OTC PCT for Epi

[esco0101]

Hey bros, starting a epistane cycle soon at 30mg ed for 6 wks with AI cycle support and Liv 52. Being that I've read that epi is not as harsh on system as other gear, Ive seen lots of forums where people have ran OTC stuff for PCT and did fine. My dilemma is the many different ways people went at it so wanted to see if from what I gathered looked ok to your experiences. My past exp. w/ PCT on a previous 12 wk 350mg test prop cycle was Nolva 30/30/20/20 and Blue Up and did ok but cant get the nolva anymore (it was GP tablets). So this is what I got so far:

Anabolic Innovations Post Cycle support 4 cap/day/4wks
Lean Xtreme 2 cap/day/4wks
Liv 52 2 cap/day/4wks
Multi vitamins/Omegas/creatine

Here's where my dilemma is as a test booster: Anabolic Xtreme PCT vs. Reversitol?
Dont wanna use 6-oxo as I already got AI in PCS, plus not heard as many good things bout it. From what I read on what people said, sound like they got better recovery from AX PCT as it used to be ATD/Ultra Hotter...what is you guys input/experience on these supps and do you think I'm missing anything else for PCT?

 

[mikemd21289]

With EPI I personally believe an OTC PCT is safe and effective, for my EPI cycle I ran TRS stack by PP for week 1-4 while also running DAA bulk powder for week 1-8, but something similar along the lines of your plans should also be sufficient IMO

However with a cycle of SD Mdrol or something along those lines SERMS are a must, but remember everyone is different and multiple variables are always involved..

 

[tnubs]

Its cheaper to get a SERM for pct as opposed to an OTC test booster, which is a huge plus considering something like clomid will also be many times stronger. I used just clomid for my epi pct and strength/weight through the pct were stellar.

 

[lartinos]

If it doesn't convert to estrogen than post cycle shouldn't be too bad even with nothing.

 

[esco0101]

was thinking clomid, never used it but everyone says they get libido issues...my girl already mad im using a "supp" so if Im not givin her the QT time, theres gonna be issues, lol...

 

[esco0101]

With EPI I personally believe an OTC PCT is safe and effective, for my EPI cycle I ran TRS stack by PP for week 1-4 while also running DAA bulk powder for week 1-8, but something similar along the lines of your plans should also be sufficient IMO

However with a cycle of SD Mdrol or something along those lines SERMS are a must, but remember everyone is different and multiple variables are always involved..

Yeah, just saw the TRS cycle n saw good things, thinkin then of doing the AI PCS, just the Alpha SUStain and Lean Extreme for cortisol cuz I think itll be cheaper...

 

[mikemd21289]

Yeah, just saw the TRS cycle n saw good things, thinkin then of doing the AI PCS, just the Alpha SUStain and Lean Extreme for cortisol cuz I think itll be cheaper...

Sounds like a solid epi pct solid to me

 

[blaine2007]

Don't run OTC PCT for Epi.

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

I would run it this way

Weeks 1-4 of pct PCS 2 caps a.m. and 2 caps p.m.

Weeks 3-6 of pct LX as directed

The LIV52 is not really needed if your not running a SERM but it won't hurt to run it either.

 

[esco0101]

I would run it this way

Weeks 1-4 of pct PCS 2 caps a.m. and 2 caps p.m.

Weeks 3-6 of pct LX as directed

The LIV52 is not really needed if your not running a SERM but it won't hurt to run it either.

So adding the SA would be overkill? And When can I add a natty boost? Was thinking around time u say to start the LX...what u think?

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

So adding the SA would be overkill? And When can I add a natty boost? Was thinking around time u say to start the LX...what u think?

The PCS is a natty test booster.

 

[RAHHH]

EPI is very mild OTC pct is prob ok.
acually i almost noticed nothing from EPI
at 45mg ed for 6 wks.
i would rec sustain alpha during cycle and pct with toco-8 , and HCGenerate as pct.

 

[swollen87]

i strongly suggest you use a serm...

ive seen epi give people gyno

and ive seen people recover without pct.. its not worth risking

HOWEVER... i am now doing a natty DAA stack... and i "feel" like this is good **** for pct

you still need a serm tho.... because you might grow tits and lose all your gains... its cheap google it...

 

[rulk22]

Might want to think about using/adding D aspartic acid. Tcf-1 or test force 2 are probably the 2 best out. I like the idea of using sustain alpha 2days on and 5 days off while on cycle as well.

 

[schwellington]

fail- epi is a steroid not a ph or some raggedy t booster


THIS SH!T IS SERIOUS MAN

 

[swollen87]

EPI is very mild OTC pct is prob ok.
acually i almost noticed nothing from EPI
at 45mg ed for 6 wks.
i would rec sustain alpha during cycle and pct with toco-8 , and HCGenerate as pct.

your wrong.. otc is not ok for epi..:aargh:

did you get bloodwork? of course not

do you what a diet is? not if u got no gains

if you took steroids for 6 weeks and didnt notice anything... you did something wrong.... very very wrong

you probably didnt notice anything because you had a fail diet, fail program, and had a fail pct....... dont reccomend anything to anyone anymore

OP USE A SERM

 

[catty66]

PP's TRS with a low dosed serm has worked well for me. You are going to get alot of opinions on this, but the majority of the experienced users on here will recommend a serm. Just make sure you run you're support supps. all the way through pct.

 

[Rosie Chee]

With EPI I personally believe an OTC PCT is safe and effective, for my EPI cycle I ran TRS stack by PP for week 1-4 while also running DAA bulk powder for week 1-8, but something similar along the lines of your plans should also be sufficient IMO

However with a cycle of SD Mdrol or something along those lines SERMS are a must, but remember everyone is different and multiple variables are always involved..

^^^This. You're using Epi - you don't need a SERM for that (and I know plenty of individuals who have run a successful Epi cycle and OTC PCT - there are even logs on this board of it).

The Testosterone Recovery Stack covers PCT: Sustain Alpha Liqua-Vade increases testosterone levels and blocks estrogen (Resveratrol), EndoAmp Max amplifies testosterone and growth hormone, and Toco-8 sensitizes the testes to the effects of LH & FSH. TCF-1 would make a nice addition to the Testosterone Recovery Stack for PCT

Otherwise, for PCT, the bulk of PCT should include each of the following products alongside your basic staples:
* Testosterone Boosters (one product that increase Free Testosterone and Total Testosterone or a stack covering both areas)
* Lutelizing Hormone Releaser
* Cortisol Controller
* Estrogen Antagonists/Aromatase Inhibitor (SERMS are not always a necessity for PCT, and in fact, should only be carefully considered, depending on the compound/s used).

~Rosie~

 

[swollen87]

^^^This. You're using Epi - you don't need a SERM for that (and I know plenty of individuals who have run a successful Epi cycle and OTC PCT - there are even logs on this board of it).

The Testosterone Recovery Stack covers PCT: Sustain Alpha Liqua-Vade increases testosterone levels and blocks estrogen (Resveratrol), EndoAmp Max amplifies testosterone and growth hormone, and Toco-8 sensitizes the testes to the effects of LH & FSH. TCF-1 would make a nice addition to the Testosterone Recovery Stack for PCT

Otherwise, for PCT, the bulk of PCT should include each of the following products alongside your basic staples:
* Testosterone Boosters (one product that increase Free Testosterone and Total Testosterone or a stack covering both areas)
* Lutelizing Hormone Releaser
* Cortisol Controller
* Estrogen Antagonists/Aromatase Inhibitor (SERMS are not always a necessity for PCT, and in fact, should only be carefully considered, depending on the compound/s used).

~Rosie~

I can't believe someone as knowledgeable as you would recommend NOT using a serm.

Have any of the people you have seen run "successful" cycles had bloodwork?

Did they keep their gains?

Did they recover completely?

 

[BigBlackGuy]

I can't believe someone as knowledgeable as you would recommend NOT using a serm.

Have any of the people you have seen run "successful" cycles had bloodwork?

Did they keep their gains?

Did they recover completely?

lol, as if almost and DS/PH users get complete bloodwork done. Even if they use a serm they probably aren't getting bloodwork.

 

[schwellington]

damnit i dont understand why people are saying you dont need a serm for a STEROID

Epi has 4 carbon rings- know what this means? It MEANS ITS AN ANABOLIC STEROID


it is NOT a prohormone, it is fully active, TRS, HCGenerate- these things are good when used in CONJUNCTION with a SERM, see, serms have science PROVING them sto stimulate th HPTA

otc stuff does not- your roll of the dice dude good luck

and i hope(seriously) all of ur man parts function if you go otc cause there is a chance they wont- as epistane is a steroid

im out unsubd

 

[swollen87]

lol, as if almost and DS/PH users get complete bloodwork done. Even if they use a serm they probably aren't getting bloodwork.

big black guy, have you seen any epi bloodwork?

have you seen epi bloodwork when someone went otc pct?

epi will shut you down, just like any steroid...

the problem is that not enough people get bloodwork, and people seem to be operating under the assumption "if he got away with doing it, ill do the same thing and ill be fine"

and that simply isnt the case, some people recover without ANY PCT

and some people dont recover with hcg/serm/testboosters

the only way to know is by getting bloodwork, and at the very least, being as thorough as possible in pct ( IE. USING A SERM )

this forum is notorious for people getting gyno, and their junk not working, because people reccomend otc pct for steroids... its sad

op if you dont use a serm, you prob also wont get bloods, and you prob will have sides, and you prob. will grow tits...and your **** prob wont work

roll the dice:sigh1:

 

[schwellington]

lol, as if almost and DS/PH users get complete bloodwork done. Even if they use a serm they probably aren't getting bloodwork.

sorry- I had to chime in on this, i get blood work done frequently- very frequently:afro:

 

[DreamWeaver]

PP's TRS with a low dosed serm has worked well for me. You are going to get alot of opinions on this, but the majority of the experienced users on here will recommend a serm. Just make sure you run you're support supps. all the way through pct.

That's the ticket ... throw in some Testopor for me... I like Torem for me cuz HPTA recovery is the issue not worried aobut gyno ...

 

[BigBlackGuy]

big black guy, have you seen any epi bloodwork?

I know man, I was just making a point... most people aren't being careful enough as is.

sorry- I had to chime in on this, i get blood work done frequently- very frequently

I agree Schwellington.

 

[chocolatemilk]

From the blood tests of Epi I have seen it puts peoples testosterone levels at the 200 range after a cycle.

 

[bikeswimlive]

Yeah, just saw the TRS cycle n saw good things, thinkin then of doing the AI PCS, just the Alpha SUStain and Lean Extreme for cortisol cuz I think itll be cheaper...

I personally feel that if you can't afford a complete PCT, then you can't afford to do the cycle. This is no time to be cheap.

After seeing bloods from Primordial's TRS, I don't see how you can go wrong with it, plus a low dose serm.

 

[NADDANME]

OP if your dead set against using a SERM and i'm not encouraging you not to. Consider pulsing Epi. There are some people that will tell you that it's a waste but don't listen to them there is a lot of people that love pulsing and it will defintly be easier on your body.

 

[bikeswimlive]

epi will shut you down, just like any steroid...

Bingo. Epi = steroid.

 

[swollen87]

OP if your dead set against using a SERM and i'm not encouraging you not to. Consider pulsing Epi. There are some people that will tell you that it's a waste but don't listen to them there is a lot of people that love pulsing and it will defintly be easier on your body.

again fail

epi pulses produce less gains (although supposedly more keepable)
the bloodwork on a pulse vs a straight run are almost the same

so it would almost make no sense at all to pulse, if your gunna get shut down just as bad

and epi is a methylated steroid, your gunna hurt your liver whether you pulse it or not

and even if youre gunna pulse, you should still use a serm after



you people really need to start reading before you say sh*t

dont post about something being less harsh, or this otc pct will work if you have no evidence backing it

 

[saggy321]

If it doesn't convert to estrogen than post cycle shouldn't be too bad even with nothing.

Whilst I'm not recommending a SERM, a PCT isn't only required for anabolics that convert to estrogen. The DHT or derivatives themselves can be suppressive if taken in higher amounts or for prolonged periods. Also, epi is a strong anti-estrogen, so once the cycle comes to and there is a risk of estrogen rebound as the body ramps up its own production potentially leading to gyno.

My opinion is stick to an OTC pct, but include a test booster, estrogen and cort control and your good to go.

By the way, I've used epi on a 5 week pulse with no PCT and kept all my gains.

 

[NADDANME]

again fail

epi pulses produce less gains (although supposedly more keepable)
the bloodwork on a pulse vs a straight run are almost the same

so it would almost make no sense at all to pulse, if your gunna get shut down just as bad

and epi is a methylated steroid, your gunna hurt your liver whether you pulse it or not

and even if youre gunna pulse, you should still use a serm after

you people really need to start reading before you say sh*t

dont post about something being less harsh, or this otc pct will work if you have no evidence backing it

You didn't read my post very well if you think that i'm suporting him not running a serm. If you have any proof that pulsing shut's you down the same or close to running it straight please enlighten me. What does a SERM have to do with clearing your liver after a cycle. I'll admit that i'm not the most experinced guy on here. So if you have some good article that disprove the effect of pulsing i would seriously like to read it.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/62121-how-pulse-orals.html

Read post #11

 

[jtcastro1]

IMO 6 oxo and ATD worked okay for me, but that was for SD, i think 6 oxo would be good for an epi solo cycle, just my 2 cents!

 

[HondaV65]

People say Epistane doesn't "aromatize" into estrogen.

That may be true - or maybe not, I think the statement is based on the ORIGINAL Epi drug vice the designer steroid that is marketed now. However, let's stipulate that it doesn't convert to estrogen ...

You could still very well have a big "estrogen rebound" after coming off Epi cause by your own systems attempting to rebalance themselves. And this "rebound" could cause problems.

Now - I have read a lot of these threads about guys using Epi and some get gyno and some don't. Some get by with OTC PCT and some can't. How do you reconcile this?

Well, I reconcile it by concluding that some people are more likely to get gyno than others. I guess some people can stack SDrol with twelve other compounds and come through it barely suppressed after 30 weeks on the stuff - while others get gyno by just looking at the box it comes in. This is hyperboly of course but you can catch the drift.

The bottom line, I think - is what works for you?

I don't know about others - but if I don't know where my physiological response to a compound is going to fall on the "bell curve" - I would want to have maximum protection at hand and be prepared for anything. That's why I'd get a SERM on standby at least.

 

[HondaV65]

By the way let me just say that I just finished a short 2-week cycle with Epi as an experiment mostly for my body's tolerance to it. I pulsed it the first week, but ended up going straight on with it the second week.

The "pulse method" ... well there are some "up and downs" with that I found. I didn't find them to be too worrysome but I had to adjust to them. One thing I noticed is that I'd get tingly nips in the evening - but a bit of formestane seemed to kill that off and I'd be good to go until the next evening.

I didn't see this at all when I ran it straight every day. It seems to me that most people "pulse" to minimize shutdown and they also apply other "tricks" to the pulse technique - such as taking half the dosage of Epi right before a morning workout and then the rest of the dosage at some point early in the day so that it clears the system before you go to bed. I did that and maybe there was some "rebounding" going on in the evenings.

Running it straight though - my main goal was just to keep it balanced in my system - so I spread the dosage out during the day without concern. I personally liked this better.

This is not an indictment of the pulse method though - if some people prefer it - I think they should do it. Different people react in different ways - I don't think anyone can tell you what's best for you.

 

[ryansm]

this forum is notorious for people getting gyno, and their junk not working, because people reccomend otc pct for steroids... its sad

Where are you getting this from, perhaps recent advise, but this board is certainly not "notorious" for it.

 

[ryansm]

Here it is, if you use a steroid get a SERM, it's not difficult. If there is some crazy reason why you can't obtain a SERM, then I suggest you not use a steroid. If you still feel like doing it, then your best option is to use something like the TRS. Personally I think the TRS is great, however, my view point is it allows you to use a lower dose of a SERM, and have quicker recovery of the HPTA. That's what it boils down to, use a steroid get a SERM, if you can't then don't use steroids.

 

[bikeswimlive]

use a steroid get a SERM, if you can't then don't use steroids.

 

[Rosie Chee]

I can't believe someone as knowledgeable as you would recommend NOT using a serm.

Have any of the people you have seen run "successful" cycles had bloodwork?

Did they keep their gains?

Did they recover completely?

Everyone immediately jumps to SERMs for PCT - I'm not everyone, and sometimes you have to look at more than the fact that one is using a hormonal, but what compound it is. Like I said, SERMS are not necessary for ALL PCT protocols.

I don't know whether all of them had bloods - I believe that some did (you're going back a while now).

Yes, the people I know kept their gains - and they even made gains through PCT (and still have those gains). They recovered, and have done cycles since (albeit not Epi).

Anyways, this is not supposed to be an argument - you have your opinion and I have mine - the OP will do what they think is best for them with the information they have been given.

I personally feel that if you can't afford a complete PCT, then you can't afford to do the cycle. This is no time to be cheap.

After seeing bloods from Primordial's TRS, I don't see how you can go wrong with it, plus a low dose serm.

If you don't prepare properly for before, during, and after any hormonal cycle, period, you're an idiot.

OP if your dead set against using a SERM and i'm not encouraging you not to. Consider pulsing Epi. There are some people that will tell you that it's a waste but don't listen to them there is a lot of people that love pulsing and it will defintly be easier on your body.

Pulsing is also an option, yes.

~Rosie~

 

[swollen87]

You didn't read my post very well if you think that i'm suporting him not running a serm. If you have any proof that pulsing shut's you down the same or close to running it straight please enlighten me. What does a SERM have to do with clearing your liver after a cycle. I'll admit that i'm not the most experinced guy on here. So if you have some good article that disprove the effect of pulsing i would seriously like to read it.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/62121-how-pulse-orals.html

Read post #11

there is no particular artice i can post herre that shows the negatives about pulsing.. just bloodwork ive seen on other forums.


ive read that article... i understand the concept of pulsing orals and how it sounds good.... what makes me say that it is worthless... is BLOODWORK

go over to phf and check out some bloodwork on an epi pulse vs an epi cycle... im not going to waste anymore time disputing this with people...

if you cant get a serm, ask around someone will help

 

[swollen87]

Where are you getting this from, perhaps recent advise, but this board is certainly not "notorious" for it.

i belong to two forums, on phf and on here

in comparison to the other forums i visit, am seems to have the most liberal opinions of pct...

what i mean by this is, people actually reccomend otc pcts here... most other forums, you will never see that... and you will be negged if you tell someone to run otc pct for epi ...

and i also "seem" to see more complaints about gyno after not using a serm here... just mo


my only reason for being on this forum is to gain knowledge and share knowledge... and i would feel terrible if i was the one this OP listened to about using NO SERM and he ended up with a limp **** and tits for the rest of his life....

 

[ryansm]

Um you have been a member all of one month, a lot of of info is on this board, not just the recent stuff, and I agree with your assessment on a SERM.

Also could you post some of these threads where OTC was recommended and gyno occurred

 

[swollen87]

Um you have been a member all of one month, a lot of of info is on this board, not just the recent stuff, and I agree with your assessment on a SERM

yes, i have been a member for one month, but that doesnt mean i havent been reading for years. i have been researching and reading studies and bloodwork for a long enough time to know what is right and what is wrong.

so do not get on my back like the last guy about seniority.. just because youve been a member for 10 years, doesnt mean you know ****. (no offense to you personally)


i am not just some schmuck that just started working out last month and joined the forum to start preaching to people ... i worked as a personal trainer 06-07 and quit for a better job opportunity. this doesnt mean my days of fitness are over.

i do not claim to know everything there is to know about everything, i merely relay information that i know is true

i do my best to dig out what studies/bloodwork PROVE and relay that to people who may have been misinformed.

i literally have spent days/hours/months on the computer and in school learning what works based on evidence from labwork and or studies.... not BROSCIENCE...

with that being said, imo if anyone is going to use steroids, they should get a serm. with maybe the exception of like furuza

and i wouldnt even do that.... EVER

 

[swollen87]

Also could you post some of these threads where OTC was recommended and gyno occurred[/QUOTE]


i think you may have edited this in...

does your google work?

type in epi gyno

see how many people go on and on about "epis an ai, you need no nolva"

and then 9 months later they have gyno

 

[ryansm]

Did I say anything about about your experience? Don't think I did, you made a statement about the board, I already agree with your assessment, I have also researched this. My point is I have been here long enough to see waves of people and posts come in, and to generalize the board as a whole is simply inaccurate. So just calm down

 

[swollen87]

Did I say anything about about your experience? Don't think I did, you made a statement about the board, I already agree with your assessment, I have also researched this. My point is I have been here long enough to see waves of people and posts come in, and to generalize the board as a whole is simply inaccurate. So just calm down

youre right, i shouldnt generalize the board as a whole.. there are numerous people here that have a respectable amount of knowledge..

i just get so f'n mad when i see a thread like this where the first ten posts recommend an otc pct... :aargh:

no beef w/u tho my friend i just tend to get a bit heated at times...

 

[oufinny]

I have been planning and researching my Epi cycle for 4 months now and slowly acquired the pieces to the puzzle so it is right. You better believe I have a seen handy and I researched a while asking trusted members who to get it from. Here is the kicker, I have a plan and until I start, will be continuing to research and fine tune it so when I start I am confident I have the best chance of success and will come out of pct tit-less and with a working rod in my pants. If you aren't willing to do this, you are f*****g it up for everyone else because your cheap and lazy. It is for these reasons products get banned. Be part of the solution, not the problem. End rant\

 

[chocolatemilk]

come out of pct tit-less

LOL

 

[saggy321]

youre right, i shouldnt generalize the board as a whole.. there are numerous people here that have a respectable amount of knowledge..

i just get so f'n mad when i see a thread like this where the first ten posts recommend an otc pct... :aargh:

no beef w/u tho my friend i just tend to get a bit heated at times...

I also get frustrated when I see people jump, by default, to using SERMs as PCT.

 

[BrockR]

i belong to two forums, on phf and on here

in comparison to the other forums i visit, am seems to have the most liberal opinions of pct...

what i mean by this is, people actually reccomend otc pcts here... most other forums, you will never see that... and you will be negged if you tell someone to run otc pct for epi ...

and i also "seem" to see more complaints about gyno after not using a serm here... just mo


my only reason for being on this forum is to gain knowledge and share knowledge... and i would feel terrible if i was the one this OP listened to about using NO SERM and he ended up with a limp **** and tits for the rest of his life....

Normally I would have stayed out of this conversation altogether, but I felt compelled to say something because it seems like you are jumping to a lot of conclusions and assuming many things, particularly about people on this forum and their preferences.

First of all, I've never done a cycle yet. I've been taking my time just absorbing information like a sponge on pretty much every forum out there for a long time. I recently signed up on AM because I found myself hanging around this site more and more, and now it's like home.

The reason I gravitated toward this place is because it's full of great people that for the most part share a similar ideology. And that ideology is the point I'm trying to make with you...

We don't like to just put any and every chemical in our bodies just because it's the common and popular thing to do. Each individual's body reacts very differently and it's important to learn it rather than copy what the other guy does. And not only that, but in this world we all know how easily something gets accepted as 'mainstream' so quickly and passed from one person to the other without any true validity, eg: "you can't grow muscle without glutamine bro".

Since the topic of this thread is epistane I'll use that as an example. I've seen logs where guys have complained of serious joint issues and even injuries because they were running an AI or SERM along with it and killing their estro levels completely. In a few cases there was such a heavy estro rebound gyno symptoms appeared. Does this mean everybody should avoid AI/SERMs on epi? No, but many people won't need it due to the characteristics of epistane, and there are ways you can reduce or eliminate the need for it during PCT (depending on the person, of course).

The ideal thing is to get bloods done before and after. Confirm your needs, learn your body. Keep a SERM on hand. This is what I will practice when I run my first cycle.

Prescription type AIs and SERMs are not candy, they can and do have detrimental effects. Trying to reduce their use is a good idea.


Really not trying to be a smart ass, I just don't like to see someone pop in and start insinuating that some of the best people on here are idiotic.