Beta Alanine and Taurine Interactions Discussed.
- 12-08-2011, 05:50 AM
Beta Alanine and Taurine Interactions Discussed.
Ive seen recently a number of individuals bring up the old topic of the interactions of simultaneousand Tuarine supplementation.
I did some quick research using the good old google, pubmed and here on our forums via the search function and found some calming information...
Id like to share what I found and open up a topic of discussion for others to share pertinent info on the subject.iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html
- 12-08-2011, 05:52 AM
here is a wonderful article found at the site below.
March 10, 2009 by Mark Tallon
Is BETA-ALANINE Safe?
Despite the volume of research currently carried out on (a selection including my own papers) in relation to exercise based performance enhancement, one issues that still concerns me is safety!
To date we have data showing that when given for up to 12 weeks does not cause and measured change in those clinical blood markers widely used to show safety. However, 12 weeks is relatively short duration, so what could be a danger from long term use?
Well there are a few studies that may provide some insight!
What dangers: Is a history of use enough?
One thing I often heard is ‘x nutrient has been consumed for years in our general diet and at a dose found in dietary supplements‘, as such it must be safe. However, this generalization is ultimately flawed as sodium and saturated fats are also abundant in our diets and we know the consequences in relation to cardiovascular disease when taken in excess. The take home is natural is not always synonymous with healthy.
Similarly, is abundant in meat sources and especially those animals (meat source) exposed to prolonged periods of hypoxia (sprinters or diving mammals).Taking the premise that we could get beta-alanine from food in a quantity to match the commonly recommended supplement dose (3.2g/d) would mean we need to consumer 400g of whale beef or 600g of turkey. Is that really likely? If it is not, have our bodies really adapted to getting an isolated nutrient such as beta-alanine in that type of quantity?
So what could be the dangers of consuming high does beta-alanine?
Well studies by Allo et al, Harada et al. and Dawson et al, all show that beta-alanine supplementation can deplete cardiac levels. is very much linked to efficient contractile function (via calcium ion homeostasis) of both skeletal muscle and cardiac muscle and significant depletion could impair heart function.
The problem with these studies is that they use a dose around 25x that used in human studies and over short period of time (circa 5 days). However, although 25x higher in dose, human studies provide a supplementation period which is about 17x longer. As such over a 9 month period we would maybe take in as much beta-alanine as in the rodent trials. What would be the effect of this on humans and health?
At present we don’t know! We do know that in short term (<12 weeks ) although we see increased plasma taurine levels (suggestive of inhibition of taurine uptake) there is no effect on skeletal muscle taurine levels or in the urine (Harris et al. 2006).
The problem here is the heart’s taurine content is relatively low in relation to the total skeletal muscle pool. As such if you where loosing taurine from the heart during high dose beta-alanine supplementation it would likely not be detectable (plasma an urinary taurine levels are highly variable, which would mask small but significant losses of taurine).
Cycle your Beta-alanine!
The answer in overcoming any potential issues with taurine depletion is 2 fold and can be related to some recent work. In a trial from Belgium (Baguet et al. 2009) researches have shown for the first time that following 6 weeks of beta-alanine supplementation the resulting increase in muscle carnosine (~30%) reverts to baseline levels within 3 week following cessation of supplementation. This shows us that we can de-load and load relatively quickly with beta-alanine supplements. During the de-loading period we could then supplement with taurine which in many animal studies has been shown to effectively increase muscle taurine concentrations. This would help replace any lost muscle/cardiac taurine, which may have occurred during beta-alanine supplementation. Unfortunately, in humans the research (Galloway et al. 2008) demonstrates that taurine supplementation is not effective in increasing muscle taurine (<2g).
Given meat contains both beta-alanine and taurine is a safe guess that we can take both nutrients at the same time so potentially taurine when given in a slow release (meat) form will increase muscle taurine levels (we don’t know for sure). Alternatively, higher doses of taurine (>1.5-2g/d) maybe required. My advice 3g/d for 1-4 weeks should do the trick (not evidence but based of my own biopsy data when a PhD student when this type of does seemed to tripled my muscle taurine stores).
On a final note…
Beta-alanine ethyl ester!
As always everyone is looking for the next best thing and like creatine beta-alanine is well absorbed into the muscle, however we are already seeing the appearance of beta-alanine ethyl ester. A word of caution…
In 2001 a rodent study (Keria et al) demonstrated that when beta-alanine and especially alcohol (ethyl ester) co-administered with beta-alanine, significantly increased homocysteine and cysteine excretion into urine throughout the 28-day period of ethanol administration. The study pointed to hepatic dysfunction, not a great health effect.
So until we know more about these new forms of beta-alanine lets get our heads round the long term use issues of beta-alanine….
Until next time!iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html
12-08-2011, 06:11 AM
This article here uses a couple of the studies I found on pubmed to show that not only is the slight Taurine depletion by Beta Alanine not detrimental to health, it is in fact HEALTHY in supplying the liver with increased anti oxidants and liver detoxifying agents.
Does beta-alanine protect organs?
Beta-alanine is best known for its role in improving exercise efficiency by reducing the buildup of hydrogen ions, or acid, in muscle. The increase in acidity produces muscle fatigue by inhibiting the function of energy-producing enzymes in muscle. Beta-alanine works because it’s a direct nutrient precursor of L-carnosine synthesis, which is a major intramuscular buffer.
But beta-alanine has lesser-known functions in the body, such as antioxidant activity and the ability to reduce the accumulation of beta-amyloid, a protein that is directly related to the onset of Alzheimer’s disease. A new study shows that beta-alanine may also help protect the liver from the toxic effects of various substances.
The study found that beta-alanine decreased the liver content of another amino acid, taurine, by 60 percent. Taurine and beta-alanine compete for uptake into the body because they share a transport system. Taking taurine with beta-alanine results in the rapid excretion of taurine in the urine. In effect, beta-alanine blocks the normal reuptake of taurine in the kidneys. Taurine is synthesized in the body from sulfur-containing amino acids, mainly cysteine and methionine. When beta-alanine causes the body to excrete taurine, the body responds to the loss of taurine by retaining more cysteine.
That’s significant because cysteine is required for the synthesis of glutathione, a major cellular antioxidant and one of the primary detoxifying elements found in the liver. In the new study, mice were given 3 percent beta-alanine in their drinking water for one week, then were exposed to carbon tetrachloride, a substance known to cause liver toxicity. Other mice didn’t receive the beta-alanine. The mice that didn’t get the beta-alanine had elevated liver enzyme levels indicative of impending liver damage. Those that received the beta-alanine, however, had no liver enzyme elevations.
The study showed that beta-alanine increased both glutathione and taurine levels in the liver, likely through increasing cysteine availability. So beta-alanine may be a natural liver protector, since the major job of the liver is to degrade toxins. Beta-alanine may ease the work of the liver by promoting increased liver glutathione.
Another new study looked at the effects of beta-alanine in women who train. Twenty-two women got either beta-alanine or a placebo for 28 days. They underwent various tests, such as fatigue threshold and maximal oxygen consumption, before engaging in a submaximal cycling bout. Those in the beta-alanine group showed a 13.9 percent increase in ventilatory threshold, a 12.6 percent increase in time to fatigue and a 2.5 percent increase in time to exhaustion. Those in the placebo group showed no changes from baseline values.
The study shows that women respond much as men do to beta-alanine supplements. The increased exercise capacity in both sexes is related to the higher muscle carnosine stores they experienced after using beta-alanine supplements.
Lee, S.Y., et al. (2006). Effect of beta-alanine administration on carbon tetrachloride-induced acute hepatotoxicity. Amino Acids. In press.
Stout, J.R., et al. (2006). Effects of beta-alanine supplementation on the onset of neuromuscular fatigue and ventilatory threshold in women. Amino Acids. In press.
iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html
12-08-2011, 06:23 AM
Heres yet another great article showcasing the fact that there may not be negative interactions between Beta Alanine and Taurine, in fact conversely that simultaneous dosing replicating the natural sourcing of both these Beta Amino acids that occur in our daily diet can create a better effect altogether then either dosed separately.(re: oxidative stress from BA)
Beta Alanine Suffocates Cardiomyocytes, Taurine Lets Them Breath Again: Taurine Regulates Mitochondrial Protein Synthesis and Protects Mitochondria Against Superoxide Generation.
Image 1: Beta alanine and taurine;
the former interferes with uptake
and reactions that involve the latter.
Having listened to the last installment of the Amino Acids for Super Humans series you are already familiar with the antagonism of the two beta-amino acids ("beta-" indicates that those are not part of the 22 proteinogenic amino acids) beta alanine and taurine. Being structurally very similar, both share a single transporter, so that high levels of beta alanine decrease/inhibit taurine uptake.
Like a partial agonist, beta alanine also interferes with the actions of taurine by inhibiting reactions that involve the former, so that the cardiomyocytes Jong and his colleagues from the Universities of South Alabama, USA, and Kobe, Japan, incubated with 5mM beta alanine for 48h induced a 45% decrease in taurine content in the neonatal rat cardiomyocytes. The sudden lack of taurine "enhanced superoxide generation, the inactivation of the oxidant sensitive enzyme, aconitase, and the oxidation of glutathione" (Jong. 2011), or, put simply, induced mitochondrial oxidative stress.
Associated with the increase in oxidative stress was a decline in electron transport activity, with the
activities of respiratory chain complexes I and III declining 50–65% and oxygen consumption falling 30%.
The decline in the activity of ND5 and ND6 respiratory chain complex subunits produced a "bottleneck" effect. Its almost as if you were trying to breath through a mask with two automated, taurine-powered openings. If you run out of "fuel", the valves in the openings won't open completely, you will gasping for air and (I bet) will become severely stressed.
Figure 1: Oxygen consumption [in % of baseline] in control and in cardiomyocytes incubated with 5mM beta alanine.
(data adapted from Jong. 2011)
Before you do now flush all your beta alanine and beta alanine containing products down the toilette, consider this: The existing data on the safety of beta alanine makes it quite clear that taken in individual (even large doses) your body is well able to avoid that the supplemental beta alanine "floods" your heart muscles, depletes their taurine stores and suffocates their mitochondria. How so? Well, firstly it can distribute the beta alanine over millions of brain and muscle cells (something that obviously could not happen in the petri-dish with isolated cardiomyocytes the scientists used in this experiment), where it will ideally bind to histidine and form the potent intracellular buffer and anti-oxidant carnosine. And secondly, your body can mimic Jong, Azuma & Schaffer, who added 5mM of taurine to the solution. Now, with one molecule of taurine "buffering" each of the beta alanine molecules, the negative effects of beta alanine on the electron transport chain were blocked.
As I have emphasized before, observations like these should make you reconsider the usefulness of isolated nutrient supplementation. Our understanding of the complex regulatory mechanisms and interaction that are taking place in our bodies are still very limited. Especially long term (or high dose) effects of many "supplements" (including amino acids, vitamins, fatty acids, herbs, etc.) have not been thoroughly investigated for many of the commercially available and, as it is the case with beta alanine, scientifically backed ergogenics, nootropics, fat burners etc. Oftentimes, looking at the nutrient-complex nature has wisely attached to what we ignorantly isolated and put into a tablet or powder, would suffice to know that, an amino acid like beta alanine, which occurs naturally in relatively low doses in slowly absorbed whole foods, mostly meat products, which obviously also contain taurine, was probably not meant to be ingested at high doses in isolated powder form. Co-ingestion (not necessarily at the same time) of adequate amounts of taurine or its precursors, methionine, respectively cysteine, would thus be the imperative prerequisite to benefit from the proven ergogenic effects (esp. during high-intensity exercise) of beta alanine.
12-08-2011, 10:01 AM
Could this possibly cause epic sulfur smelling farts? srs questionTaurine is synthesized in the body from sulfur-containing amino acids, mainly cysteine and methionine. When beta-alanine causes the body to excrete taurine, the body responds to the loss of taurine by retaining more cysteine.
12-08-2011, 04:03 PM
12-08-2011, 04:09 PM
They use the same receptor and compete with eachother if I remember correctly. I think the trick would be to use BA about 4 hours before taurine, or maybe it was the other way around
12-08-2011, 05:08 PM
They also have studies showing that congruent dosing does not negatively effect the uptake of one or the other, apparently there is "enough to go around"
Staggering doses WOULD weed out any small amount of competition though.
12-08-2011, 05:10 PM
12-08-2011, 05:18 PM
12-08-2011, 08:05 PM
12-08-2011, 10:02 PM
meh... I havnt even checked that product out yet... personally, with very few exceptions that are just as economical for the included ing., I prefer to make my preworkouts myself from my own ingredients and BCAAs.....
But knowing to avoid this is good....
12-08-2011, 10:09 PM
Great thread. Now I don't feel bad taking my 4g BA and 5g taurine a day thinking they just flush each other out.
12-08-2011, 10:16 PM
12-09-2011, 01:53 AM
I remember this topic of discussion a couple years ago when BA really started to hit the scene and the first studies folks pulled on BA was the fact it was a transport inhibitor of Taurine....
well of course, as is the case with many things, it doesnt play out the same in the body as it does in a petri dish...
The body has plenty of mechanisms available within itself to deal with even unnatural amounts of these things creating a negative effect....
If one were to eat primarily animals that were endurance based(mentioned were sprinters and mammalian deep divers like whale) then they would naturally take in a considerably higher amount of BA (by way of carnosine breaking down in the guy to BA) to Taurine given the animal is comprised of a majority of type 2 muscle fiber. (type 2 muscle fiber is higher in Carnosine then taurine, while type one is conversely higher in Taurine then Carnosine).....
The body would of course benefit from this considering what we know about BA and also would still get an adequate amount of Taurine, as stated in the second article, by retaining more of the building blocks to create it as well.... and the fact that BA and carnosine levels were not inhibited with Taurine dosing shows there is more then enough of the transporter to support both....
Just saw these concerns of negative interactions cropping up again, in more then one thread, and figured it would be a good time to bring this subject matter back up.
12-09-2011, 02:54 AM
this is common knowledge to me and I cycle beta alanine and while off I take taurine
beta alanine depletes taurine levels , yes Ive known this quite some time and have been employing the cycling off of beta alanine
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12-09-2011, 03:19 AM
Still, current studies only place constant BA use at 12 weeks and its shown to have no negative effects or markers at this duration.... Also it is shown that BA's effects last at least 3 weeks after dosing is ceased (the better you respond to BA in the first place, the longer the effects last) so this gives you plenty of time to cycle off a few weeks and get back on and never miss a beat re: benefits of increased carnosine levels...
Im looking forward to even more long term studies though and more in depth studies at the rate at which taurine is depleted in HUMAN, in vivo, studies compared to the supplementation of an outside source to negate these effects, as well as the bodies ability to synthesize more tuarine all by itself in the liver....
Current studies show that there is enough transport enzymes available (and such an abundance of Histidine) that its not likely that there is even a considerble need for concern of depleting your tuarine levels to dangerous amounts....
still cycling and co-supplementation of Taurine and high meat containing diets will aid in ensuring you dont have any issues till we have absolute and long term studies...
12-09-2011, 03:24 AM
Damn I've been using about 3g of BA and 4g of Taurine pre-workouts, great postings! looks like I'll be switching up my dosing.
Core Nutritionals Representative
12-09-2011, 03:40 AM
1. people whose carnosine levels stay higher longer and taking off 4-8 weeks doesnt effect them much
2. people who carnisone levels drop after just a few short weeks of discontinuing beta alanine
Of course this takes testing your beta alanine (and taurine levels if yu want to do the ba/taurine thing) however from my years of taking it I think that I fall somewhere in between 1 and 2; although i cant prove it, I seem to feel a bit better when I take off beta alanine and supplement with taurine, after a long time on ba I feel more dried up so who knows it may be good precontest, and taurine I feel like I have more water in my body, which taurine does aid in hydration or something right? I also feel a calming effect on taurine in large doses. I have not got my ba/taurine levels tested so this is just something I try to pinpoint beest i can with my own body
will your body do the same? I don't know, just telling you my thoughts and my body-could I be wrong? totally
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12-09-2011, 09:35 AM
12-09-2011, 07:15 PM
Awesome bro! Thanks for adding those graphs!....Originally Posted by itzDodge
Goes to show that for most a couple weeks off as an extra precaution couldn't hurt every 12 weeks since carnosine levels are likelier to remain elevated while taurine only supplementation is employed....
I still think congruent daily dosing, staggered beta pre taurine post if is a must, of both is optimal and will not detract from the benefits of either as much as we think.... Taurine doses should be pretty high though, like at least 5-10g...
12-14-2011, 03:13 AM
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02-10-2012, 12:47 PM
Sorry for the bump. How long do you guys recommend on/off cycle? Should I be cycling creatine too? I've been on creatine and beta alanine for about 15 weeks. 5g creatine a day. Beta alanine 3.2g off days and 6.4g on workout days while also supplementing 4g of taurine on workout days.
02-10-2012, 01:37 PM
Lower your BA dose on workout days to 3.2g. Also, take the taurine preworkout and distance the BA as far from that as possible.
02-10-2012, 03:26 PM
Thanks Mr.Cooper. How many SNS 501 caps servings should I take a day? 2? I think they are 2.25g, not positive. I'm just about out of Allmax bulk powder so I'm gonna switch to caps soon. Should I stay on orange triad and fish oil forever?
02-10-2012, 03:30 PM
02-10-2012, 05:30 PM
02-10-2012, 06:15 PM
My joints hurt when i take beta alanine for too long and taking a break and using taurine for a couple weeks seems to help.
I take upwards of 6 grams beta alanine daily. When i cycle of BA, I dont count the taurine, I just buy a big tub of NP taurine and put a teaspoon in my mouth at least once a day
back in 2005-06 people used to say use taurine after you work out because it calms you down(they used to refer to it as calming you down like the ying and the yang, it would be the calming down energy) why does Np recommend it pre workout? I know its for pumps; I just see no reason why it would matter when you take it.
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02-10-2012, 06:22 PM
It may give a boost of energy during you workouts. People used to use it a lot by itself before everyone became addicted to the pre-workouts we have now with enough caffeine and stimulants to kill an elephant. It can also help with mind-muscle connection. It can also help delay muscular fatigue and work as a cell volumizer.
02-10-2012, 09:08 PM
As far as joints hurting due to BA, take it at 3.2g-4g daily. No need to go up to 6 grams, and also try to space out your doses (studies showing that taking more BA at once spikes urinary excretion disproportionately).
There is no reasonable explanation for you tauine would calm you down. But yes, the best times to take taurine are pre and intraworkout, with post workout beind the second best choice. Taurine is NOT taken for pumps, as the cell volumization effects are minor at best.
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