[Robboe]

Fair enough. I wonder what it is that makes the fat cells in the neck store the left over fat. Some people can eat extra callories and not store extra fat at all, so I wonder I wonder if these supplement would have similar side effects to the AIDS drugs(obviously less pronounced)


I guess this is one of those situatons where we should be getting Dr. D or some other really smart person to come in and teach us a lesson in biology.

I honestly don't know why it stores in the neck. It looks freaky though, google image search on that string and you'll see what i mean.

[Whacked]

For relatively lean individuals, I would agree. But for those who "need" to lose fat, I think the numerous deletrerious health risks of having excess bodyfat outweight the positives of holding onto it.

I don't think fat cell apoptosis is a very great idea in the grand scheme of things. Fat cells are important stores to the body.

[Robboe]

For relatively lean individuals, I would agree. But for those who "need" to lose fat, I think the numerous deletrerious health risks of having excess bodyfat outweight the positives of holding onto it.

Yes. Alternative drugs are suggested for peoiple in this situation though. Along with 'a balanced diet and exercise'.

[MAxximal]

bump

[rms80]

Hey Guys

I read some studies about "killing fat cells" what did you think?

Resveratrol and Quercetin
Enhanced inhibition of adipogenesis and induction ... [Life Sci. 2008] - PubMed result

Quercetin and Caffeine
Potentiation of beta-adrenoceptor agonist-mediated... [Biochem Pharmacol. 1994] - PubMed result

CLA and l-Arginine
Dietary Supplementation of l-Arginine and Conjugated Linoleic Acid Reduces Retroperitoneal Fat Mass and Increases Lean Body Mass in Rats ? J. Nutr.

CLA has been shown to cause apoptosis in rats but in human??
studies have also shown that CLA blocks the ‘fat sensor’ PPAR-gamma.

Curcumin also inhibits the production of PPAR-gamma, the sensor that alerts fat cells to the presence of fat. If the sensor works less well, fat cells absorb less fat.

Curcumin Inhibits Adipogenesis in 3T3-L1 Adipocytes and Angiogenesis and Obesity in C57/BL Mice ? J. Nutr.

Capsaicin inhibit fat cell growth?
Effects of novel capsinoid treatment on fatness and energy metabolism in humans: possible pharmacogenetic implications ? Am J Clin Nutr

Dihydrocapsiate is similar to capsaicin, which is known for its thermogenic properties
Effect of dihydrocapsiate on resting metabolic rate in humans ? Am J Clin Nutr

This is why I added Quercetin, NAC, and Res-v into Free Test- on of the main things people notice when they take it is not only an increase in lbm, but also a decrease in body fat......

[MAxximal]

This is why I added Quercetin, NAC, and Res-v into Free Test- on of the main things people notice when they take it is not only an increase in lbm, but also a decrease in body fat......

we need an 120 caps version or 180 caps to bump to 6 caps a day



note: did you read my PM?

[thebigt]

i added yohimbine to the bottle of capsacian sold as arthritis relief. the 1st thing i noticed is the burn, then when i exercised i noticed increased sweat where i applied it. my abs are my weak spot so it took some time, but i definately could tell a difference. it is relatively cheap so i use it a couple of times a week. definately worth a shot.


btw-the capsacian works considerably better than the absorbine jr that i had added yohimbine to previously.

[rms80]

we need an 120 caps version or 180 caps to bump to 6 caps a day



note: did you read my PM?

5 caps of Free Test contains an effective dose of all three compounds- by effective dose- we tend to use the doses used in scientific literature, where applicable....

Quercetin is a great compound, but a huge pain in the ass to work with- that's why you don't see it in more products. It has a waxy texture that tends to jam automatic capsule machines, plus it is a strong die that tends to coat and stain just about everything (even the FRP inside our clean room, LOL). The only thing that removes it is Krud Kutter- alcohol and bleach are no match for it- it will stain SS

Tell you a funny story- we have a pneumatic ejection pin system on our automatic capsule machine, and the the system ejects capsules out into an enclosed bin. The bin has a special suction that clears associated dust that goes along with each ejection- unfortunately, it quit working one day when we were making Free Test- so basically the dust from an entire 300K capsule run got deposited all over the encapsulation area. Problem is, you don't really see it until it starts to accumulate- I have never seen a mess like that in my entire life- took us 2 days to clean up after that run.....

Can you re-send the PM

[DAdams91982]

5 caps of Free Test contains an effective dose of all three compounds- by effective dose- we tend to use the doses used in scientific literature, where applicable....

Quercetin is a great compound, but a huge pain in the ass to work with- that's why you don't see it in more products. It has a waxy texture that tends to jam automatic capsule machines, plus it is a strong die that tends to coat and stain just about everything (even the FRP inside our clean room, LOL). The only thing that removes it is Krud Kutter- alcohol and bleach are no match for it- it will stain SS

Tell you a funny story- we have a pneumatic ejection pin system on our automatic capsule machine, and the the system ejects capsules out into an enclosed bin. The bin has a special suction that clears associated dust that goes along with each ejection- unfortunately, it quit working one day when we were making Free Test- so basically the dust from an entire 300K capsule run got deposited all over the encapsulation area. Problem is, you don't really see it until it starts to accumulate- I have never seen a mess like that in my entire life- took us 2 days to clean up after that run.....

Can you re-send the PM

I say this with love:

[rms80]

LOL- it looked liked someone dropped a pollen bomb in there- went right through everyones' lab coats...

[Athletix]

Hmmmm very interesting. I knew the goal has always been to shrink fat cells, but now it seems people are looking to just kill them!

I think there is a phosphotidylcholine + Bile Salt product being researched right now for this by big pharma

What is a word that starts with d and ends in iarrhea? lol

[criticalbench]

I've been looking into PGF2a for transdermal use

I've looked into that as well pgcl in a transdermal form. Never decided to do it though. Its easy to get and very cheap but I have also been debating between small very shallow frequent injections of lipodissolve.

I have now decided though, I am just getting ab/torso lipo when I get my gyno surgery in less than a year hopefully.

[rulk22]

This is why I added Quercetin, NAC, and Res-v into Free Test- on of the main things people notice when they take it is not only an increase in lbm, but also a decrease in body fat......

I use Quercetin to rid my gout and it works just as well as the meds im perscribed. I started to use NAC regularly last year and found out its best to add extremely high doses of Vit. C, other wise NAC will interfere with insulin sensitivity or something like that. As for Resveratrol I wish I could take Sustain Alpha year round...Perhaps Primordial Performance will release a Liquavade Trans-Resvertrol solo.

[MAxximal]

I use Quercetin to rid my gout and it works just as well as the meds im perscribed. I started to use NAC regularly last year and found out its best to add extremely high doses of Vit. C, other wise NAC will interfere with insulin sensitivity or something like that. As for Resveratrol I wish I could take Sustain Alpha year round...Perhaps Primordial Performance will release a Liquavade Trans-Resvertrol solo.

Liquavade Trans-Resvertrol solo.

WHEN IS OUT???

[Torobestia]

For relatively lean individuals, I would agree. But for those who "need" to lose fat, I think the numerous deletrerious health risks of having excess bodyfat outweight the positives of holding onto it.

It's important to note though that as these theoretical (or real) products would be killing fat cells, not just decreasing their volume, they should still be targetted for morbidly obese folks. It takes a lot to actually cause adipose hyperplasia, and a long time to develop it, too, so even if you were still say at 25% bf and looking to drop, if you have only had that for a few years I would be very wary of using such products since you don't have a lot of adipose cells (just really inflated ones).

[msucurt]

Good gosh, i love your avatar.....giggity giggity

Thanks for posting these, Maxximal.

I should have payed attention in school, then maybe I could understand the terminology in these studies.

[Clickster]

Some very interesting reading. Thanks!

[rms80]

I use Quercetin to rid my gout and it works just as well as the meds im perscribed. I started to use NAC regularly last year and found out its best to add extremely high doses of Vit. C, other wise NAC will interfere with insulin sensitivity or something like that. As for Resveratrol I wish I could take Sustain Alpha year round...Perhaps Primordial Performance will release a Liquavade Trans-Resvertrol solo.

Cissus will get rid of gout as well

As far as NAC- the effects seem to be negligible on insulin sensitivity:

J Physiol. 2010 May 1;588(Pt 9):1623-34. Epub 2010 Mar 22.

N-Acetylcysteine infusion does not affect glucose disposal during prolonged moderate-intensity exercise in humans.
Merry TL, Wadley GD, Stathis CG, Garnham AP, Rattigan S, Hargreaves M, McConell GK.

Department of Physiology, The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria, 3010, Australia. [email protected]

Abstract
There is evidence that reactive oxygen species (ROS) signalling is required for normal increases in glucose uptake during contraction of isolated mouse skeletal muscle, and that AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) is involved. The aim of this study was to determine whether ROS signalling is involved in the regulation of glucose disposal and AMPK activation during moderate-intensity exercise in humans. Nine healthy males completed 80 min of cycle ergometry at 62 +/- 1% of peak oxygen consumption ( V(O(2)peak).A 6,6-(2)H-glucose tracer was infused at rest and during exercise, and in a double-blind randomised cross-over design, N-acetylcysteine (NAC) or saline (CON) was co-infused. NAC was infused at 125 mg kg(1) h(1) for 15 min and then at 25 mg kg(1) h(1) for 20 min before and throughout exercise. NAC infusion elevated plasma NAC and cysteine, and muscle NAC and cysteine concentrations during exercise. Although neither NAC infusion nor exercise significantly affected muscle reduced or oxidised glutathione (GSH or GSSG) concentration (P > 0.05), S-glutathionylation (an indicator of oxidative stress) of a protein band of approximately 270 kDa was increased approximately 3-fold with contraction and this increase was prevented by NAC infusion. Despite this, exercised-induced increases in tracer determined glucose disposal, plasma lactate, plasma non-esterified fatty acids (NEFAs), and decreases in plasma insulin were not affected by NAC infusion. In addition, skeletal muscle AMPKalpha and acetyl-CoA carboxylase-beta (ACCbeta) phosphorylation increased during exercise by approximately 3- and approximately 6-fold (P < 0.05), respectively, and this was not affected by NAC infusion. Unlike findings in mouse muscle ex vivo, NAC does not attenuate skeletal muscle glucose disposal or AMPK activation during moderate-intensity exercise in humans.

J Endocrinol Invest. 2009 Apr;32(4):352-6.

N-acetylcysteine is able to reduce the oxidation status and the endothelial activation after a high-glucose content meal in patients with Type 2 diabetes mellitus.
Masha A, Brocato L, Dinatale S, Mascia C, Biasi F, Martina V.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Turin, Corso A.M. Dogliotti 14, 10126 Turin, Italy.

Abstract
Post-prandial hyperglycemia seems to play a pivotal role in the pathogenesis of the cardiovascular complications of diabetes mellitus, as it leads to an oxidative stress which in turn causes a reduced NO bioavailability. These conditions produce an endothelial activation.

AIM OF THE STUDY: The aim of this study was to assure that the administration of N-acetylcysteine (NAC), thiolic antioxidant, is able to decrease the oxidation status and endothelial activation after a high-glucose content meal.

SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Ten patients with Type 2 diabetes mellitus (DMT2) (Group 1) and 10 normal subjects (Group 2) were studied. They assumed a high-glucose content meal without (phase A) or after (phase B) the administration of NAC. Glycemia, insulinemia, intercellular adhesion molecule 1, vascular adhesion molecule 1 (VCAM-1), E-selectin, malonaldehyde (MDA), and 4-hydroxynonenal (HNE) were assessed at -30, 0, +30, +60, +90, +120, and +180 min with respect to the meal consumption.

RESULTS: During the phase A in Group 1, only HNE and MDA levels increased after the meal assumption; all parameters remained unchanged in Group 2. During the phase B, in Group 1, HNE, MDA, VCAM-1, and E-selectin levels after the meal were lower than those in phase A, while no change for all variables were observed in Group 2.

CONCLUSIONS: A high-glucose meal produces an increase in oxidation parameters in patients with DMT2. The administration of NAC reduces the oxidative stress and, by doing so, reduces the endothelial activation. In conclusion, NAC could be efficacious in the slackening of the progression of vascular damage in DMT2.

[criticalbench]

Cissus will get rid of gout as well

As far as NAC- the effects seem to be negligible on insulin sensitivity:

J Physiol. 2010 May 1;588(Pt 9):1623-34. Epub 2010 Mar 22.

N-Acetylcysteine infusion does not affect glucose disposal during prolonged moderate-intensity exercise in humans.
Merry TL, Wadley GD, Stathis CG, Garnham AP, Rattigan S, Hargreaves M, McConell GK.

Department of Physiology, The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria, 3010, Australia. [email protected]

Abstract
There is evidence that reactive oxygen species (ROS) signalling is required for normal increases in glucose uptake during contraction of isolated mouse skeletal muscle, and that AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) is involved. The aim of this study was to determine whether ROS signalling is involved in the regulation of glucose disposal and AMPK activation during moderate-intensity exercise in humans. Nine healthy males completed 80 min of cycle ergometry at 62 +/- 1% of peak oxygen consumption ( V(O(2)peak).A 6,6-(2)H-glucose tracer was infused at rest and during exercise, and in a double-blind randomised cross-over design, N-acetylcysteine (NAC) or saline (CON) was co-infused. NAC was infused at 125 mg kg(1) h(1) for 15 min and then at 25 mg kg(1) h(1) for 20 min before and throughout exercise. NAC infusion elevated plasma NAC and cysteine, and muscle NAC and cysteine concentrations during exercise. Although neither NAC infusion nor exercise significantly affected muscle reduced or oxidised glutathione (GSH or GSSG) concentration (P > 0.05), S-glutathionylation (an indicator of oxidative stress) of a protein band of approximately 270 kDa was increased approximately 3-fold with contraction and this increase was prevented by NAC infusion. Despite this, exercised-induced increases in tracer determined glucose disposal, plasma lactate, plasma non-esterified fatty acids (NEFAs), and decreases in plasma insulin were not affected by NAC infusion. In addition, skeletal muscle AMPKalpha and acetyl-CoA carboxylase-beta (ACCbeta) phosphorylation increased during exercise by approximately 3- and approximately 6-fold (P < 0.05), respectively, and this was not affected by NAC infusion. Unlike findings in mouse muscle ex vivo, NAC does not attenuate skeletal muscle glucose disposal or AMPK activation during moderate-intensity exercise in humans.

J Endocrinol Invest. 2009 Apr;32(4):352-6.

N-acetylcysteine is able to reduce the oxidation status and the endothelial activation after a high-glucose content meal in patients with Type 2 diabetes mellitus.
Masha A, Brocato L, Dinatale S, Mascia C, Biasi F, Martina V.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Turin, Corso A.M. Dogliotti 14, 10126 Turin, Italy.

Abstract
Post-prandial hyperglycemia seems to play a pivotal role in the pathogenesis of the cardiovascular complications of diabetes mellitus, as it leads to an oxidative stress which in turn causes a reduced NO bioavailability. These conditions produce an endothelial activation.

AIM OF THE STUDY: The aim of this study was to assure that the administration of N-acetylcysteine (NAC), thiolic antioxidant, is able to decrease the oxidation status and endothelial activation after a high-glucose content meal.

SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Ten patients with Type 2 diabetes mellitus (DMT2) (Group 1) and 10 normal subjects (Group 2) were studied. They assumed a high-glucose content meal without (phase A) or after (phase B) the administration of NAC. Glycemia, insulinemia, intercellular adhesion molecule 1, vascular adhesion molecule 1 (VCAM-1), E-selectin, malonaldehyde (MDA), and 4-hydroxynonenal (HNE) were assessed at -30, 0, +30, +60, +90, +120, and +180 min with respect to the meal consumption.

RESULTS: During the phase A in Group 1, only HNE and MDA levels increased after the meal assumption; all parameters remained unchanged in Group 2. During the phase B, in Group 1, HNE, MDA, VCAM-1, and E-selectin levels after the meal were lower than those in phase A, while no change for all variables were observed in Group 2.

CONCLUSIONS: A high-glucose meal produces an increase in oxidation parameters in patients with DMT2. The administration of NAC reduces the oxidative stress and, by doing so, reduces the endothelial activation. In conclusion, NAC could be efficacious in the slackening of the progression of vascular damage in DMT2.

THANK YOU for posting that! I use nac everyday, and when I read his post, I was like, wtf i got to look this up! Thanks to both of you guys for the insight and info!

Mike

[rms80]

THANK YOU for posting that! I use nac everyday, and when I read his post, I was like, wtf i got to look this up! Thanks to both of you guys for the insight and info!

Mike

Glad I could help

[Athletix]

Yeah I can vouch for that, we never monitor blood glucose during APAP overdoses when giving mucomyst (NAC) and believe me some amazingly high doses are given.

[rochabp]

"PPAR-gamma" and CLA?

isnt the PPAR-gamma involved or influenced by TTA too?

[MAxximal]

"PPAR-gamma" and CLA?

isnt the PPAR-gamma involved or influenced by TTA too?

TTA is a PPAR antagonist

[Robboe]

"PPAR-gamma" and CLA?

isnt the PPAR-gamma involved or influenced by TTA too?

TTA is a PPAR antagonist

TTA hits all three isoforms to some degree.

[monstermash]

I know it's not a supplement but it does kill fat cells...

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/freezin...ry?****11641994