Long Term Test Boosters

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nobel252

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Is there any downfall or testosterone suppression from constantly cycling test boosters. After my last cycle which was 6 months ago I ran DAA and a high dose of tongkat Ali extract for 3 months and I maintained my total test to over 900 and after the DAA/tongkat stack I've switched to phytoserms and fadogia-500 and I'm still making gains. My worries is over stressing luetenizing hormone which can in longterm suppress test and rise estrogen. Could I keep switching these two stacks every two or three months long term or should I take a break in between. Any advice appreciated
 
AtomicFox

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Good question, I'm no scientist but as most supplements when taking them for a prolonged time your body gets resistant to the effects, so you would probably experience a reduced effect from the supplements. I do not believe that it would have any negative effect on the HPTA since that would require an intake of exogenous hormones.

If I were to do as you would I would cycle the test boosters 8 weeks on 4 weeks of and use different products at every other cycle.

It is pretty nice that you can keep your test levels at 900n. Have you ever one any hormonal cycles? And what natural test-booster cycle did you benefit the most from?
 
rulk22

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I want to know your results with running DAA for so long, as im interested in running DAA, TCF-1 longer than the study. I think ive heard Patrick Arnold taking his Test Force 2 for prolonged periods without breaks and seeing zero side effects. To be on the safe side, id give your body a break for at least 4 weeks if not 6 or even 8 weeks. Good luck with everything.
 
R1balla

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i do not know exactly about DAA, but constant high levels of test in your body leading to your older age can lead to prostate cancer
 
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Thanks for the replies. Believe it or not last year my total test was 260 then my endo put me on test e. 100mgs and told me I need to take it for life because I suffer from hypogonadism. I told him I want to take a chance of getting off of it once my test level gets high enough then supplement with natural test boosters because I was tired of taking injections every week and I would like to go natural. So after 3 months of test e. I stopped it then started 20 mgs of tamoxifin, 6 grams of testforce and 1200 mgs of Tongkat ali extract 1:200. Cycled that for about 3 months now using phtytoserms and fadogia and 35% of diet is good fats. Libidio is very high, getting slightly stronger but when I was on daa/tongkat I had better results meaning more strength adding extra reps each week which is pretty good after coming off 12 weeks of test. After my phyto/fadogia cycle I want to go back and do daa/tongkat but was thinking of trying a different brand of daa because of price issues. Im hoping that I will get similar results.
 
EasyEJL

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Well, what you basically should look at is that there are 4 major mechanisms you can manipulate for testosterone boost. those are

1) products that directly primarily increase testosterone
2) products that increase LH
3) products that lower estrogen to signal more testosterone production
4) products that lower SHBG giving you more free testosterone.

now you can combine the products, and there are products out that hit more than one of these areas at a time. But as far as your overall question of cycling them long term goes, I think the best bet would be to do overlaps and what I mean is

week 1-4 product of type 4 + product of type 1
week 5-8 product of type 1 + product of type 2
week 9-12 product of type 2 + product of type 3
week 13-16 product of type 3 + product of type 4

then repeat. I'm not trying to say that an estrogen lowering agent works better with something that lowers shbg, but moreso you should try and keep the effects broken out like this, so that even though you are doing an LH raising product like fadogia for 8 weeks you'll have a full 8 weeks before you use it again, and that the differing product types are overlapped for effectiveness.
 
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I like that advice. So what would be a good supplement to take that dosent affect LH but raises test. For lowering estrogen and raising test Id probably go with Erase.
 
GodofWine

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25mg clomid daily, even eod will work. Long term safety is fairly well established...though its not exactly OTC...just have a pet rat.
 
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Test protects against prostate cancer. Its the balance of estrogens and androgens thats nore telling. It seems ilogical to me to say that the male hormone responsible for so much good causes cancer in a specifically male organ.
 
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"Testosterone and Cancer!
Hormones & Prostate Cancer in Men!

I have been unable to find any solid evidence that supplementing to increase testosterone into normal ranges increases the risk of cancer.

In fact, it appears that failure to treat low testosterone, may actually increase the risk.





In his book, Testosterone for Life, Harvard Doctor, Abraham Morgentaler, wrote..
"Early in this century, Dr. Charles Huggins' Nobel prize winning experiments showed that castration or injection of estrogen can cure or prevent prostate cancer.

Since that time, the standard education of medicine has been that testosterone is bad for the prostate. Therefore, male hormone replacement therapy can be risky.

After over 65 years, recently, new scientific discoveries has shown just the opposite.

Low blood levels of testosterone do not protect against prostate cancer, and actually may increase the risk. High testosterone level do not increase the risk of prostate cancer!"

According to Robert Davis, MD, professor of urology at the University of Rochester, N.Y.

"One of the myths is that androgen supplementation will cause a cancer. We know that prostate cancer often regresses when androgen is removed, but there is very little evidence that supplementing to normal levels increases risk of cancer, and some evidence it may actually lower it."





The Dangers of Low Testosterone!






The lower a man's testosterone level, the higher his risk of death.

Men with lower testosterone levels have an increased risk of dying from any cause, according to University of Cambridge gerontologist Kay Tee Khaw.

According to his study done with nearly 12,000 men between 1993 to 1997, there is a strong link between low testosterone and early death.

During the study period more than 800 men died. After looking at the testosterone levels of these men, here is what he found.


Compared to men with the lowest testosterone levelsMen with the second lowest levels were 25% less likely to die
Men with the second highest levels were 38% less likely to die
Men with the highest levels were 41% less likely to die









The bottom line!

I think the evidence is clear! If you are a man it's very important that you keep your testosteron levels up in the normal range.

If you let your testosterone levels fall too low, you will increase your risk of premature death.

Fortunately, there is plenty of information on this site that will show you how to safely increase your testosterone levels naturally"
 
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Patrick was running his daa product and testing for about a year continuously.
 
Robboe

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The Dangers of Low Testosterone!
The lower a man's testosterone level, the higher his risk of death.

Men with lower testosterone levels have an increased risk of dying from any cause, according to University of Cambridge gerontologist Kay Tee Khaw.

According to his study done with nearly 12,000 men between 1993 to 1997, there is a strong link between low testosterone and early death.

During the study period more than 800 men died. After looking at the testosterone levels of these men, here is what he found.


Compared to men with the lowest testosterone levelsMen with the second lowest levels were 25% less likely to die
Men with the second highest levels were 38% less likely to die
Men with the highest levels were 41% less likely to die

The bottom line!

I think the evidence is clear! If you are a man it's very important that you keep your testosteron levels up in the normal range.

If you let your testosterone levels fall too low, you will increase your risk of premature death.

Fortunately, there is plenty of information on this site that will show you how to safely increase your testosterone levels naturally"
There are several negative ramifications of low testosterone in men: http://www.getds.com/20110208159/Blog/the-risks-of-low-testosterone
 
mich29

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Is there any downfall or testosterone suppression from constantly cycling test boosters. After my last cycle which was 6 months ago I ran DAA and a high dose of tongkat Ali extract for 3 months and I maintained my total test to over 900 and after the DAA/tongkat stack I've switched to phytoserms and fadogia-500 and I'm still making gains. My worries is over stressing luetenizing hormone which can in longterm suppress test and rise estrogen. Could I keep switching these two stacks every two or three months long term or should I take a break in between. Any advice appreciated
glad to hear you enjoyed your run with phytoserms.also interesting info about the daa and tae. I would say the smart thing to do is to take breaks to give your body time to balance out and work like it normally would since these items are affecting your test.
 
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nobel252

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glad to hear you enjoyed your run with phytoserms.also interesting info about the daa and tae. I would say the smart thing to do is to take breaks to give your body time to balance out and work like it normally would since these items are affecting your test.
Makes sense. Thanks for advice. Btw Ive on week four of Phytoserms at 3 caps a day and definitely noticing strength gains
 
rulk22

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Hmm.. Is there a chance to get back on the Test E. for awhile? Also have you ever giving thought to trying our Phyto Testosterone product? Sounds to me that getting off everything will put you back to square one.
 
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nobel252

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Hmm.. Is there a chance to get back on the Test E. for awhile? Also have you ever giving thought to trying our Phyto Testosterone product? Sounds to me that getting off everything will put you back to square one.
Funny you mentioned. I was actually thinking of starting Phtyotest, Titanium or Testopro in the next 2 weeks. I dont think my endo would put me back on test e with levels over 900 unless I stopped everything and my test dropped down to under 300.
 
scoooter

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I like this idea of cycling the different types of t-boosters. I would like to know some specific products of each type that actually work well, so that I can try a couple of cycles. If posting specific brands here is frowned upon, then please send me suggestions in a private email.

Thanks! This approach makes sense to me. . .Especially for us older guys (50+) that wish to maintain more youthful testosterone levels.
X2 for info.

How does this cycle rate ?

1 = need some input here
2 = SA (Sustain Alpha)
3 = Erase
4 = Unleashed

cycle off 4 weeks
repeat, with possible substitutions
 
R1balla

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just pretty much studies, nothing proven....

pretty much...studies show in CAN and MAY lead to kidney/prostate/liver cancer.....

the other concerns are baldness, acne, and increased aggression...

take these studies with a grain of salt and do research and find what works for you
 
ryansm

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Funny you mentioned. I was actually thinking of starting Phtyotest, Titanium or Testopro in the next 2 weeks. I dont think my endo would put me back on test e with levels over 900 unless I stopped everything and my test dropped down to under 300.
I would like to hear how a Fenugreek type product worked out for you.
 
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i do not know exactly about DAA, but constant high levels of test in your body leading to your older age can lead to prostate cancer
Test protects against prostate cancer. Its the balance of estrogens and androgens thats nore telling. It seems ilogical to me to say that the male hormone responsible for so much good causes cancer in a specifically male organ.
just pretty much studies, nothing proven....

pretty much...studies show in CAN and MAY lead to kidney/prostate/liver cancer.....

the other concerns are baldness, acne, and increased aggression...

take these studies with a grain of salt and do research and find what works for you
Just studies... nothing proven? That's not how you phrased it above, "Constant high levels of test in your body leading to your older age can lead to prostate cancer." 1) What long term studies were you referring to, and 2) what did you mean 'leading to your older age?' Also, once you expounded on your statement, you included a couple more tag-along organs (kidney, and liver). You've read in-depth studies that show T levels cause cancer in all those organs? Ramon seems to think T actually protects again cancerous proliferation.

Also, I know about the 'other concerns,' and 'doing research and finding out for myself' isn't what I was looking for. I'm exhaustively well versed in anabolic administration after years upon years of study - 3) I was just concerned about the correlation you drew, with no cited studies, let alone multiple studies that include multiple internal organs, and then respond by telling me to do research.

Please respond when you find time, thank you.
 
R1balla

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im not getting into this again....i have my sources on studies. when its all said and done, take what u want. i choose to cycle it. big deal.

again, i never said those are FACTS. im just stating what certain studies have claimed. i havent seen people messed up by taking test boosters. cycling or not cycling. but i choose to cycle them. and yes, do your OWN research. thats the only what you will be able to decide on your own. dont go by what other people say. take it with a grain of salt, move on, and do your own research. i dont know why ur making a big deal about this. i wasnt saying those are facts, just statements by certain people who claim to have done studies. i choose to cycle, some people dont. who cares. jeez.
 
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im not getting into this again....i have my sources on studies. when its all said and done, take what u want. i choose to cycle it. big deal.

again, i never said those are FACTS. im just stating what certain studies have claimed. i havent seen people messed up by taking test boosters. cycling or not cycling. but i choose to cycle them. and yes, do your OWN research. thats the only what you will be able to decide on your own. dont go by what other people say. take it with a grain of salt, move on, and do your own research. i dont know why ur making a big deal about this. i wasnt saying those are facts, just statements by certain people who claim to have done studies. i choose to cycle, some people dont. who cares. jeez.
So... you've gotten into this before I take it. I'm not surprised by your handling of the situation. I've actually never seen anyone so defensive though.

It would be nice if you precluded your 'test causes cancer' with even a slight disclaimer, and... you've... still... never cited any studies.

Oddly enough, I got my first ever negative rep since I joined this forum, in response to my post. All I was trying to do was spawn an ongoing discussion, but that was met with some blatant hostility, and the same "do your own research, take it with a grain of salt, and insert-another-flimsy-excuse-here."

It's not that big of a deal man, what don't you simply make a post that says "Oh, I'm not an expert and no I don't have the studies, so I'm going to stop digging this hole deeper and trying to defend my defenseless behavior and pseudo science attempts/claims." It's alright, people will respect you more for it, we can't all know everything, especially on some obscure forum in Internet land.
 
TexasLifter89

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So... you've gotten into this before I take it. I'm not surprised by your handling of the situation. I've actually never seen anyone so defensive though.

It would be nice if you precluded your 'test causes cancer' with even a slight disclaimer, and... you've... still... never cited any studies.

Oddly enough, I got my first ever negative rep since I joined this forum, in response to my post. All I was trying to do was spawn an ongoing discussion, but that was met with some blatant hostility, and the same "do your own research, take it with a grain of salt, and insert-another-flimsy-excuse-here."

It's not that big of a deal man, what don't you simply make a post that says "Oh, I'm not an expert and no I don't have the studies, so I'm going to stop digging this hole deeper and trying to defend my defenseless behavior and pseudo science attempts/claims." It's alright, people will respect you more for it, we can't all know everything, especially on some obscure forum in Internet land.
I'm not taking sides as I haven't done research on this topic, however I did a quick google of "high testosterone prostate cancer" and found this, not sure how relevant it is to this discussion though.

Men over 50 years of age with high blood levels of testosterone have an increased risk of prostate cancer, according to a study by researchers at Johns Hopkins and the National Institute on Aging. The finding throws some doubt on the safety of testosterone replacement therapy, the investigators say.

The researchers measured several forms of testosterone in almost 3,000 blood samples collected over a 40-year period from 759 men in the Baltimore Longitudinal Study on Aging, of whom 111 were diagnosed with prostate cancer. One form of testosterone, called free testosterone, which is biologically active and can actually be used by the prostate, was found to be associated with increased prostate cancer risk, according to J. Kellogg Parsons, M.D., instructor of urology at the Brady Urological Institute at Johns Hopkins and lead researcher of the study.

"Since testosterone replacement therapy increases the amount of free testosterone in the blood, older men considering or receiving testosterone replacement should be counseled as to the association until data from long-term clinical trials becomes available," says Parsons.

The association between free testosterone and prostate cancer risk in older men was not affected by height, weight, percent of body fat, or muscle mass. Total testosterone levels and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS), another androgenic hormone, were also unrelated to prostate cancer risk, while the protein that binds testosterone in blood, called sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), was associated with a slightly decreased risk for prostate cancer.

Higher serum free testosterone is associated with an increased risk of prostate cancer: results from the Baltimore longitudinal study on aging. J. Kellogg Parsons, H. Ballentine Carter, Patricia Landis, E. James Wright, Elizabeth Platz, E. Jeffrey Metter.

Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions (2004, May 10). High Blood Testosterone Levels Associated With Increased Prostate Cancer
This study suggests high levels of free testosterone can be linked to prostate cancer. However, after looking through Google scholar (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,44&q=high+testosterone+prostate+cancer) it appears low free testosterone can also cause (or increase likelihood) prostate issues. The odd thing is, that there are studies also that do not support these claims.

All in all, it looks like (and is blatantly stated in a few of the studies) that scientists do not know for sure the relationships of total t/free t to prostate issues. Make what you will of these, but from briefly looking over these findings I've come to the conclusion not enough is known to support or deny the relations.
 
R1balla

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So... you've gotten into this before I take it. I'm not surprised by your handling of the situation. I've actually never seen anyone so defensive though.

It would be nice if you precluded your 'test causes cancer' with even a slight disclaimer, and... you've... still... never cited any studies.

Oddly enough, I got my first ever negative rep since I joined this forum, in response to my post. All I was trying to do was spawn an ongoing discussion, but that was met with some blatant hostility, and the same "do your own research, take it with a grain of salt, and insert-another-flimsy-excuse-here."

It's not that big of a deal man, what don't you simply make a post that says "Oh, I'm not an expert and no I don't have the studies, so I'm going to stop digging this hole deeper and trying to defend my defenseless behavior and pseudo science attempts/claims." It's alright, people will respect you more for it, we can't all know everything, especially on some obscure forum in Internet land.
listen dude, i did all of my studies around '08 about this topic. i dont have time to dig up old crap for you. and no, im not digging a hole. if u wanna talk about this all day i will. i dont need to prove to you that i have my research done. i honestly dont care if you think i have done or not have done. all of my references were on a flash drive, but i cant find it. i was just stating what different studies/websites claim to know.
 
R1balla

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here is a study that shows high testosterone protects against CHD. again, im not on a specific side with the test boosters, i just show the different aspects of it

Men with low testosterone have nearly double the risk of dying from coronary heart disease than those with normal levels.

Researchers said the study, from Royal Hallamshire Hospital in Sheffield, England, disproved previous studies, which said testosterone increases the risk of heart disease.

A trial of 930 men who had been diagnosed with heart disease were analyzed, with one in five who had low testosterone levels dying, compared to one in eight of the men with normal levels.

During the study, researchers found that even men who were described as having "borderline" low testosterone levels still had a significantly higher risk of death from heart disease.

Professor Kevin Channer, author of the study, said he hopes the data will help to overcome testosterone's image problem, which is that it is thought of as causing health problems.

The study was published in the journal Online First Heart.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/10/20/high-testosterone-levels-protects-heart-disease-study-says/#ixzz1F5JYpSTY


here is the link to the actual study

http://heart.bmj.com/content/early/2010/10/05/hrt.2010.207068?q=w_heart_ahead_tab




Now, as Texaslifter89 said, there are different sides to the test theories, so here is the other side to this one.

June 22, 2010 -- The higher a man's level of natural testosterone, the higher his risk of heart problems, according to a new study that looked at testosterone and heart disease only in men 65 and older.

''Increasing levels of testosterone were associated with a higher risk of heart disease and death from heart disease," says Kristen T. Sueoka, MD, a resident physician in internal medicine at the University of California San Francisco, who presented the findings at ENDO 2010, the annual meeting of The Endocrine Society, in San Diego.

Research on testosterone and heart disease has yielded conflicting findings, she tells WebMD, prompting her to do the study.

Sueoka and her colleagues focused on 697 men, average age 72, who were seen at six different U.S. centers from 2000 to 2005 while participating in a study to evaluate fracture risk in older men.

None was taking hormone supplements.

During an average of nearly four years of follow-up, 100 men (14%) had a coronary heart disease event such as a heart attack.

When Sueoka looked at the testosterone levels from the blood tests, she found that higher total testosterone was associated with an increased risk of coronary heart disease.

The men were divided into four groups, from lowest testosterone levels to highest. "People in the two highest quartiles had a 2.2 times increased risk of heart disease compared to those in the lowest."

Defining low vs. high is complicated, Sueoka says, as there is controversy about the measurements. She categorized the men as low vs. high using only the measurements of the 697 men, so the low and high categories are relative.

Higher testosterone, she says, appears to be linked to a higher risk of heart disease once men pass age 65.

Her study was supported by the National Institute on Aging, National Heart Lung and Blood Institute and National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases.



Research findings have gone back and forth about testosterone and heart health, Sueoka tells WebMD. "There are some cross-sectional studies [snapshot in time studies] that have shown an association between low testosterone and higher risk of heart disease death."

"Experts seem to agree that low testosterone is associated with a higher risk of death from heart disease," she says. But it's difficult to know which came first, she says, as men may first get sick and then testosterone declines.

Still under debate, she says, is whether or not testosterone has a cause-and-effect role in heart health.

Exactly how high testosterone might be linked with coronary heart disease isn't clear, Sueoka says. "In some animal models and in the lab, if you give testosterone it can lead to atherosclerosis," she says. But, she adds, there is also some evidence to the contrary, that it improves blood flow and dilates blood vessels, improving heart health.

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20100622/high-testosterone-may-raise-heart-risk
 
thebigt

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as to cardiovascular disease, one of the things my doc told me he was going to watch for when putting me on test cyp was cholesterol levels. test cyp has a tendency to raise cho levels. i have upped my fish oils since starting test cyp and my levels have stayed within range.

as to prostae issues, after doing a lot of research and following a ton of threads from people on testosterone replacement therapy, i believe that high estrogen is the culprit. so since starting test cyp i have been using ai's even though my estrogen level has always been within range. my psi is in the low range.

using hormones comes with risks, but in my case the benefits have more than made up for the risks. and if you are aware of the risks you can take precautions to counter them.

btw-i also take a liver protectant supp daily.

increasing your test may not add years to your life, but it can add life to your years.
 
ryansm

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as to cardiovascular disease, one of the things my doc told me he was going to watch for when putting me on test cyp was cholesterol levels. test cyp has a tendency to raise cho levels. i have upped my fish oils since starting test cyp and my levels have stayed within range.

as to prostae issues, after doing a lot of research and following a ton of threads from people on testosterone replacement therapy, i believe that high estrogen is the culprit. so since starting test cyp i have been using ai's even though my estrogen level has always been within range. my psi is in the low range.

using hormones comes with risks, but in my case the benefits have more than made up for the risks. and if you are aware of the risks you can take precautions to counter them.

btw-i also take a liver protectant supp daily.

increasing your test may not add years to your life, but it can add life to your years.
Interesting so which AI's as these are known to cause issues with chol levels as well?
 
sking6464

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as to cardiovascular disease, one of the things my doc told me he was going to watch for when putting me on test cyp was cholesterol levels. test cyp has a tendency to raise cho levels. i have upped my fish oils since starting test cyp and my levels have stayed within range.

as to prostae issues, after doing a lot of research and following a ton of threads from people on testosterone replacement therapy, i believe that high estrogen is the culprit. so since starting test cyp i have been using ai's even though my estrogen level has always been within range. my psi is in the low range.

using hormones comes with risks, but in my case the benefits have more than made up for the risks. and if you are aware of the risks you can take precautions to counter them.

btw-i also take a liver protectant supp daily.

increasing your test may not add years to your life, but it can add life to your years.


i smell a t shirt :ponder:
 
HondaV65

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The problem with "scientific" studies these days is they often confuse cause / effect.

For instance - if I knew nothing about house fires ... and just landed on this planet ... I might find a fire truck at each location where a burning house was. I could therefore conclude that the trucks had something to do with the houses catching fire.

And I'd be wrong. Testosterone is not bad for you - if it were, males would die in puberty.
 
thebigt

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[/B]

i smell a t shirt :ponder:
funny thing is i stole that line from jim fixx, the author of a book on running for health-the man dies a few years after writing the book.

but i believe in what he said. i would gladly give up 10 years of life for a more healthier life while i have it.
 
R1balla

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using hormones comes with risks, but in my case the benefits have more than made up for the risks. and if you are aware of the risks you can take precautions to counter them.

exactly. i was just stating information that i personally have come across.
 
rms80

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exactly. i was just stating information that i personally have come across.
Many oral AAS can significantly increase LDL and decrease HDL cholesterol- but there is a divergence with injectible testosterone (seems to have little or not effect on cholesterol):

JAMA. 1989 Feb 24;261(8):1165-8.

Contrasting effects of testosterone and stanozolol on serum lipoprotein levels.
Thompson PD, Cullinane EM, Sady SP, Chenevert C, Saritelli AL, Sady MA, Herbert PN.

Department of Medicine, Miriam Hospital, Providence, RI 02906.

Abstract
Oral anabolic steroids produce striking reductions in serum concentrations of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol. We hypothesized that this effect related to their route of administration and was unrelated to their androgenic potency. We administered oral stanozolol (6 mg/d) or supraphysiological doses of intramuscular testosterone enanthate (200 mg/wk) to 11 male weight lifters for six weeks in a crossover design. Stanozolol reduced HDL-cholesterol and the HDL2 subfraction by 33% and 71%, respectively. In contrast, testosterone decreased HDL-cholesterol concentration by only 9% and the decrease was in the HDL3 subfraction. Apolipoprotein A-I level decreased 40% during stanozolol but only 8% during testosterone treatment. The low-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentration increased 29% with stanozolol and decreased 16% with testosterone treatment. Stanozolol, moreover, increased postheparin hepatic triglyceride lipase activity by 123%, whereas the maximum change during testosterone therapy (+25%) was not significant. Weight gain was similar with both drugs, but testosterone was more effective in suppressing gonadotropic hormones. We conclude that the undesirable lipoprotein effects of 17-alpha-alkylated steroids given orally are different from those of parenteral testosterone and that the latter may be preferable in many clinical situations

Metabolism. 1993 Apr;42(4):446-50.

The effect of testosterone aromatization on high-density lipoprotein cholesterol level and postheparin lipolytic activity.
Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, Younkin BT, Bausserman LL, Terry RB, Catlin DH, Thompson PD.

Department of Medicine, Miriam Hospital, Providence, RI.

Abstract
Stanozolol, an oral 17 alpha-alkylated androgen, increases hepatic triglyceride lipase activity (HTGLA) and decreases high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) levels, whereas intramuscular testosterone has comparatively little effect. In the present study, we tested the hypothesis that aromatization of androgen to estrogen blunts the lipid and lipase effects of exogenous testosterone. Fourteen male weightlifters received testosterone enanthate (200 mg/wk intramuscularly), the aromatase inhibitor testolactone (250 mg four times per day), or both drugs together in a randomized cross-over design. Serum testosterone level increased during all three drug treatments, whereas estradiol level increased only with testosterone alone (+47%, P < .05), demonstrating that testolactone effectively inhibited testosterone aromatization. Testosterone decreased HDL-C(-16%, P < .05), HDL2-C(-23%, NS), and apoprotein (apo) A-I (-12%, P < .05) levels, effects that were consistently but not significantly greater with simultaneous testosterone and testolactone administration (HDL-C, -20%; HDL2-C, -30%; apo A-I, -15%; P < .05 for all). In contrast, both testosterone regimens decreased HDL3-C levels by 13% (P < .05 for both). HTGLA increased 21% during testosterone treatment and 38% during combined testosterone and testolactone treatment (P < .01 for both). Lipoprotein lipase activity (LPLA) increased only during combined testosterone and testolactone treatment (+31%, P < .01), suggesting that estrogen production may counteract the effects of testosterone on LPLA. Testolactone alone had little effect on any lipid, lipoprotein, apoprotein, or lipase concentration


Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1998 Feb;48(2):187-94.

Effects of testosterone replacement on HDL subfractions and apolipoprotein A-I containing lipoproteins.
Tan KC, Shiu SW, Pang RW, Kung AW.

Department of Medicine, University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong.

Abstract
OBJECTIVES: Gonadal steroids are important regulators of lipoprotein metabolism. The aims of this study were to determine the effects of a minimum effective dose of testosterone replacement on high density lipoprotein (HDL) subfractions and apolipoprotein (apo) A-I containing particles (lipoprotein (Lp)A-I) and LpA-I:A-II) in hypogonadal men with primary testicular failure and to investigate the underlying mechanisms of these changes.

MEASUREMENTS: Eleven Chinese hypogonadal men were started on testosterone enanthate 250 mg intramuscularly at 4-weekly intervals. HDL was subfractionated by density gradient ultracentrifugation and LpA-I was analysed by electro-immunodiffusion after 3, 6 and 12 weeks of treatment. Plasma cholesteryl ester transfer protein (CETP) activity and lipolytic enzymes activities in post-heparin plasma were measured to determine the mechanisms underlying testosterone-induced changes in HDL.

RESULTS: The dosage of testosterone enanthate used in the present study resulted in suboptimal trough testosterone levels. No changes were seen in plasma total cholesterol, triglyceride, low density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C,) apo B and apo(a) after 12 weeks. There was a drop in HDL3-C compared to baseline (0.82 +/- 0.17 mmol/l vs. 0.93 +/- 0.13, P < 0.01) whereas a small but significant increase was seen in HDL2-C (0.21 +/- 0.13 mmol/l vs. 0.11 +/- 0.09, P < 0.05). Plasma apo A-I decreased after treatment (1.34 +/- 0.25 g/l vs. 1.50 +/- 0.29, P < 0.01), due to a reduction in LpA-I:A-II particles (0.86 +/- 0.18 g/l vs. 0.99 +/- 0.24, P < 0.01). No changes were observed in the levels of LpA-I particles. No significant changes were seen in plasma CETP and lipoprotein lipase activities after testosterone replacement but there was a transient increase in hepatic lipase (HL) activity at weeks 3 and 6. The decrease in HDL correlated with the increase in HL activity (r = 0.62, P < 0.05).

CONCLUSIONS: Testosterone replacement in the form of parenteral testosterone ester given 4-weekly, although unphysiological, was not associated with unfavourable changes in lipid profiles. The reduction in HDL was mainly in HDL3-C and in LpA-I:A-II particles and not in the more anti-atherogenic HDL2 and LpA-I particles. The changes in HDL subclasses were mainly mediated through the effect of testosterone on hepatic lipase activity.
 
thebigt

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rms80-i agree test cyp hasn't had much effect on my chol levels, but you have to remember most docs are horribly out of date or even totally uneducated when it come to male hormone relacement therapy.

my doc is in his 40's and had to do considerable research when putting me on hrt. most of the research he had was woefully out of date, but fortunately he had an open mind and was willing to look up info i gave him. the literature he originally found recommended injections every 3 weeks, i gave him resources that convinced him weekly injections are much better.
 
StackedCop

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rms80-i agree test cyp hasn't had much effect on my chol levels, but you have to remember most docs are horribly out of date or even totally uneducated when it come to male hormone relacement therapy.

my doc is in his 40's and had to do considerable research when putting me on hrt. most of the research he had was woefully out of date, but fortunately he had an open mind and was willing to look up info i gave him. the literature he originally found recommended injections every 3 weeks, i gave him resources that convinced him weekly injections are much better.
Now if only I could find a doc to get me on hrt at 1000mg a week :D





jk
 
thebigt

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Now if only I could find a doc to get me on hrt at 1000mg a week :D





jk
lol-i will be happy if i can stay at 200mg weekly. 2/28/09 my test was in double digits, extremely low. last blood test it was in the 700's, i will be very surprised if it isn't in the 800's next blood test.
 
StackedCop

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lol-i will be happy if i can stay at 200mg weekly. 2/28/09 my test was in double digits, extremely low. last blood test it was in the 700's, i will be very surprised if it isn't in the 800's next blood test.
If you're test levels get to high will your doc take you off? A few guys at my gym are on "trt" but they also use other steroids and add extra test. One of them says how he stays on is the night before blood work he takes a mega dose of deca and it lowers his test down to 100 or so. I know you're doing it right I'm jw what happens if your levels get to high...
 
thebigt

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If you're test levels get to high will your doc take you off? A few guys at my gym are on "trt" but they also use other steroids and add extra test. One of them says how he stays on is the night before blood work he takes a mega dose of deca and it lowers his test down to 100 or so. I know you're doing it right I'm jw what happens if your levels get to high...
that is a definate concern. i really want to see what my level truely is, but at the same time i have concerns my dose will be lowered. the test cyp has made a tremendous difference for me and i want it to stay the way it is. considering not doing last injection before test.
 
StackedCop

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that is a definate concern. i really want to see what my level truely is, but at the same time i have concerns my dose will be lowered. the test cyp has made a tremendous difference for me and i want it to stay the way it is. considering not doing last injection before test.
Skipping the shot before the test sounds like a good idea. I bet the test works so go with you because you also use support sups. Maybe go sup/test free a week or 2 before the test?? I'd like to hear from someone with experience.
 
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Thread went way off topic. There are studies that try to support claims of test causing and preventing prostate cancer.

Back to topic.
 
DJBeanPole

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1) products that directly primarily increase testosterone
2) products that increase LH
3) products that lower estrogen to signal more testosterone production
4) products that lower SHBG giving you more free testosterone.
Athletix D1/TitaniumXL and the inclusion of DAA from Formula-X gave positive boosts to my numbers via bloods. That at least covers 1,3,4!
 

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