Open Challenge to all Suppliment Companies (Especially those making ProHormones). - AnabolicMinds.com

Open Challenge to all Suppliment Companies (Especially those making ProHormones).

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    Open Challenge to all Suppliment Companies (Especially those making ProHormones).


    The one thing that the market seems to be completely devoid of at the moment is an OTC SERM. I understand there are products with "SERM-like" properties, and stacks that work well for some cycles/compounds/users that do not contain a SERM. This still doesn't explain the lack of a compound that can be sold as a suppliment that works as a true SERM. I mean, if it is possible to make prohormones that use the body's own enzymes to create the end hormone, is it that much more difficult to do the same for a SERM? Orally available would be the best, but even a transdermal OTC actual SERM would be better than nothing OTC at all right?

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    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
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    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
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    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*

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    As an aside, I'll be willing to donate my time and (however limited) knowledge in helping realize this goal.

    ManBeast
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    Transerdermal seems to be the best way to deliver supps. I hope someone in the near future can create something like this.

    Lets see it guys!
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    agreed 100% would be nice to have something otc and not have to second guess new/cheaper sources.
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    Research chem site owners just put out a hit on manbeast. or at least a nice beating that would keep him quiet in the future
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    SERM molecules like clomid and nolva are not a common molecule type found naturally or easily manipulated or predictable. It's a lot easier to study and manipulate a steroid backbone molecule into a new prohormone or AI since we know so much about them, and it's also easy to find steroid backbone molecules naturally if you want something compliant.

    The active in Erase is a suicide steroidal AI that is a naturally occurring metabolite with extremely strong AI properties.

    B. diffusa, the second active in Erase Pro has shown it can block estrogen from binding to its receptor in vitro and performed very well. This is he mechanism that SERMs work through.
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    The compounds out now just don't have the huge amount of research backing them like pharm SERMs.

    That doesn't mean that the compounds in Erase Pro or other naturally occurring SERMs aren't effective. People just recommend them due to availability and solid data supporting their use.

    For someone who doesn't have the option of pharm compounds, Erase Pro does make a solid PCT for most cycles.
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    I wanna see pp make a topical legal serm
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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    SERM molecules like clomid and nolva are not a common molecule type found naturally or easily manipulated or predictable. It's a lot easier to study and manipulate a steroid backbone molecule into a new prohormone or AI since we know so much about them, and it's also easy to find steroid backbone molecules naturally if you want something compliant.

    The active in Erase is a suicide steroidal AI that is a naturally occurring metabolite with extremely strong AI properties.

    B. diffusa, the second active in Erase Pro has shown it can block estrogen from binding to its receptor in vitro and performed very well. This is he mechanism that SERMs work through.
    Not trying to bash PES or anything cause I love you guys (Bought 3 erase pros in the presale promo).

    Would you feel it "safe" for someone who is thoroughly shut down (a normal 12 week Test-E cycle), Use Erase Pro in place of a SERM? I mean not solo (as many of us run natty products to keep gains in PCT).

    Do you feel that it would be "possible" that it is infact "enough"?
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    I'm not doubting the possibility that the ingredient in Erase PRO might be the savior, but at this point in time, I'm not going to guinea pig it without some serious studies showing it can accomplish everything the current SERMs can.

    Again, this is not a knock at PES, I happen to love, reccomend and use many of their products, I'm just a "show me the carfax" kinda guy

    And I doubt that this will put the research companies out of business, there will still be many who stick to the tried and true unless the OTC is vastly superior in every way shape or form. Chances are (due to R&D costs at the least) it will be more expensive, but there's always a price to pay for convenience.

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    Last edited by ManBeast; 01-29-2012 at 09:16 PM.
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    would it be wise (or i guess not completely stupid) to take Erase Pro with clomid?
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    Quote Originally Posted by steppinRazor
    would it be wise (or i guess not completely stupid) to take Erase Pro with clomid?
    My next pct will be along these lines. Cept I'll use torem instead of clomid.
    I will run erase pro during my natty phase to see how it affects me first though.

    But will it be as effective alone?hmm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    My next pct will be along these lines. Cept I'll use torem instead of clomid.
    I will run erase pro during my natty phase to see how it affects me first though.

    But will it be as effective alone?hmm.
    awesome bro - you should enjoy it as a stand alone.. i know i have.

    in the past i ran erase a couple weeks into my pct after beeing on nolva with daa..
    i was told it was best not to run an AI right at the start of pct, in fear of some gyno rebound.. doesnt really sound legit the more i talk about it.
    anyhow, since erase pro is said to have SERM properties i figured, hell why not just stack it along with some clomid from the start?? i mean it couldnt hurt right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by steppinRazor View Post
    would it be wise (or i guess not completely stupid) to take Erase Pro with clomid?
    I'm gonna do this along with probably the PP TRS PLUS anabeta and DAA, sort of a conventional PCT (clomid), legal PCT (TRS/erase) and sort of a "natural cycle" (anabeta/DAA) all in one. why not maximize your PCT time instead of just wasting it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by steppinRazor View Post
    would it be wise (or i guess not completely stupid) to take Erase Pro with clomid?
    I don't think you need both.
    On the road to bench pressing 400 pounds Currently over 360...
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    yeah im doing erase pro + DAA + Toco 8 + Anabeta for my andromass PCT. i start PCT in under three weeks
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1balla View Post
    yeah im doing erase pro + DAA + Toco 8 + Anabeta for my andromass PCT. i start PCT in under three weeks
    I'm going to run Bio Forge Pro Max and Abliderate Advanced for my Andro Drive and Andro Hard PCT.
    On the road to bench pressing 400 pounds Currently over 360...
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6 View Post
    I'm gonna do this along with probably the PP TRS PLUS anabeta and DAA, sort of a conventional PCT (clomid), legal PCT (TRS/erase) and sort of a "natural cycle" (anabeta/DAA) all in one. why not maximize your PCT time instead of just wasting it!
    god damn son!! thats one hell ofa post cycle you got lined up there. overlkill?? i think not. should be smooth sailing,, might have just as much fun as your cycle
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6

    I'm gonna do this along with probably the PP TRS PLUS anabeta and DAA, sort of a conventional PCT (clomid), legal PCT (TRS/erase) and sort of a "natural cycle" (anabeta/DAA) all in one. why not maximize your PCT time instead of just wasting it!
    I wouldn't take sustain alpha with erase. And no need to buy more daa, trs has tcf 1 included
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    Quote Originally Posted by steppinRazor View Post
    god damn son!! thats one hell ofa post cycle you got lined up there. overlkill?? i think not. should be smooth sailing,, might have just as much fun as your cycle
    yeah that is the intent lol....nobody likes PCT....."cruising" is an alternative.....but if you do an all out PCT plus other natural stuff? hey you might make some damn gains in PCT
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1balla View Post
    I wouldn't take sustain alpha with erase. And no need to buy more daa, trs has tcf 1 included
    yeah that TRS has a lot of good stuff in it now with the new additions....i got a bulk DAA i've been using with just about everything the past 2-3 months....but I was going to stop taking it during the epistane only portion, then start it up again in PCT......its so cheap I figure why not. But yeah, if I could save the Erase Pro that would be nice....I thought it would work well though with the other stuff. I make a lot of estrogen over here.
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    Subbed for the good discussion.

    I have my eyes on the new Erasepro
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    i think this would be a great addition to the market lol.. would make it 10x easier and more trustworthy to get serms :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    Not trying to bash PES or anything cause I love you guys (Bought 3 erase pros in the presale promo).

    Would you feel it "safe" for someone who is thoroughly shut down (a normal 12 week Test-E cycle), Use Erase Pro in place of a SERM? I mean not solo (as many of us run natty products to keep gains in PCT).

    Do you feel that it would be "possible" that it is infact "enough"?
    Time will tell once the steroid guys use it more. The same questions were raised with the Erase ingredient a year and a half ago, and here we are today with guys using it on cycle constantly
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    Brid is always cruising...
    Always good to have a SERM on hand, so they say
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1balla View Post
    I wanna see pp make a topical legal serm
    Why topical? Wiping stuff on your skin sucks...too much variance

    Quote Originally Posted by steppinRazor View Post
    would it be wise (or i guess not completely stupid) to take Erase Pro with clomid?
    I wouldnt go full dose on the clomid. There is data on Nolva + Clomid combo. They are both SERMs, yes, but they dont work the same. Clomid is interesting stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    Brid is always cruising...
    Always good to have a SERM on hand, so they say
    "a couple of dbols a day (or anavars) keeps the PCT away!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6 View Post
    "a couple of dbols a day (or anavars) keeps the PCT away!"
    lol
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    Yeah, I'm a huge fan of what PES has brought to the table time and time again. I'd volunteer to test out Erase Pro as a pure PCT, but I'm not in a position to get any kind of HRT/TRT if it doesn't work, and I truly do love my nuts... we've been together a long time

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    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManBeast View Post
    Yeah, I'm a huge fan of what PES has brought to the table time and time again. I'd volunteer to test out Erase Pro as a pure PCT, but I'm not in a position to get any kind of HRT/TRT if it doesn't work, and I truly do love my nuts... we've been together a long time

    ManBeast

    In practically all scientific studies done where test and other androgens were administered they simply stopped their usage after testing.

    The HPTA in most cases spontaneously corrects itself once hormones have been discontinued, PCT just speeds this process up. There are few case studies reporting permanent shutdown, and those were bodybuilders who used drugs for years at a time.
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    Agreed, but the shorter the duration of shutdown the easier it is to hold onto gains, so a SERM is win to me.

    ManBeast
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    Everyone clamoring for the next transdermal... you will probably not see to many more TD's coming soon. It is a bit more risky to put out TD's now. TD's do not fall under the standard DSHEA that the oral supplements... they also fall under the cosmetic's guidelines as you are not supplementing anything dietary.

    Sure there are TD's around.. but don't be suprised when they are gone because the FDA may take 10 years to find someone skirting the regs, but they always do.
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    I don't understand why people are opposed to just using clomid? It's cheap. Easily attainable. Fairly proven, and relatively well researched.

    Is it still the legal uncertainty?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Everyone clamoring for the next transdermal... you will probably not see to many more TD's coming soon. It is a bit more risky to put out TD's now. TD's do not fall under the standard DSHEA that the oral supplements... they also fall under the cosmetic's guidelines as you are not supplementing anything dietary.

    Sure there are TD's around.. but don't be suprised when they are gone because the FDA may take 10 years to find someone skirting the regs, but they always do.
    Agree. Not to mention they are a huge pain in the ass to apply as natty mentioned but you also have the risk of contact transfer.
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    Recent summary of SERMs and hypogonadism....

    Med Hypotheses. 2009 Jun;72(6):723-8. Epub 2009 Feb 23.

    Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism--towards a unified hypothesis of anabolic steroid action.

    Tan RS, Scally MC.


    Source

    HPT/Axis Inc., 1660 Beaconshire Road, Houston, TX 77077, USA.


    Abstract

    Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism (ASIH) is the functional incompetence of the testes with subnormal or impaired production of testosterone and/or spermatozoa due to administration of androgens or anabolic steroids. Anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS), both prescription and nonprescription, use is a cause of ASIH. Current AAS use includes prescribing for wasting associated conditions. Nonprescription AAS use is also believed to lead to AAS dependency or addiction. Together these two uses account for more than four million males taking AAS in one form or another for a limited duration. While both of these uses deal with the effects of AAS administration they do not account for the period after AAS cessation. The signs and symptoms of ASIH directly impact the observation of an increase in muscle mass and muscle strength from AAS administration and also reflect what is believed to demonstrate AAS dependency. More significantly, AAS prescribing after cessation adds the comorbid condition of hypogonadism to their already existing chronic illness. ASIH is critical towards any future planned use of AAS or similar compound to effect positive changes in muscle mass and muscle strength as well as an understanding for what has been termed anabolic steroid dependency. The further understanding and treatments that mitigate or prevent ASIH could contribute to androgen therapies for wasting associated diseases and stopping nonprescription AAS use. This paper proposes a unified hypothesis that the net effects for anabolic steroid administration must necessarily include the period after their cessation or ASIH.


    PMID: 19231088 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] [/QUOTE]

    Future treatments
    A treatment goal of HPTA restoration will have its basis in the
    regulation and control of testosterone production. The HPTA has
    two components, both spermatogenesis and testosterone production.
    In males, luteinizing hormone (LH) secretion by the pituitary
    positively stimulates testicular testosterone (T) production; follicle-
    stimulating hormone (FSH) stimulates testicular spermatozoa
    production. The pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin-releasing hormone
    (GnRH) from the hypothalamus stimulates LH and FSH
    secretion. In general, absent FSH, there is no spermatozoa production;
    absent LH, there is no testosterone production. Regulation of
    the secretion of GnRH, FSH, and LH occurs partially by the negative
    feedback of testosterone and estradiol at the level of the hypothalamo-
    pituitary. Estradiol has a much larger, inhibitory effect than
    testosterone, being 200-fold more effective in suppressing LH
    secretion [5761].

    In the case of ASIH, where the individual suffers from functional
    hypogonadism and the belief for eventual return of function, treatment
    is directed at HPTA restoration. A medical quandary for physicians
    presented with hypogonadal patients secondary to AAS
    administration is there is currently no FDA approved drug to restore
    HPTA function. Standard treatment to this point has been testosterone
    replacement therapy (TRT), human chorionic
    gonadotropin (hCG), conservative therapy (watchful waiting or
    do nothing), or off-label prescribing of aromatase inhibitors or
    selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERM).

    The primary drawback of testosterone replacement and hCG
    administration is that this therapy is infinite in nature. These treatments
    will remedy the signs and symptoms associated with hypogonadism,
    but do not alleviate the need for a life-long commitment
    to therapy. Further, administration serves to further HPTA suppression.

    Conservative therapy (watchful waiting or do nothing) is
    the probably worst case option as this does nothing to treat the patient
    with ASIH. Also, conservative therapy will have the undesirable
    result of the nonprescription AAS user to return to AAS use
    as a means to avoid ASIH signs and symptoms.

    The aromatase inhibitors demonstrate the ability to cause an
    elevation of the gonadotropins and secondarily serum testosterone
    [62]. The administration of SERMs is a common treatment in attempts
    to restore the HPTA because they increase LH secretion
    from the pituitary that leads to increased local testosterone production
    [6367].

    Guay has used clomiphene citrate as therapy for erection dysfunction
    and secondary hypogonadism. Patients received clomiphene
    citrate 50 mg per day for 4 months in an attempt to raise
    their testosterone level [68]. Clomiphene has been reported in a
    case study to reverse andropause secondary to anabolicandrogenic
    steroid use [69]. The patient received clomiphene citrate
    50 mg twice per day in an attempt to raise his testosterone level.
    The patient when followed up after two months had a relapse,
    tiredness and loss of libido, after discontinuing clomiphene citrate.
    There are case study reports demonstrating the effectiveness of
    the combination of clomiphene and tamoxifen in HPTA restoration
    after stopping AAS administration [7073]. Clomiphene is a mixture
    of the trans (enclomiphene) and cis (zuclomiphene) enantiomers,
    which have opposite effects upon the estradiol receptor
    [74].
    Enclomiphene is an estradiol antagonist, while zuclomiphene
    is an estradiol agonist. The addition of tamoxifen to clomiphene
    might be expected to increase the overall antagonism of the estradiol
    receptor.
    Enclomiphene alone might be a good candidate to restore
    HPTA function.
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