Eca stack at empty stomach?

[fenix91]

hi guys, I've purchased a box of diamond labs eca stack, i was wondering if i can take it at empty stomach before morning cardio session. The labels say to take it with breakfast, but i can not eat before cardio since i want to do fasted cardio, now i ask you: Is There Any risk in taking eca at empty stomach?
Also I have an other question: my cardio workout consists of running 10 miles in a steady state mode, but since the path has many ascents and descents, there are continuous changes of rhythm and then heartbeat. this workout is dangerous to associate with eca?

 

[criticalbench]

I always took EC on an empty stomach; there may be something in the blended product though that will irritate your stomach if no food is in it.

Mike

 

[mr.cooper69]

Always take EC on an empty stomach for the acidic environment.

 

[fenix91]

maybe for the aspirin that is harmful for the stomach. Any advice for the other questions?

 

[nattydisaster]

Always take EC on an empty stomach for the acidic environment.

Silly boy, empty stomach for the basic environment!

Stomach is most basic when empty, and amines are best absorbed in a more basic environment

Generally speaking of course

Empty stomach pH 4-5

Eat food --> Gastrinhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrin --> pepsinogenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsinogen/pepsin --> HCl --> Lower pH to 1-3 and negative feedback inhibits gastrin when pH gets around 3.

 

[Bnatural]

empty stomach would be somewhat ideal, but after waking up fasted, you are not in the best position to be taking eca even if fat loss is your focus, muscle loss is sure to follow.

 

[kanakafarian]

Same here, always on empty. 30 min prior to workouts and meals.

 

[itzDodge]

empty stomach would be somewhat ideal, but after waking up fasted, you are not in the best position to be taking eca even if fat loss is your focus, muscle loss is sure to follow.

It is most certainly not

 

[mr.cooper69]

Silly boy, empty stomach for the basic environment!

Stomach is most basic when empty, and amines are best absorbed in a more basic environment

Generally speaking of course

Empty stomach pH 4-5

Eat food --> Gastrin --> pepsinogen/pepsin --> HCl --> Lower pH to 1-3 and negative feedback inhibits gastrin when pH gets around 3.

Sigh, came back to this thread like 5 days after the fact and realized my error. Of course the HCl isn't released until GI stimulation .

 

[jbryand101b]

It is most certainly not

huh, really, i'd like you to show me some data stating there is anything anti catabolic about doing fasted cardio, and/or fasted cardio plus e/c/a.

 

[lightemup]

I tried ECA a while back on an empty stomach but ended up getting terribly sick and puking my guts out. I would suggest a light meal prior to taking...

 

[mr.cooper69]

I tried ECA a while back on an empty stomach but ended up getting terribly sick and puking my guts out. I would suggest a light meal prior to taking...

I generally wouldn't. Your response is pretty unusual. Nauseous? Maybe, but I've never heard of puking

 

[criticalbench]

Silly boy, empty stomach for the basic environment!

Stomach is most basic when empty, and amines are best absorbed in a more basic environment

Generally speaking of course

Empty stomach pH 4-5

Eat food --> Gastrin --> pepsinogen/pepsin --> HCl --> Lower pH to 1-3 and negative feedback inhibits gastrin when pH gets around 3.

Solid post, good to know the numbers!

Mike

 

[heavylifter33]

empty stomach would be somewhat ideal, but after waking up fasted, you are not in the best position to be taking eca even if fat loss is your focus, muscle loss is sure to follow.

I simply cannot agree with this statement.

Why would a dose of EC incite muscle loss? Waking up fasted does not meal you're waking up catabolic. That increase in metabolic rate isn't going to make your body start cannibalizing muscle mass.

 

[itzDodge]

I simply cannot agree with this statement.

Why would a dose of EC incite muscle loss? Waking up fasted does not meal you're waking up catabolic. That increase in metabolic rate isn't going to make your body start cannibalizing muscle mass.

Bro I can feel the EC chewin on my biceps, MY GAINZ!!!!!!11!1!oneone

 

[mr.cooper69]

I simply cannot agree with this statement.

Why would a dose of EC incite muscle loss? Waking up fasted does not meal you're waking up catabolic. That increase in metabolic rate isn't going to make your body start cannibalizing muscle mass.

Bro I can feel the EC chewin on my biceps, MY GAINZ!!!!!!11!1!oneone

You mess with an SNS rep, you mess with me

 

[itzDodge]

You mess with an SNS rep, you mess with me

Bring it, Rhadam is on my side, together we're invincible

 

[jbryand101b]

Your body will be in a catabolic state if an when you do exercise after not eating all night, and plus using ephedrine.
You might be able to lessen the catabolic hormones released by decreasing your intensity to like a walk level, but any thing like resistance training, running, will be catabolic

 

[Colbert]

Silly boy, empty stomach for the basic environment!

Stomach is most basic when empty, and amines are best absorbed in a more basic environment

Generally speaking of course

Empty stomach pH 4-5

Eat food --> Gastrinhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrin --> pepsinogenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsinogen/pepsin --> HCl --> Lower pH to 1-3 and negative feedback inhibits gastrin when pH gets around 3.

That's true. The acid is produce in the stomach so it can denature the proteins. HCl is usually at ph of 2...in stomach that is

 

[JudoJosh]

Catabolic does not necessarily equal muscle loss as it can also be in reference to the breakdown of fat in adipose tissue to fatty acids. Catabolism is simply the term used to reference the metabolic pathways that break down various molecules (polysaccharides, lipids, proteins, etc) into smaller forms which results in energy being released. These are then used to to either construct new large molecules or further degrade them into waste product (lactic acid, acetic acid, urea, etc) in which also energy is released. Also to add, catabolism is needed to fuel the synthesis of ATP which acts in a way for your cells to transfer this energy to reactions that require energy (ex: anabolism).

The term "Catabolism" for some reason gets demonized in this industry when in reality the metabolic pathways known as catabolism, provide the energy necessary for maintenance and growth. This idea that catabolism only refers to the break down of muscle is the result of supplement companies marketing departments, just the same way cortisol is looked upon as a evil word.

 

[JudoJosh]

Your body will be in a catabolic state if an when you do exercise after not eating all night, and plus using ephedrine.
You might be able to lessen the catabolic hormones released by decreasing your intensity to like a walk level, but any thing like resistance training, running, will be catabolic

Some hormones which have been traditionally known as catabolic hormones are now being thought to also express an anti-catabolic effect specifically in muscle tissue, epinephrine (adrenaline) being one of them. Now while I know epinephrine and ephedrine aren't the same thing but aren't there a significant amount of similarities between the two in function and structure?

Do you think any of the below can be taken and applied to ephedrine as well?

Effects of epinephrine on human muscle glucose and protein metabolism

Abstract

Systemic epinephrine infusion causes hypoaminoacidemia and inhibits whole body leucine flux (proteolysis) in humans. Its specific action on muscle protein is not known and is difficult to assess during systemic epinephrine infusions, which affect plasma insulin, amino acid, and free fatty acid concentrations. During a steady-state infusion of L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine, we examined the effect of locally infused epinephrine on the metabolism of protein and glucose in forearm muscle of 10 healthy human volunteers. During local epinephrine infusion, systemic concentrations of glucose, phenylalanine, insulin, and epinephrine were unchanged and lactate declined (P < 0.02). Compared with baseline, epinephrine induced significant increases in forearm blood flow (P < 0.01) and net lactate release (P < 0.001) and a decrease in glucose uptake (P < 0.01) at both 2 and 4 h. At 2 and 4 h phenylalanine release from muscle proteolysis was suppressed (P < 0.01), and at 4 h the net phenylalanine balance was less negative than baseline (P < 0.02), indicating an anticatabolic effect on muscle protein. We conclude that in human forearm muscle epinephrine, at physiological concentrations, has a catabolic effect on muscle glycogen but an anticatabolic action on muscle protein. The mechanism of this latter effect is not known.

Here we see it had an anti-proteolytic effect, and in fact suppressed catabolism rather than promoted it.

Catecholamines inhibit Ca(2+)-dependent proteolysis in rat skeletal muscle through beta(2)-adrenoceptors and cAMP.

Abstract

Overall proteolysis and the activity of skeletal muscle proteolytic systems were investigated in rats 1, 2, or 4 days after adrenodemedullation. Adrenodemedullation reduced plasma epinephrine by 95% and norepinephrine by 35% but did not affect muscle norepinephrine content. In soleus and extensor digitorum longus (EDL) muscles, rates of overall proteolysis increased by 15-20% by 2 days after surgery but returned to normal levels after 4 days. The rise in rates of protein degradation was accompanied by an increased activity of Ca(2+)-dependent proteolysis in both muscles, with no significant change in the activity of lysosomal and ATP-dependent proteolytic systems. In vitro rates of Ca(2+)-dependent proteolysis in soleus and EDL from normal rats decreased by ~35% in the presence of either 10(-5) M clenbuterol, a beta(2)-adrenergic agonist, or epinephrine or norepinephrine. In the presence of dibutyryl cAMP, proteolysis was reduced by 62% in soleus and 34% in EDL. The data suggest that catecholamines secreted by the adrenal medulla exert an inhibitory control of Ca(2+)-dependent proteolysis in rat skeletal muscle, mediated by beta(2)-adrenoceptors, with the participation of a cAMP-dependent pathway.

Here we see that catecholamines in general (i.e. noradrenaline/norepinephrine and adrenaline/epinephrine) greatly decreased the rate of muscle catabolism.

Again I do realize the epinephrine and ephedrine arent exactally the same there are a significent amount of similarties between the two (function and structure) so I wasnt sure if anything from the above could really be extrapolated and applied here or not but thought I would add this

 

[itzDodge]

Some hormones which have been traditionally known as catabolic hormones are now being thought to also express an anti-catabolic effect specifically in muscle tissue, epinephrine (adrenaline) being one of them. Now while I know epinephrine and ephedrine aren't the same thing but aren't there a significant amount of similarities between the two in function and structure?

Do you think any of the below can be taken and spoiled to ephedrine as well?



Here we see it had an anti-proteolytic effect, and in fact suppressed catabolism rather than promoted it.



Here we see that catecholamines in general (i.e. noradrenaline/norepinephrine and adrenaline/epinephrine) greatly decreased the rate of muscle catabolism.

Again I do realize the epinephrine and ephedrine arent exactally the same there are a significent amount of similarties between the two (function and structure) so I wasnt sure if anything from the above could really be extrapolated and applied here or not but thought I would add this

The second one you linked pertains more to EC. EC primarily stimulates catecholamine release and ephedrine is a beta agonist much like a popular cutting compound used among chemical body builders(clen). EC isn't going to increase muscle loss, if anything it will protect it. Also training fasted isn't necessarily going to burn off all your muscles either that would be a pretty ****ty design flaw within humanity. I would however agree it would be wise to supplement with BCAAs(10g) prior to training or 3g Leucine plus 20G carbs prior to training. Also consuming carbs while you lift might not be a bad idea either. A simple gatorade powder would have you covered for a while.

Keep in mind that athletic individuals will burn just as much fat during exercise with or without carbs prior to training. However overweight/obese or untrained individuals would get some use out of fasted training. If you're an athletic individual feel free to get some of your daily macros of carbs in before a lift/cardio session, it won't slow down fat loss.

 

[Sourdough]

WOW...

First off...



Did ANYONE bother to check twice what the OP stated they were taking??? its NOT Ephedrine/Caffeine/Aspirin.

Its ECA stack from Diamond labs... a crap fatloss product containing ONLY caffeine from the purported stack. Its otherwise banned as a supplement fellas, we all should know this.


SECOND

Who in the hell is saying that ephedrine is catabolic or will increase it??? The great thing about Ephedrine and Clen and Albuterol and many OTHER beta agonists is the fact that they do an insanely great job at burning ONLY fat and not muscle, Clen has been suggested as being outright anabolic in fact and if one properly doses lower dosed Ephedrine more times a day acheiving a similar plasma level as the longer halflifed clen then you will get VERY similar effects.


THIRD

Any product manufacturer back in the day that actually sold Ephedrine in a supplement woulda known NOT to take it with food, thats another indication this crap is just that, CRAP.

you take beta receptor agonists with food, it releases insulin, and the ephedrine then attaches to the beta receptor sites on the pancreas instead causing even LARGER releases of insulin and doesnt do jack for burning fat.....


There ya have it, problem solved, close thread. This stuff is just garbage.

 

[Sourdough]

BTW...

You guys want a stack that will blow ECA outta the water?

OEP and Alpha T2 both dosed 2 pills 2x a day.... (you will need to work up to this dose)


I was taking my own ECA stack with good results and the second I switched over to this the fat just poured off, it was like night and day.

It does an insane job of properly and precisely activating the correct receptors to not only initiate fatloss but also keep new fat from being deposited and circulating released fat from getting RE-deposited (happens with most burners). On top of this it boosts your thryroid production in a non suppressive natural manner, just as strong feeling as dosing exogenous thryroid hormones and with the T2 from PES you are also promoting brown fat production which is VERY thermogenic.....

Really the science is there, the stack has EXTREME synergy and the results speak for themselves....

Noooow.... id also almost suggest only taking THIS stack on cycle only... the effects were so profound and thryroid was boosted so well that Im almost certain that had i not been on cycle there would have been muscle wasting, seeing as i WAS on cycle though, the increased thyroid activity just helped in promoting protein synthesis.

I have pics of what this stack/cycle did for me if anyone is interested.

 

[itzDodge]

...

The argument wasn't over the product it was over actual EC but I agree it strayed pretty quickly. There appears to be some bro science within your 1st post and as for your 2nd, stacking oep and alpha t2 while on cycle is not wise. BP raise could easily cause some health issues, EC will raise BP too but you don't have to be on cycle to run it and get results you want. Stacking Alpha yohimbine with EC > Alpha T2 and OEP

 

[nattydisaster]

The argument wasn't over the product it was over actual EC but I agree it strayed pretty quickly. There appears to be some bro science within your 1st post and as for your 2nd, stacking oep and alpha t2 while on cycle is not wise. BP raise could easily cause some health issues, EC will raise BP too but you don't have to be on cycle to run it and get results you want. Stacking Alpha yohimbine with EC > Alpha T2 and OEP

You dont have to be on cycle with any fat burner to get the results you want. The ingredients in Alpha-T2 actually have shown to slightly decrease BP, so if I were to use a fat burner on cycle it would be that.

 

[Sourdough]

The argument wasn't over the product it was over actual EC but I agree it strayed pretty quickly. There appears to be some bro science within your 1st post

agree to disagree...

I wasnt even referring to you in the least as you were only saying things I agreed with in reference to it NOT being catabolic.

id like to know what bit of my post is bro science? just cause i didnt take the time to cite studies and didnt type with all capitals or punctuation doesnt deter from the TRUTH based on FACTS that I stated. again please point out the flawed logic or bro science as im here to learn but think you are mistaken.

and as for your 2nd, stacking oep and alpha t2 while on cycle is not wise. BP raise could easily cause some health issues, EC will raise BP too but you don't have to be on cycle to run it and get results you want. Stacking Alpha yohimbine with EC > Alpha T2 and OEP

Yes... As for my second... You wouldnt dose T3 without an anabolic now would you? I wouldnt even do T4, This stack is stronger then the latter IMO and comparable to the former.

The BP issue is personal and varies, anyone cycling OR running extreme fat burning stacks should be constantly monitoring this as it is. I also was on a MILD cutting cycle as all cutting cycles should be. just enough to promote slight anabolism to stave off catabolism while on a caloric deficit. not nearly enough of or from the compounds that will spike my BP into dangerous realms.

 

[itzDodge]

You dont have to be on cycle with any fat burner to get the results you want. The ingredients in Alpha-T2 actually have shown to slightly decrease BP, so if I were to use a fat burner on cycle it would be that.

Which ones?

 

[MM11]

huh, really, i'd like you to show me some data stating there is anything anti catabolic about doing fasted cardio, and/or fasted cardio plus e/c/a.

Just to share my opinion muscle loss will be much more dependent on how much of a calorie deficit the person is in. Not what time they do cardio and take ECA. I always take mine on an empty stomach. 45-60 mins away from food on either end.

 

[ax1]

I tried ECA a while back on an empty stomach but ended up getting terribly sick and puking my guts out. I would suggest a light meal prior to taking...

Thats due to the caffeine. Its making you hypoglycemic and feeling sick. Ive had that issue in the past especially first thing in the morning, so I take my ephedrine with coffee w/ half and half without issues.

 

[ax1]

Keep in mind that athletic individuals will burn just as much fat during exercise with or without carbs prior to training. However overweight/obese or untrained individuals would get some use out of fasted training. If you're an athletic individual feel free to get some of your daily macros of carbs in before a lift/cardio session, it won't slow down fat loss.

Until you get to stubborn fat...then you can utilize a keto diet, and 15-20mg of yohimbine (and caffeine) with a proper fasted training protocol to get rid of that. Not saying this is the only way but it can get many through a sticking point.

 

[oufinny]

Until you get to stubborn fat...then you can utilize a keto diet, and 15-20mg of yohimbine (and caffeine) with a proper fasted training protocol to get rid of that. Not saying this is the only way but it can get many through a sticking point.

That is a way to do it and damn man that is a lot of yohimbine at once. 10 I can do, 15 I would be irritable and my heart would jump out of my chest. I think something like Alpha-T2 or Alpha Burn with EC stack is a great option if you are at a sticking point as well if you are not as stim tolerant as AX1.

 

[itzDodge]

you take beta receptor agonists with food, it releases insulin, and the ephedrine then attaches to the beta receptor sites on the pancreas instead causing even LARGER releases of insulin

Please show me any science on this statement at all. Ephedrine is a poor beta agonist itself, it stimulates catecholamine release(noradrenaline) and that is where the beta agonist activity comes into play. To say it will increase insulin response when you ingest food with it is unrealistic. Insulin isn't the devil either. I agree it is wise to keep it in control and to regulate its activity with diet but ephedrine in no way should increase insulin response because you took it with food.

I also agree with you that people should always monitor BP but honestly how many people do you think do that? I always keep in mind that very uneducated consumers might be reading my posts and to make sure they understand they can't just take something and be ok the whole time. Not trying to start an argument though, try and think of this more as an intellectual discussion and not a dick measuring contest

 

[itzDodge]

Until you get to stubborn fat...then you can utilize a keto diet, and 15-20mg of yohimbine (and caffeine) with a proper fasted training protocol to get rid of that. Not saying this is the only way but it can get many through a sticking point.

You never have to utilize a keto diet but using CKD or TKD would be incredibly effective for that stubborn fat. I'd be more opt to suggest alpha yohimbine, less sides easier to dose to as well as less expensive. Once you start getting into effective doses of yohimbine hcl its not that expensive but they're better options, like ay which I already suggested

 

[itzDodge]

I should add, you should be dosing your EC away from food anyways as ephedrine is a weak base

 

[Sourdough]

That is a way to do it and damn man that is a lot of yohimbine at once. 10 I can do, 15 I would be irritable and my heart would jump out of my chest. I think something like Alpha-T2 or Alpha Burn with EC stack is a great option if you are at a sticking point as well if you are not as stim tolerant as AX1.

this confuses me...

you guys know that alpha t2 and OEP both have alpha yohimbine in it? rauwolscine is AY.

Also you know that Alpha T2 has a beta receptor agonist in it as well??? It was recently methyl synephrine but has recently been replaced with something that has a shorter half life and will defeat building tolerance too quickly (like clen methyl synephrine constantly bombards beta receptors which can cause down regulation) that completely deneccesitates adding ephedrine to the stack,,, also trumps EC + AY imo cause the OEP has caffeine and Geranamine in it as well adding more factors to the stack then just had in ECY...

Like I said the science is there. its a better stack... ive done TONS of reading up on this for this past summers cut and it paid off in dividends with this stack,

 

[ax1]

That is a way to do it and damn man that is a lot of yohimbine at once. 10 I can do, 15 I would be irritable and my heart would jump out of my chest. I think something like Alpha-T2 or Alpha Burn with EC stack is a great option if you are at a sticking point as well if you are not as stim tolerant as AX1.

0.2 mg/kg is the scientific ratio done w/ studies that show weight loss with yohimbine.

Then there is a study done on soccer players where they consumed 10mg twice a day with impressive results compared to placebo.

I agree on the EC....You can run a Lyle McDonalds stubborn bodyfat protocol and dose the EC 4 hours apart from the yohimbine doses.

You never have to utilize a keto diet but using CKD or TKD would be incredibly effective for that stubborn fat. I'd be more opt to suggest alpha yohimbine, less sides easier to dose to as well as less expensive. Once you start getting into effective doses of yohimbine hcl its not that expensive but they're better options, like ay which I already suggested

Certainly...I speak from reading Lyle McDonalds Stubborn Body-fat Solution book, so there is more to it that I stated especially in regards to diet quality/quantity. Its certainly not for everyone either.

In my experience regular yohimbine is superior to alpha-yohimbine, although I do appreciate alpha's existence and use it. To tell you the truth I like to keep those 2 separate and they are overly often compared/linked to one another. They are 2 different things to me imo its like comparing TTA and green tea (dumb example, but how I feel.) I and many others dont get sides from yohimbine even at the suggested doses of .2/kg but this can vary person to person of course. Starting low to assess tolerance is a must.

 

[Sourdough]

Please show me any science on this statement at all. Ephedrine is a poor beta agonist itself, it stimulates catecholamine release(noradrenaline) and that is where the beta agonist activity comes into play. To say it will increase insulin response when you ingest food with it is unrealistic. Insulin isn't the devil either. I agree it is wise to keep it in control and to regulate its activity with diet but ephedrine in no way should increase insulin response because you took it with food.

I also agree with you that people should always monitor BP but honestly how many people do you think do that? I always keep in mind that very uneducated consumers might be reading my posts and to make sure they understand they can't just take something and be ok the whole time. Not trying to start an argument though, try and think of this more as an intellectual discussion and not a dick measuring contest

wow buddy... your the one spouting labels and just calling my post bro science cause you dont have the same info i do.... I will fetch your info in my next post....

as for the fact that you are a rep.... well I am not, I dont have "customers" (in actuality neither do you but the point remains you rep a comp) so Im not going to label my post "take x amount of X product for X days while monitoring bp, drinking X amount of fluids and seeing the Dr if any problems arise"

Sorry pal from what I read on here most are more educated then you give them credit for, OP excluded this thread is a great example... I think that MOST would know to monitor bp on cycle and I KNOW most run cutting cycles taking anabolics and fat burners simultaneously.... if not preworkout drinks that are chalked full of stimulants.

now Im NOT trying to get into a "bigger then yours" contest.... you just made labels and claims that you obviously dont realize are FACTS regarding Alpha and beta agonists.... cant take em with food pal, it completely makes them useless and causes them to effect the pancreas instead... again i will fetch you my sources in the next post, but maybe do some more reading, theres a reason the product manufacturer says to take it on an empty stomach.

oh BTW... ephedrine does a just fine job hitting the beta receptor as well as many others in its actions.

 

[Sourdough]

first read this.... funny how beta receptor down regulation causes diabetes and is the receptor in the pancreas responsible for releasing insulin.... hmmm.... insulin release beta receptor agonist correlation much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-2_adrenergic_receptor

 

[itzDodge]

this confuses me...

you guys know that alpha t2 and OEP both have alpha yohimbine in it? rauwolscine is AY.

Also you know that Alpha T2 has a beta receptor agonist in it as well??? It was recently methyl synephrine but has recently been replaced with something that has a shorter half life and will defeat building tolerance too quickly (like clen methyl synephrine constantly bombards beta receptors which can cause down regulation) that completely deneccesitates adding ephedrine to the stack,,, also trumps EC + AY imo cause the OEP has caffeine and Geranamine in it as well adding more factors to the stack then just had in ECY...

Like I said the science is there. its a better stack... ive done TONS of reading up on this for this past summers cut and it paid off in dividends with this stack,

I'm not telling you it won't work I'm saying the cost effectiveness it's not the best decision imo.

EC + AB = 80 $ Two Months OEP + Alpha T2 = 3 caps/day 134$
Difference of 54 $ for two months. Without being on a cycle of some sort the thyroidal is likely to burn up some muscle as well, it has higenamine and research is promising but limiting why not stick to something we know is muscle sparing, EC. Both sets have AY so no argument there, both also have heft doses of caffeine for controlling appetite. Ephedrine most likely won't build a tolerance as fast as MHA will in OEP. The two other ingredients in OEP are there for flare, bacopa might give you some focus, and the other one has seemingly no human studies except for maybe helping cancer patients. Atleast from what I've determined. So with all that out there you're left with a well studied, cost effective stack or a much more expensive stack with some similar ingredients and some that you doesn't sure about.

I'm not trying to bash PES or UPS at all, I'm just looking out for the less wealthy consumers, plus with EC and AB you can go out can get your GDA of choice for 2 months. Controlling blood sugar levels is incredibly important for cutting down as well and is very often over looked because its not something you'll feel working(unless you're a diabetic or just have experience differing between higher and lower BS..)

 

[itzDodge]

0.2 mg/kg is the scientific ratio done w/ studies that show weight loss with yohimbine.

Then there is a study done on soccer players where they consumed 10mg twice a day with impressive results compared to placebo.

I agree on the EC....You can run a Lyle McDonalds stubborn bodyfat protocol and dose the EC 4 hours apart from the yohimbine doses.

Certainly...I speak from reading Lyle McDonalds Stubborn Body-fat Solution book, so there is more to it that I stated especially in regards to diet quality/quantity. Its certainly not for everyone either.

In my experience regular yohimbine is superior to alpha-yohimbine, although I do appreciate alpha's existence and use it. To tell you the truth I like to keep those 2 separate and they are overly often compared/linked to one another. They are 2 different things to me imo its like comparing TTA and green tea (dumb example, but how I feel.) I and many others dont get sides from yohimbine even at the suggested doses of .2/kg but this can vary person to person of course. Starting low to assess tolerance is a must.

I need to read more of his stuff, followed lots of logs on his UD 2.0 with great results but have not read much by him personally. I can understand the yohimbine aspect. Where its made me anxious, ay induces a more uplifting mood at times. Everyone is different, the body is not a book

 

[itzDodge]

first read this.... funny how beta receptor down regulation causes diabetes and is the receptor in the pancreas responsible for releasing insulin.... hmmm.... insulin release beta receptor agonist correlation much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-2_adrenergic_receptor

Noradrenaline, not specific, ephedrine is a very poor ligand for beta 2 activity. I don't understand how the specfic beta 2 agonist is uber awesome in alpha t2 but when I speak of ephedrine its like woah bro watch those beta 2 receptors.

 

[ax1]

Id prefer not to mix 1,3 with ephedrine. Just seems overboard to me, plus there is not enough data on the combination.

 

[ax1]

I need to read more of his stuff, followed lots of logs on his UD 2.0 with great results but have not read much by him personally. I can understand the yohimbine aspect. Where its made me anxious, ay induces a more uplifting mood at times. Everyone is different, the body is not a book

Did you run yohimbine hcl? Did you use it on a empty stomach? Second question is rather a curiosity. Lyle strongly suggest's yohimbine be run on a fasted state or it will dramatically reduce effectiveness (on top of most people under-dosing yohimbine).

 

[ax1]

Noradrenaline, not specific, ephedrine is a very poor ligand for beta 2 activity. I don't understand how the specfic beta 2 agonist is uber awesome in alpha t2 but when I speak of ephedrine its like woah bro watch those beta 2 receptors.

Yeah, ephedrine hits beta 2 a little...but unlike clen you can take ephedrine indefinitely and it works better with time 6+ months out. Clen almost stops working after 2 weeks with traditional dosing.

 

[itzDodge]

Id prefer not to mix 1,3 with ephedrine. Just seems overboard to me, plus there is not enough data on the combination.

Cardiac problems will surely arise

Did you run yohimbine hcl? Did you use it on a empty stomach? Second question is rather a curiosity. Lyle strongly suggest's yohimbine be run on a fasted state or it will dramatically reduce effectiveness (on top of most people under-dosing yohimbine).

It's been in products I've used so not fair to say I've used it but I didn't like said products at all. Optimal dosing would be in a fasted state, it appears to have great synergy with EC due to increasing circulating NE.

Yeah, ephedrine hits beta 2 a little...but unlike clen you can take ephedrine indefinitely and it works better with time 6+ months out. Clen almost stops working after 2 weeks with traditional dosing.

Clen is strong beta 2 agonist in muscle/fat and basically causes the receptors to recede into the cell membrane to reduce their availability to clen, thats why its recommended to taper on and off.

 

[nattydisaster]

Which ones?

Rauwolscine HCl and Higenamine

 

[Sourdough]

Noradrenaline, not specific, ephedrine is a very poor ligand for beta 2 activity. I don't understand how the specfic beta 2 agonist is uber awesome in alpha t2 but when I speak of ephedrine its like woah bro watch those beta 2 receptors.

Note your mixing 2 points to make the argument.

I initially mentioned that beta 2 agonists taken the same time as food would illicit responses in the pancreas as opposed to fat sites.

In another point I made I stated that alpha t2 and oep was a better stack then classic eca or even ecy imo.

Never once did I cross reference the 2 points stating alpha t2's beta agonist were immune to being redirected away from the intended target sites.....

Thanks though. For someone who's not trying to start an argument you sure try to find faults in others posts in quite the combative manner....

N btw cost was neither a point of concern in either your or my posts prior to this last mention you just made... So the redirect doesn't change the fact that my initial posts had no bro science included nor in the personal opinion that a set of supplements could be taken that would trump the eca stack with multiple stimulants, thyroid boosters and both beta and alpha agonists.

Thanks for your time and all but maybe you should be less prone to attacking others posts when they don't even contradict your point of view and in fact obviously brought up something you didn't know.

 

[Sourdough]

Yeah, ephedrine hits beta 2 a little...but unlike clen you can take ephedrine indefinitely and it works better with time 6+ months out. Clen almost stops working after 2 weeks with traditional dosing.

True, this is due to half life mostly.

What makes you more tired and quite all together faster, a marathon or 50 yard dashes spread hours apart?

This is why alpha t2's beta agonist was changed to one with a shorter half life..... Although methyl synephrine worked well for me too.

 

[nattydisaster]

Noradrenaline, not specific, ephedrine is a very poor ligand for beta 2 activity. I don't understand how the specfic beta 2 agonist is uber awesome in alpha t2 but when I speak of ephedrine its like woah bro watch those beta 2 receptors.

Noradrenaline acts very strongly on beta-1 receptors