Agmatine

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    Agmatine


    Anyone ever try this supplement and is any better than arginine

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    its supposedly better but man did it give me the sh#ts, and bad. id go with gplc before this
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    I've used both GPLC and Agmatine and both feel different to me. Agmatine is good stuff though. I like it at 1000mg a day the best. 500mg pre and 500mg post good pumps and recovery.

    Never had the squirts from it either, just to show the other side of the coin.

    Genomyx Protocol V2 and SNS bulk Agmatine caps would make an excellent stack.
    •   
       

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    It's in quite a few products.
    I'd try either Protocol, Maximize V2, or SNS Agmatine.

    Works very well at producing phenomenal pumps and I never had ANY stomach issues with this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnatural View Post
    It's in quite a few products.
    I'd try either Protocol, Maximize V2, or SNS Agmatine.

    Works very well at producing phenomenal pumps and I never had ANY stomach issues with this one.
    Agmatine is an interesting compound- but it does block NMDA receptor activity, so it is a no-go with DAA products:
    Neurosci Res. 2005 Aug;52(4):387-92.

    Effect of agmatine on heteromeric N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor channels.
    Askalany AR, Yamakura T, Petrenko AB, Kohno T, Sakimura K, Baba H.

    Division of Anesthesiology, Niigata University Graduate School of Medical and Dental Sciences, Niigata 951-8510, Japan.

    Abstract
    Endogenous polyamines like spermine are known to have four distinct effects on recombinant N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor channels: voltage-dependent inhibition, glycine-dependent stimulation, glycine-independent stimulation and decreased affinity to the agonist (l-glutamate). These effects are highly dependent on the constituting epsilon subunits (epsilon1-epsilon4) of the recombinant NMDA receptor channels. Agmatine reportedly inhibits native NMDA receptor channels in cultured hippocampal neurons. In the present investigation, the effects of agmatine on the epsilon/zeta heteromeric NMDA receptor channels expressed in Xenopus laevis oocytes were examined using the two-electrode voltage clamp method. Agmatine inhibited the four epsilon/zeta (epsilon1/zeta1, epsilon2/zeta1, epsilon3/zeta1 and epsilon4/zeta1) channels with similar sensitivity (an IC50 value of about 300microM at -70mV). This effect was dependent on the membrane potential and was more pronounced at hyperpolarized membrane potentials (voltage-dependent inhibition). Agmatine did not exhibit other stimulatory (glycine-dependent and -independent effects) or inhibitory (decreased affinity to l-glutamate) effects. These properties are similar to the pharmacological profile of well-characterized NMDA receptor channel blockers like phencyclidine and ketamine. Thus, regarding the effects on the NMDA receptor channels, agmatine is not like other endogenous polyamines rather it acts as a channel blocker.


    It does have some positive effects on GH and in some other areas- something to look into.....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals
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    interesting excerpt...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnatural View Post
    interesting excerpt...
    Other than not going well with DAA- agmatine has some potentially very interesting physique-enhancement qualities
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobel252 View Post
    Anyone ever try this supplement and is any better than arginine
    I really enjoyed it... 500mg seemed to definitely be enough. I've used it on and off on upper-body days for months. Arginine has never once elicited a noticeable volumization effect as far as I can tell. The one and only old-school arginine based supplement that ever worked for me was Plasmajet. Now, I really don't have a dependable go-to pump product, aside from carbs with a good GDA like Need to Slin or Recompadrol, and agmatine works well on concert with other additives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Agmatine is an interesting compound- but it does block NMDA receptor activity, so it is a no-go with DAA products:
    Neurosci Res. 2005 Aug;52(4):387-92.

    Effect of agmatine on heteromeric N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor channels.
    Askalany AR, Yamakura T, Petrenko AB, Kohno T, Sakimura K, Baba H.

    Division of Anesthesiology, Niigata University Graduate School of Medical and Dental Sciences, Niigata 951-8510, Japan.

    Abstract
    Endogenous polyamines like spermine are known to have four distinct effects on recombinant N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor channels: voltage-dependent inhibition, glycine-dependent stimulation, glycine-independent stimulation and decreased affinity to the agonist (l-glutamate). These effects are highly dependent on the constituting epsilon subunits (epsilon1-epsilon4) of the recombinant NMDA receptor channels. Agmatine reportedly inhibits native NMDA receptor channels in cultured hippocampal neurons. In the present investigation, the effects of agmatine on the epsilon/zeta heteromeric NMDA receptor channels expressed in Xenopus laevis oocytes were examined using the two-electrode voltage clamp method. Agmatine inhibited the four epsilon/zeta (epsilon1/zeta1, epsilon2/zeta1, epsilon3/zeta1 and epsilon4/zeta1) channels with similar sensitivity (an IC50 value of about 300microM at -70mV). This effect was dependent on the membrane potential and was more pronounced at hyperpolarized membrane potentials (voltage-dependent inhibition). Agmatine did not exhibit other stimulatory (glycine-dependent and -independent effects) or inhibitory (decreased affinity to l-glutamate) effects. These properties are similar to the pharmacological profile of well-characterized NMDA receptor channel blockers like phencyclidine and ketamine. Thus, regarding the effects on the NMDA receptor channels, agmatine is not like other endogenous polyamines rather it acts as a channel blocker.


    It does have some positive effects on GH and in some other areas- something to look into.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bnatural View Post
    interesting excerpt...
    uh oh . . . .http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/s...1-1-units.html
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    Sweet Deal!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uziel View Post
    Sweet Deal!!!!
    sure is, just dont stack 'em!
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    i luv this stuff .. take 1000mg 45-1hr pre workout .. luv this stuff
    S.n.S team member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Other than not going well with DAA- agmatine has some potentially very interesting physique-enhancement qualities
    oh most definitely, I was just unaware of the daa issue.
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    You guys are tempting me to try it, just curious if its worth the cost compared to what else i could get for the same price
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    You guys are tempting me to try it, just curious if its worth the cost compared to what else i could get for the same price
    It's in hemavol and I had great pumps... For what it's worth

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    Quote Originally Posted by StakedCop View Post
    It's in hemavol and I had great pumps... For what it's worth
    yea i tried a sample of hemavol when it was fresh on the market and enjoyed it but theres too many other ingredients to be able to tell how well the agmatine works solo :-/
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    yea i tried a sample of hemavol when it was fresh on the market and enjoyed it but theres too many other ingredients to be able to tell how well the agmatine works solo :-/
    Hmhh send me a PM , ill get u some solo agmatine caps and u compare it
    S.n.S team member
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    Has there been a consensus about whether or not 1g works vastly better than 500mg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outstanding View Post
    Has there been a consensus about whether or not 1g works vastly better than 500mg?
    rarely is there ever a consensus on anything.but dinoii seems to have put the most research into it with MAN"S blueprint, and 1 gm is the rec dose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    rarely is there ever a consensus on anything.but dinoii seems to have put the most research into it with MAN"S blueprint, and 1 gm is the rec dose.
    Mucho Gracias.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    hehe, i guess they didnt see that article
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    yea i dose 750mg-1g .. perfect dose
    S.n.S team member
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    I would create a little pre-workout ****tail

    Citrulline Malate 3g
    Creatine Nitrate 1000mg
    Agmatine 1000mg
    Beta-Alanine 2g
    Glucuronolactone 1g
    LCLT 1g
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnatural View Post
    I would create a little pre-workout ****tail

    Citrulline Malate 3g
    Creatine Nitrate 1000mg
    Agmatine 1000mg
    Beta-Alanine 2g
    Glucuronolactone 1g
    LCLT 1g
    Thats an awesome mix man. Throw in EndoAmp and I think I'll give this stack a try
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    i had no idea DAA shouldn't be used w/ agmatine? im using DAA now and i literally just bought some agmatine and was going to be using it tomorrow. glad i read the thread.
    after stopping the DAA how long should i wait to use it?
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    I enjoyed Amgatine, its got a tremendous amount of health benefits as well. I would try Focus XT/Agamtine or Protocol/Agmatine as mentioned.
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    MAN combines DAA and Amgatine in there formula. They are pretty smart people where supplements are concerned.

    Agmatine
    Like Huperzine A, Agmatine is also believed to be able to prevent the highly unlikely event of D-Aspartic Acid induced neuro-toxicity. In short, Agmatine is believed to do so by preventing over-excitation of NMDA receptors and reversing the levels of activation.

    The important thing to distinguish here is that exogenous application of Agmatine and D-Aspartic acid work on different mechanisms for the NMDA receptor, so regardless of one being an antagonist and the other an agonist, they do not overlap. Exogenous D-aspartic acid application utilizes the R-type VGCCs and none of the others, while exogenous Agmatine is said to use the L-type VGCCs and shows no signs of inhibition of the R-type VGCCs. Exogenous application of Agmatine will enhance its regulatory role in the body so that in higher levels of NMDA receptor activation, it will inhibit the receptor from higher glutamate release (so over-excitation leading to potential neuro-toxicity) by inhibiting the receptor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potatobake View Post
    i had no idea DAA shouldn't be used w/ agmatine? im using DAA now and i literally just bought some agmatine and was going to be using it tomorrow. glad i read the thread.
    after stopping the DAA how long should i wait to use it?
    Huh? Use the DAA with agmatine! They are actually better when combined!
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potatobake View Post
    i had no idea DAA shouldn't be used w/ agmatine? im using DAA now and i literally just bought some agmatine and was going to be using it tomorrow. glad i read the thread.after stopping the DAA how long should i wait to use it?
    I've done the stack w/ great results .. I've read the article as well .. IonoThere's a good log going on .. Pm me for a link
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    There is a possibility to have some really good discussion in this thread about taking agmatine with DAA. Seems like there are some opposing thoughts regarding this.
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    From Synapsin:

    I wrote about something similar to this else where, so let me go into some detail about the NMDA receptor (easy to find anywhere, nothing original here besides some concepts I was personally toying with, and I should note it was done on my phone so don't get mad if my grammar is poor):


    "The NMDA receptor is an ionotropic receptor that allows for the transfer of electrical signals between neurons in the brain and in the spinal column. For electrical signals to pass, the NMDA receptor must be open. To remain open, an NMDA receptor must bind to glutamate and to glycine. An NMDA receptor that is bound to glycine and glutamate and has an open ion channel is called "activated."

    NMDA receptors aren't activated easily. The receptor is blocked by Mg2+ so it needs to have sufficient depolarization. Even if you have Aspartic acid there (or Glutamate), you need Glycine to be there as well. So you need a few things at once to activate the NMDA receptors, the key thing being the depolarization of say an AMPA receptor near by before any of the binding even matters. Test force gets around the issue of Glycine by using Sarcosine.

    NMDA receptors have different subunits, and the effects of the subunits upon activation. Basic message to take home is that DAA is likely not going to elicit toxicity (due to A and B noted below) because toxicity most likely only comes from NR2B subunit. But if it DOES elicist neurotoxicity, keep reading on how to address this.


    A) NR2B-NR2A developmental switch (hypothesis)
    B) NR2A probably has a higher affinity than NR2B when it comes L/D-Aspartate


    Chemicals that deactivate the NMDA receptor are called antagonists. NMDAR antagonists fall into four categories:

    1) Competitive antagonists, which bind to and block the binding site of the neurotransmitter glutamate;
    2) Glycine antagonists, which bind to and block the glycine site;
    3) Noncompetitive antagonists, which inhibit NMDARs by binding to allosteric sites; and
    4) Uncompetitive antagonists, which block the ion channel by binding to a site within it."

    Something worthy of a read:

    "Agmatine Selectively Blocks theN-Methyl-d-Aspartate Subclass of Glutamate Receptor Channels in Rat Hippocampal Neurons1

    Abstract

    We investigated in rat hippocampus neurons whether 4-(aminobutyl)guanidine (agmatine), formed by decarboxylation ofl-arginine by arginine decarboxylase and metabolized to urea and putrescine, can modulate the function ofN-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor channels. In cultured hippocampal neurons studied by whole-cell patch clamp, extracellular-applied agmatine produced a voltage- and concentration-dependent block of NMDA but not α-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazolepropionic acid nor kainate currents. Analysis of the voltage dependence of the block suggests that agmatine binds at a site located within the NMDA channel pore with a dissociation constant of 952 μM at 0 mV and an electric distance of 0.62. We also tested effects of several agmatine analogs. Arcaine (1,4-butyldiguanidine) also produced a similar voltage-dependent block of the NMDA current, whereas putrescine (1,4-butyldiamine) had little effect, suggesting that the guanidine group of agmatine is the active moiety when blocking the NMDA channel. Moreover, spermine (an endogenous polyamine) potentiated the NMDA current even in the presence of blocker agmatine or arcaine, suggesting that the guanidine-containing compounds agmatine and arcaine interact with the NMDA channel at a binding site different from that of spermine. Our results indicate that in hippocampal neurons agmatine selectively modulates the NMDA subclass of glutamate receptor channels mediated by the interaction between the guanidine group and the channel pore. The results support other data that agmatine may function as an endogenous neurotransmitter/neuromodulator in brain."

    Also:

    Effect of Agmatine Against Cell Death Induced by NMDA and Glutamate in Neurons and PC12 Cells

    "Therefore, it is conceivable that agmatine, coreleased with glutamate, may act to
    inhibit the activation of NMDA receptors during conditions leading to higher glutamate
    release. Further in vivo studies, measuring the release of agmatine along with
    glutamate are required to verify this hypothesis.
    In summary, we have provided evidence that agmatine is a neuroprotective
    molecule and reduces excitotoxic cell death induced by glutamate or NMDA.

    .....

    Agmatine protects against cell damage induced by NMDA and glutamate in cultured hippocampal neurons."

    "Taken together, these results demonstrate that agmatine can protect cultured hippocampal neurons from NMDA- or glutamate-induced excitotoxicity, through a possible blockade of the NMDA receptor channels or a potential anti-apoptotic property."

    Another thing to keep in mind from the paper I just pasted above:

    "Because axons that innervate pyramidal cells are glutamatergic and
    pyramidal cells expressNMDAsubclass of glutamate receptors, it has been proposed
    that agmatine may be costored and released with glutamate as a counterregulatory
    molecule. Electrophysiological studies of cultured hippocampal neurons have also
    supported the contention that agmatine selectively inhibitedNMDAchannels (Yang
    and Reis, 1999).

    While these previous studies suggested a possible regulatory role for agmatine
    in normal glutamatergic neurotransmission, agmatine may also play a role in pathological conditions involving higher activation ofNMDAreceptors. Thus, agmatine
    is protective against ischemic injury (Gilad, 1996b), spinal cord injury (Fairbanks
    et al., 2000; Gilad and Gilad 2000; Yu et al., 2000) and neuropathic pain (Fairbanks
    et al., 1998), conditions that arise from higher NMDA receptor activation and are
    reversed byNMDAreceptor antagonists. The present study has provided further evidence
    that the neuroprotective action of agmatine could be mediated by the blockade
    of NMDA receptors."

    Dr. Houser was actually asked this before (http://www.*************/forum/ask-dr...-question.html)

    Anyhow, I wrote a post about this on a different forum concerning DAA and something with a similar concept to Agmatine in terms of neuroprotective methods, Huperzine A.

    Some key differences though:

    "Agmatine Fails to Inhibit Cell Death Induced by Calcimycin or Staurosporin
    To address the question whether the effect of agmatine on cell death is mediated
    by nonspecific blockade of cation channels or by inhibiting intracellular protein
    kinase pathways, we investigated other nonexcitoxic cell death models. Calcimycin,
    a calcium channel opener, caused a significant increase in LDH release in neurons
    (4% vs. 11.5%) and PC12 (4% vs. 12%) cells, indicating marked cell death (Fig. 5).
    Agmatine (100 M), when incubated with calcimycin, failed to inhibit the elevated
    release of LDH.Asimilar result was obtained with staurosporin, which causes apoptotic
    cell death by intracellular actions, where LDH release was not inhibited by
    agmatine (100 M) in neurons and PC12 cells (Fig. 5)."

    What I said about Huperzine A:

    "Huperzine A (?100 M) had no effect on the binding of [3H]glutamate (low- and high-affinity glutamate sites), [3H]MDL 105,519 (NMDA glycine regulatory site), [3H]ifenprodil (NMDA polyamine site) or [3H]CGS 19755 (NMDA antagonist). These are the things we really worry about when we talk about DAA and NMDA receptors.

    In contrast with these results, HUP-A non-competitively (Hill slope < 1) inhibited [3H]MK-801 and [3H]TCP binding (co-located NMDA ion channel PCP site) with pseudo Ki ? 6 M.

    Therefore, HUP-A most likely attenuates excitatory amino acid toxicity by blocking the NMDA ion channel and subsequent Ca2+ mobilization at or near the PCP and MK-801 ligand sites."

    Now that we have all that said, key thing to keep in mind, once the NMDA receptor is activated (takes a few things to be activated), that is it, it will release the neurotransmitter. If glutamate induced NMDA activation is co-activated with Agmatine release, I would assume that taking DAA will also increase endogenous Agmatine release in order to protect you from glutamatergic neurotoxicity. We can sort of thing of Agmatine as acting as a buffer to keep DAA from over exciting NDMA receptors.

    We have DAA present (check, so more NMDA activation now with Glycine, Ca+2 current, agonist DAA here), Agmatine doesn't affect Calcium intracellular mechanisms (check, you need the depolarization to stop the Mg+2 from blocking the site), Glycine present (will happen for activation of the receptor, so check). Say the NMDA receptor is now activated, releases Glutamate, blah blah blah, the Agmatine in the product in theory based on what I posted above is also endogenously released, so exogenous application will enhance that regulatory role of Agmatine so that in higher levels of NMDA receptor activation, it will inhibit the receptor from higher glutamate release (so overexcitation leading to potential neurotoxicity) by inhibting the receptor. Basically Agmatine might be able to prevent the neurotoxicity you always hear about when talking about DAA by preventing overexcitation of NMDA receptors/ reversing the levels of activation.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    From Synapsin:

    I wrote about something similar to this else where, so let me go into some detail about the NMDA receptor (easy to find anywhere, nothing original here besides some concepts I was personally toying with, and I should note it was done on my phone so don't get mad if my grammar is poor):


    "The NMDA receptor is an ionotropic receptor that allows for the transfer of electrical signals between neurons in the brain and in the spinal column. For electrical signals to pass, the NMDA receptor must be open. To remain open, an NMDA receptor must bind to glutamate and to glycine. An NMDA receptor that is bound to glycine and glutamate and has an open ion channel is called "activated."

    NMDA receptors aren't activated easily. The receptor is blocked by Mg2+ so it needs to have sufficient depolarization. Even if you have Aspartic acid there (or Glutamate), you need Glycine to be there as well. So you need a few things at once to activate the NMDA receptors, the key thing being the depolarization of say an AMPA receptor near by before any of the binding even matters. Test force gets around the issue of Glycine by using Sarcosine.

    NMDA receptors have different subunits, and the effects of the subunits upon activation. Basic message to take home is that DAA is likely not going to elicit toxicity (due to A and B noted below) because toxicity most likely only comes from NR2B subunit. But if it DOES elicist neurotoxicity, keep reading on how to address this.


    A) NR2B-NR2A developmental switch (hypothesis)
    B) NR2A probably has a higher affinity than NR2B when it comes L/D-Aspartate


    Chemicals that deactivate the NMDA receptor are called antagonists. NMDAR antagonists fall into four categories:

    1) Competitive antagonists, which bind to and block the binding site of the neurotransmitter glutamate;
    2) Glycine antagonists, which bind to and block the glycine site;
    3) Noncompetitive antagonists, which inhibit NMDARs by binding to allosteric sites; and
    4) Uncompetitive antagonists, which block the ion channel by binding to a site within it."

    Something worthy of a read:

    "Agmatine Selectively Blocks theN-Methyl-d-Aspartate Subclass of Glutamate Receptor Channels in Rat Hippocampal Neurons1

    Abstract

    We investigated in rat hippocampus neurons whether 4-(aminobutyl)guanidine (agmatine), formed by decarboxylation ofl-arginine by arginine decarboxylase and metabolized to urea and putrescine, can modulate the function ofN-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor channels. In cultured hippocampal neurons studied by whole-cell patch clamp, extracellular-applied agmatine produced a voltage- and concentration-dependent block of NMDA but not α-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazolepropionic acid nor kainate currents. Analysis of the voltage dependence of the block suggests that agmatine binds at a site located within the NMDA channel pore with a dissociation constant of 952 μM at 0 mV and an electric distance of 0.62. We also tested effects of several agmatine analogs. Arcaine (1,4-butyldiguanidine) also produced a similar voltage-dependent block of the NMDA current, whereas putrescine (1,4-butyldiamine) had little effect, suggesting that the guanidine group of agmatine is the active moiety when blocking the NMDA channel. Moreover, spermine (an endogenous polyamine) potentiated the NMDA current even in the presence of blocker agmatine or arcaine, suggesting that the guanidine-containing compounds agmatine and arcaine interact with the NMDA channel at a binding site different from that of spermine. Our results indicate that in hippocampal neurons agmatine selectively modulates the NMDA subclass of glutamate receptor channels mediated by the interaction between the guanidine group and the channel pore. The results support other data that agmatine may function as an endogenous neurotransmitter/neuromodulator in brain."

    Also:

    Effect of Agmatine Against Cell Death Induced by NMDA and Glutamate in Neurons and PC12 Cells

    "Therefore, it is conceivable that agmatine, coreleased with glutamate, may act to
    inhibit the activation of NMDA receptors during conditions leading to higher glutamate
    release. Further in vivo studies, measuring the release of agmatine along with
    glutamate are required to verify this hypothesis.
    In summary, we have provided evidence that agmatine is a neuroprotective
    molecule and reduces excitotoxic cell death induced by glutamate or NMDA.

    .....

    Agmatine protects against cell damage induced by NMDA and glutamate in cultured hippocampal neurons."

    "Taken together, these results demonstrate that agmatine can protect cultured hippocampal neurons from NMDA- or glutamate-induced excitotoxicity, through a possible blockade of the NMDA receptor channels or a potential anti-apoptotic property."

    Another thing to keep in mind from the paper I just pasted above:

    "Because axons that innervate pyramidal cells are glutamatergic and
    pyramidal cells expressNMDAsubclass of glutamate receptors, it has been proposed
    that agmatine may be costored and released with glutamate as a counterregulatory
    molecule. Electrophysiological studies of cultured hippocampal neurons have also
    supported the contention that agmatine selectively inhibitedNMDAchannels (Yang
    and Reis, 1999).

    While these previous studies suggested a possible regulatory role for agmatine
    in normal glutamatergic neurotransmission, agmatine may also play a role in pathological conditions involving higher activation ofNMDAreceptors. Thus, agmatine
    is protective against ischemic injury (Gilad, 1996b), spinal cord injury (Fairbanks
    et al., 2000; Gilad and Gilad 2000; Yu et al., 2000) and neuropathic pain (Fairbanks
    et al., 1998), conditions that arise from higher NMDA receptor activation and are
    reversed byNMDAreceptor antagonists. The present study has provided further evidence
    that the neuroprotective action of agmatine could be mediated by the blockade
    of NMDA receptors."

    Dr. Houser was actually asked this before (http://www.*************/forum/ask-dr...-question.html)

    Anyhow, I wrote a post about this on a different forum concerning DAA and something with a similar concept to Agmatine in terms of neuroprotective methods, Huperzine A.

    Some key differences though:

    "Agmatine Fails to Inhibit Cell Death Induced by Calcimycin or Staurosporin
    To address the question whether the effect of agmatine on cell death is mediated
    by nonspecific blockade of cation channels or by inhibiting intracellular protein
    kinase pathways, we investigated other nonexcitoxic cell death models. Calcimycin,
    a calcium channel opener, caused a significant increase in LDH release in neurons
    (4% vs. 11.5%) and PC12 (4% vs. 12%) cells, indicating marked cell death (Fig. 5).
    Agmatine (100 M), when incubated with calcimycin, failed to inhibit the elevated
    release of LDH.Asimilar result was obtained with staurosporin, which causes apoptotic
    cell death by intracellular actions, where LDH release was not inhibited by
    agmatine (100 M) in neurons and PC12 cells (Fig. 5)."

    What I said about Huperzine A:

    "Huperzine A (?100 M) had no effect on the binding of [3H]glutamate (low- and high-affinity glutamate sites), [3H]MDL 105,519 (NMDA glycine regulatory site), [3H]ifenprodil (NMDA polyamine site) or [3H]CGS 19755 (NMDA antagonist). These are the things we really worry about when we talk about DAA and NMDA receptors.

    In contrast with these results, HUP-A non-competitively (Hill slope < 1) inhibited [3H]MK-801 and [3H]TCP binding (co-located NMDA ion channel PCP site) with pseudo Ki ? 6 M.

    Therefore, HUP-A most likely attenuates excitatory amino acid toxicity by blocking the NMDA ion channel and subsequent Ca2+ mobilization at or near the PCP and MK-801 ligand sites."

    Now that we have all that said, key thing to keep in mind, once the NMDA receptor is activated (takes a few things to be activated), that is it, it will release the neurotransmitter. If glutamate induced NMDA activation is co-activated with Agmatine release, I would assume that taking DAA will also increase endogenous Agmatine release in order to protect you from glutamatergic neurotoxicity. We can sort of thing of Agmatine as acting as a buffer to keep DAA from over exciting NDMA receptors.

    We have DAA present (check, so more NMDA activation now with Glycine, Ca+2 current, agonist DAA here), Agmatine doesn't affect Calcium intracellular mechanisms (check, you need the depolarization to stop the Mg+2 from blocking the site), Glycine present (will happen for activation of the receptor, so check). Say the NMDA receptor is now activated, releases Glutamate, blah blah blah, the Agmatine in the product in theory based on what I posted above is also endogenously released, so exogenous application will enhance that regulatory role of Agmatine so that in higher levels of NMDA receptor activation, it will inhibit the receptor from higher glutamate release (so overexcitation leading to potential neurotoxicity) by inhibting the receptor. Basically Agmatine might be able to prevent the neurotoxicity you always hear about when talking about DAA by preventing overexcitation of NMDA receptors/ reversing the levels of activation.
    The other day neuron and you mentioned DAA as a nootropic on bb.com...how would you dose that for nootropic? Like if I get that flashover + DAA deal would it be best to take the two together perhaps preworkout (since flashover has glycine in it) and they would just work by building up in my system or does it work acutely like take it/them before I study/apply myself at work? My main goal would be taking it for increased mental performance since I was honestly going to throw the DAA in the traders thread before I read you guys talking about its nootropic potential
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    I take 2-2.5g agmatine preworkout btw
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    In to see where this goes.


    Edit: quadzilla, you can see a lot of stuff like rodent and boar studies supporting a long term build up, and at the same time anecdotal feed back and theory on instant stimulation.

    I wanna hear what the smarter guys have to say but looks like long term for memory and acute stimulatory effect(and cases of heightened senses) when used in some form like you mention(preworkout).

    Pretty cool stuff if you dig.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
    "Train like a beast, think like a human"-RTS
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    Interesting. I have ran agmatine and Daa together in a few different stacks and I don't know if the DAA was affected but I know I always get crazy pumps with the agmatine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GQNemesis View Post
    yea i dose 750mg-1g .. perfect dose
    I try to aim for 1-1.5 grams. Mainly because I have a few tubs of Prima Force and that comes in the odd dosing of 750mg per scoop :P
  

  
 

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