NAC vs Na-Rala

  1. NAC vs Na-Rala


    How much more potent an antioxidant is Na-Rala? Night and day?


  2. hard to say i guess. they are both good but NA-R-ALA has many many many functions. but at what point do these anti oxidents become pro oxidents is a good question that was brought up by someone in another thread.

    also there are interactions with ALA and thyroid medicine mainly t4. so depends on how you look at it.
  3. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    H. A. Kleinveld1, P. N. M. Demacker1 and A. F. H. Stalenhoef1
    (1) Department of General Internal Medicine, University Hospital, Nijmegen, P. O. Box 9101, 6500 HB Nijmegen, The Netherlands

    Received: 24 February 1992 Accepted: 14 July 1992

    Summary - We have studied the effects of N-acetylcysteine which is thought to have antioxidant properties, on the susceptibility of low-density lipoprotein to oxidation and on whole-blood glutathione concentrations in six healthy volunteers.

    N-acetylcysteine was given orally in a dosage of at 1.2 g per day for 4 weeks, followed by 2.4 g per day for a further two weeks. The susceptibility of low-density lipoprotein toin vitro Cu2+-oxidation was determined by continuously measuring the formation of conjugated dienes. Whole-blood concentrations of reduced and oxidized glutathione were also determined.
    N-acetylcysteine had no effect on the susceptibility of LDL to oxidation. Concentrations of vitamin E in the serum and in low-density lipoprotein were not changed. Compared with controls the concentration of glutathione in N-acetylcysteine treated subjects was reduced (?48 %) and the concentration of oxidized glutathione was higher (+80%). The GSH/GSSG-ratio, a marker of oxidative stress was 83 % lower.
    The results do not support the supposed antioxidative action of N-acetylcysteine. It seems more likely that N-acetylcysteine acts as a pro-oxidant in the dosage used.
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  4. NAC as a pro oxidant... wut? This does not bode well for all of us using this for PH cycles.

    Now i'm gonna have to start looking through more studies to check oxidant status.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    NAC as a pro oxidant... wut? This does not bode well for all of us using this for PH cycles.

    Now i'm gonna have to start looking through more studies to check oxidant status.
    Acquire Na-R-ALA I suggest, many benefits other then an antioxidant


  6. Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    NAC as a pro oxidant... wut? This does not bode well for all of us using this for PH cycles.

    Now i'm gonna have to start looking through more studies to check oxidant status.
    its an antioxident but too much of any antioxidents will become a prooxident..

    NAC for a PH cycle is fine due to supposed increased glutathione levels in the liver from the AAS reducing them.

    itll serve its function.. i wouldnt worry there. the more stress, the more training, the more eating, the more antioxidents you will likely need

  7. Quote Originally Posted by itzDodge View Post
    Acquire Na-R-ALA I suggest, many benefits other then an antioxidant
    This has already been done

    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    its an antioxident but too much of any antioxidents will become a prooxident..

    NAC for a PH cycle is fine due to supposed increased glutathione levels in the liver from the AAS reducing them.

    itll serve its function.. i wouldnt worry there. the more stress, the more training, the more eating, the more antioxidents you will likely need
    I typically ingest 1g-2g of NAC daily. I guess for healthy individuals that would be an issue, but for us PH users it won't become pro oxidant at a couple grams. The study just gave me pause, and i was stupid for not thinking of healthy vs AAS use.

  8. Interesting... I take Alcar at 2 grams daily, and I'm using NAC as a substitute for Na-Rala, until I can get my hands on some more.

    Hmmmmm...

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    NAC as a pro oxidant... wut? This does not bode well for all of us using this for PH cycles.

    Now i'm gonna have to start looking through more studies to check oxidant status.
    Did you see the dose? Also, that study used a sample size of 6...very weak. I'd need the full text to make a better judgment.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Did you see the dose? Also, that study used a sample size of 6...very weak. I'd need the full text to make a better judgment.
    Study dose: 1.2g per day
    SNS NAC: 1g

    And yes i agree the sample size is pretty small. Plus it's from 1992. They didn't know crap back then.

  11. both are good.
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  12. i use them both.. but can someone enlighten me on the issues of synthroid t4, and ala? I use 100mcg of T4 in the morning, and also take 200mg R-ala about an hour later.

    Im worried/curious now.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    i use them both.. but can someone enlighten me on the issues of synthroid t4, and ala? I use 100mcg of T4 in the morning, and also take 200mg R-ala about an hour later.

    Im worried/curious now.
    never heard anything of this.
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by John Smeton View Post
    never heard anything of this.
    I think I have, but never paid attention to it.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by John Smeton View Post
    never heard anything of this.
    Effect of alpha-lipoic acid on the peripheral conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine and on serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels.
    Segermann J, Hotze A, Ulrich H, Rao GS.
    Source

    Institute of Clinical Biochemistry, University of Bonn, Fed. Rep. of Germany.
    Abstract

    The influence of alpha-lipoic acid (LA, thioctic acid, CAS 62-46-4) on thyroid hormone metabolism and serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels was investigated. In the first setup of experiments administration of LA together with thyroxine (T4) for 9 days suppressed the T4 induced increase of T3 generation by 56%. This suppression was similar to that affected by 6-propylthiouracil (54%). LA or T4 alone did not affect the cholesterol level, but together they led to a reduction. LA decreased the triglyceride level by 45%; the decrease induced by T4 or LA plus T4 was not significant. Total protein and albumin levels decreased by LA plus T4 treatment when compared to the LA control. The slight increase in glucose level by LA or T4 alone was not observed when they were administered together. In the second setup of experiments the administration of T4 for 22 days increased the serum T3 level 3-fold. When LA was combined with T4 and the treatment continued, the T3 production decreased by 22%. T4 reduced cholesterol level by 30%, and LA plus T4 further reduced it by 47%. The triglycerides were not affected. A moderate decrease in total protein was observed after treatment with T4 plus LA; T4 and LA plus T4 decreased the albumin level. The decrease in serum glucose by T4 recovers by LA treatment. These results demonstrate that LA interferes with the production of T3 from T4 when it is co-administered with T4. The elevated level of T3, after T4 administration, is reduced by treatment with LA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

  16. Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    Effect of alpha-lipoic acid on the peripheral conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine and on serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels.
    Segermann J, Hotze A, Ulrich H, Rao GS.
    Source

    Institute of Clinical Biochemistry, University of Bonn, Fed. Rep. of Germany.
    Abstract

    The influence of alpha-lipoic acid (LA, thioctic acid, CAS 62-46-4) on thyroid hormone metabolism and serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels was investigated. In the first setup of experiments administration of LA together with thyroxine (T4) for 9 days suppressed the T4 induced increase of T3 generation by 56%. This suppression was similar to that affected by 6-propylthiouracil (54%). LA or T4 alone did not affect the cholesterol level, but together they led to a reduction. LA decreased the triglyceride level by 45%; the decrease induced by T4 or LA plus T4 was not significant. Total protein and albumin levels decreased by LA plus T4 treatment when compared to the LA control. The slight increase in glucose level by LA or T4 alone was not observed when they were administered together. In the second setup of experiments the administration of T4 for 22 days increased the serum T3 level 3-fold. When LA was combined with T4 and the treatment continued, the T3 production decreased by 22%. T4 reduced cholesterol level by 30%, and LA plus T4 further reduced it by 47%. The triglycerides were not affected. A moderate decrease in total protein was observed after treatment with T4 plus LA; T4 and LA plus T4 decreased the albumin level. The decrease in serum glucose by T4 recovers by LA treatment. These results demonstrate that LA interferes with the production of T3 from T4 when it is co-administered with T4. The elevated level of T3, after T4 administration, is reduced by treatment with LA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

    Interesting.. thanks!

  17. Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    Effect of alpha-lipoic acid on the peripheral conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine and on serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels.
    Segermann J, Hotze A, Ulrich H, Rao GS.
    Source

    Institute of Clinical Biochemistry, University of Bonn, Fed. Rep. of Germany.
    Abstract

    The influence of alpha-lipoic acid (LA, thioctic acid, CAS 62-46-4) on thyroid hormone metabolism and serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels was investigated. In the first setup of experiments administration of LA together with thyroxine (T4) for 9 days suppressed the T4 induced increase of T3 generation by 56%. This suppression was similar to that affected by 6-propylthiouracil (54%). LA or T4 alone did not affect the cholesterol level, but together they led to a reduction. LA decreased the triglyceride level by 45%; the decrease induced by T4 or LA plus T4 was not significant. Total protein and albumin levels decreased by LA plus T4 treatment when compared to the LA control. The slight increase in glucose level by LA or T4 alone was not observed when they were administered together. In the second setup of experiments the administration of T4 for 22 days increased the serum T3 level 3-fold. When LA was combined with T4 and the treatment continued, the T3 production decreased by 22%. T4 reduced cholesterol level by 30%, and LA plus T4 further reduced it by 47%. The triglycerides were not affected. A moderate decrease in total protein was observed after treatment with T4 plus LA; T4 and LA plus T4 decreased the albumin level. The decrease in serum glucose by T4 recovers by LA treatment. These results demonstrate that LA interferes with the production of T3 from T4 when it is co-administered with T4. The elevated level of T3, after T4 administration, is reduced by treatment with LA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
    so in other words do not take lipioc acid with t3, t4 or any thyroid medications?
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by John Smeton View Post
    so in other words do not take lipioc acid with t3, t4 or any thyroid medications?
    dont take with T4 bc theres conversion inhibition.

    i dont know about t3, but im sure it would have been specific.

    i wouldnt take too much carnitine with t3, as they deplete eachother, when ones high the other drops (probably due to energy usage). But even carnitine has been used to reverse hyperthyroidism to a degree.

    but im less worried about that as the functions for fat burning seem to correlate well with use.

    t3 depletes carnitine. probably because carnitine is used to activate fats to burn for beta oxidation which happens at a quick rate for fuel usage. theres an amount i would say you should stop at but off hand i wouldnt know. i think 2g is the limit IMO, dont need more then that.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    dont take with T4 bc theres conversion inhibition.

    i dont know about t3, but im sure it would have been specific.

    i wouldnt take too much carnitine with t3, as they deplete eachother, when ones high the other drops (probably due to energy usage). But even carnitine has been used to reverse hyperthyroidism to a degree.

    but im less worried about that as the functions for fat burning seem to correlate well with use.

    t3 depletes carnitine. probably because carnitine is used to activate fats to burn for beta oxidation which happens at a quick rate for fuel usage. theres an amount i would say you should stop at but off hand i wouldnt know. i think 2g is the limit IMO, dont need more then that.
    understood. First time I hear t3 depletes carnitine. Thank you for sharing that reps
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post


    ...t3 depletes carnitine. probably because carnitine is used to activate fats to burn for beta oxidation which happens at a quick rate for fuel usage. theres an amount i would say you should stop at but off hand i wouldnt know. i think 2g is the limit IMO, dont need more then that.
    Wouldn't this be an indication FOR use together? I would call this a synergistic relationship yeah? Of course it may require a higher dose of either, but I think the 'depletion' is actually just a higher rate of use. I mean, a greater rate of beta oxidation effectively means a greater rate of fat burning, which to me sounds awesome. Am I making sense, or have I totally gone off the deep end...

  22. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    Wouldn't this be an indication FOR use together? I would call this a synergistic relationship yeah? Of course it may require a higher dose of either, but I think the 'depletion' is actually just a higher rate of use. I mean, a greater rate of beta oxidation effectively means a greater rate of fat burning, which to me sounds awesome. Am I making sense, or have I totally gone off the deep end...
    your making sense and to answer your question yes it would be wwise to use carntine and t3 together; however not so sure about na-r-ala
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  23. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    Wouldn't this be an indication FOR use together? I would call this a synergistic relationship yeah? Of course it may require a higher dose of either, but I think the 'depletion' is actually just a higher rate of use. I mean, a greater rate of beta oxidation effectively means a greater rate of fat burning, which to me sounds awesome. Am I making sense, or have I totally gone off the deep end...
    it makes sense which is why im not personally against it at normal doses, higher doses though may effect t3 levelsa negativly.

    what you want is just enough to be used for fat oxidation and no more where it would increase the chance to lower t3 levels.

    that why i use no more then 500-2000mg per day.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    Wouldn't this be an indication FOR use together? I would call this a synergistic relationship yeah? Of course it may require a higher dose of either, but I think the 'depletion' is actually just a higher rate of use. I mean, a greater rate of beta oxidation effectively means a greater rate of fat burning, which to me sounds awesome. Am I making sense, or have I totally gone off the deep end...
    Reading it, thats what I thought.. a synergistic effect.


    Mike

  25. Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    Reading it, thats what I thought.. a synergistic effect.


    Mike
    yes and no.

    its shown to be used for HYPERthyroidism. natural way to slow thyroid. instead of radioactive iodine.

  26. @ssbackwards,

    Thanks for posting those studies, after reading those and a couple others, my general understanding is that carnitines use in hyperthyroidism is through two different mechanisms. Oral carnitine administration will reduce the symptoms (not necessarily the actual disease) of hyperthyroidism by replenishing the bodies carnitine stores once they have been depleted by excess circulating T3/T4. Beyond that it seems carnitine has a slight regulatory effect on T3/T4 entrance into the cell nucleus and/or cytoplasm (peripheral antagonism?) of certain tissues, the mechanism of which I could not find so anything I say in that regard will be useless lol.

    What I take from that is that it is safe to use carnitine under a euthyroid condition as long as it is not in great excess, otherwise we would have all sorts of people going hypothyroid with the mass use of carnitine, and that in order to prevent hyperthyroid symptoms while taking T3 on a scale that will amplify fatloss, it is a good idea to supplement with carnitine.

    Sorry if that was already apparent to everyone, I just gotta say it myself sometimes before it really sinks in.

  27. So i guess i should lay off the LCLT while on t3 huh?? (only taking 1500mgED)

  28. Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    So i guess i should lay off the LCLT while on t3 huh?? (only taking 1500mgED)
    Curious too. As I am getting ready to begin t3 along with currently used t4 to treat hypothyroidism. Would 2g LCLT be wise or not?

  29. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    @ssbackwards,

    Thanks for posting those studies, after reading those and a couple others, my general understanding is that carnitines use in hyperthyroidism is through two different mechanisms. Oral carnitine administration will reduce the symptoms (not necessarily the actual disease) of hyperthyroidism by replenishing the bodies carnitine stores once they have been depleted by excess circulating T3/T4. Beyond that it seems carnitine has a slight regulatory effect on T3/T4 entrance into the cell nucleus and/or cytoplasm (peripheral antagonism?) of certain tissues, the mechanism of which I could not find so anything I say in that regard will be useless lol.

    What I take from that is that it is safe to use carnitine under a euthyroid condition as long as it is not in great excess, otherwise we would have all sorts of people going hypothyroid with the mass use of carnitine, and that in order to prevent hyperthyroid symptoms while taking T3 on a scale that will amplify fatloss, it is a good idea to supplement with carnitine.

    Sorry if that was already apparent to everyone, I just gotta say it myself sometimes before it really sinks in.
    basically it comes down to law of diminishing returns i feel like. too little you feel like **** too much counterproductive

  30. Quote Originally Posted by gymrat827 View Post
    So i guess i should lay off the LCLT while on t3 huh?? (only taking 1500mgED)
    Quote Originally Posted by jgraves31 View Post
    Curious too. As I am getting ready to begin t3 along with currently used t4 to treat hypothyroidism. Would 2g LCLT be wise or not?
    lay off no. use no more then 2g in my opinion yes.

    if on t4, no ALA. if using t4 and T3 you can use ALA just becareful when you come off as the synthriod effects will be reduced from ALA

    Also i recommend a calcium supplement to keep thryroid in check.

    http://www.fasebj.org/content/15/2/291.full

    agouti is shown to raise rT3 and show low or low normal levels of t3 and t4 while TSH is somewhat "normal"
    http://endo.endojournals.org/content/143/10/3846.short
    posted this in the Lean Gains/ IF discussion log a couple minutes ago. for more studies on agouti and thyroid.

  31. Quote Originally Posted by tunnelrat View Post
    How much more potent an antioxidant is Na-Rala? Night and day?
    id use both
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  32. Quote Originally Posted by Blergs View Post
    id use both
    What I do
  

  
 

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