said so. Anyway ugh take this and then if you can't sleep take zma and then take it earlier in the day.... Ugh maybe now you can stack it with test v2. I promise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldwanus View Post
    i love how people always skip over your posts, when you make a solid point lulz.....you're kidding right? out of all the boards i post on, this has got to be one of the WORST as far as "broscientists" and stuff like that goes.....some of the arguments that STILL take place on here about ingredients like arginine and glutamine prove this point over and over. yes, there are some pretty smart guys on this board, but they are outnumbered by broscience followers


    So true.
  

  
 

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