TriMax and Clen, what PCT?
- 06-15-2004, 11:28 PM
TriMax and Clen, what PCT?
First off, the fat loss tools I have to work with are TriMax, Clenbuterol HCL, and ECA. No I will not be running all 3 simultaneously. My plan was TriMax and Clen for 2 weeks, then PCT.
The TriMax dosage schedule will be 11112222221111
1) What should the Clenbuterol dosage schedule be
2) How long should I run the Clenbuterol
3) Most important question: What suppliments and at what dosages should I use for PCT for the TriMax?
Other facts: I am currently finishing up a cycle of Nordiol 600mg and 1,4Andro 300mg for 6 weeks. I've discovered Nordiol makes me moodier than a pregnant woman so I won't be using it ever again after this. I can handle other side effects but depression is something I've been fighting my whole life; a prohormone which directly causes it is just something I don't want. I'm currently taking a standard ECA stack (25mg, 200mg, 81mg) 3 times a day as well. For PCT I'll be taking Tribulus, Longifolia, 6-OXO and ZMA (ZMA taken 30 minutes before taking 6-OXO to avoid potential conflicts). Even though I don't like the mood I've been in, I have seen strength gains. I've lost weight but it's all been fat and water.
Currently I am 5'6.5", 175 pounds in the morning (some days depending on how much I've gone to the bathroom, I sometimes weigh as much as 185), about 12% bodyfat. I'm trying to lose maybe another 5-10 pounds of fat if I can manage. This is the first time in my life I've gotten this low on bodyfat but I'd like to get rid of as much fat as I can so it's easier to lose fat in the future. If I can get below 6% that would be the ultimate accomplishment this year.
Dietwise, I've been pretty good. Obviously I don't eat any fried foods, and I the only refined sugar I have is from my protein bars (I usually have 1 midmorning and 1 with dinner). As for what I eat, I don't keep a schedule, I just be sure to eat clean throughout the day and I make sure to get a post-workout Whey shake and a bedtime Micellar Casein shake. My bodytype I'd classify as endo/meso, and have an extremely easy time putting on muscle (I even put on muscle during 12 weeks of caloric deficit and no supplimentation). Losing fat however isn't the easiest thing in the world for me and I've pretty much hit a brick wall.
- 06-16-2004, 02:00 AM
I would not use trimax right after your androgen cycle. Your test will be low, you'll be fighting with your body to just retain what you've gained and not gain fat; you don't want to introduce trimax which is purported to be muscle-wasting. I wouldnt run it till at least a couple weeks post PCT. At 12% bodyfat, I wouldn't run trimax w/o an androgen (I wouldnt run it at the end of an androgen cycle either).
Clen dosage will be similar to trimax in that it should be tapered up and down (or just tapered down if you are familiar with it). Start with 20-40mcg per day and increase upwards to 100mcg (if you can handle that much). Personally, I would offset the two (trimax and clen) by one week (if you are doing only 2 weeks of clen) so that the clen provides alot of fat burning when you go from the hyperthyroid (on trimax) to the hypothyroid (off trimax) state. The idea is to prevent fat gain and allow you to bring cals to a more normal level to help jump the thyroid (assuming you would be in a slight caloric deficit on trimax).
You could run the clen for 3 weeks if you wished at the start of the trimax and just run it one week post-trimax, but if it is your first time with clen I'm not sure if you would want to run it for that long (I've read people just can't stop shaking their hands and similar stuff while on clen).
Make sure you supplement with taurine while using clen; it depletes the body's taurine reserve in muscle cells and will cause cramping w/o extra taurine supplementation.
For PCT for trimax, there isnt a really "glorified" thyroid PCT protocol; topical 7oxo, guggul, l-tyrosine, ECA if you dont use clen. The problem with trimax is that when you stop, you should up cals and carbs, because that is what makes the thyroid rebound normally. But by doing so, you will gain fat back because the body will not be able to use the cals; this is where androgens come in, they help partition the extra cals to muscle.
Personally, since I am not going to run any of this w/ androgens (not ready for 'em yet and pretty high BF to start out with) I'm going to stagger the trimax/clen. 1 week trimax, going up, 1 week trimax going down and clen going up, 1 week clen going down with 7keto/guggul/l-tyrosine, then run ECA w/7keto/guggul for 3 more weeks while upping cals/carbs slowly.
At 12% bf, you'll prolly lose more muscle than you'll want by running trimax sans androgens, so keep that in mind when you decide what you want to do.
- 06-16-2004, 09:53 AM
Yes, I wasn't planning on running the TriMax right away because of the innevitable low test levels I'll have post cycle. I had planned a bulking cycle in September for 4 weeks; 1AD and 4AD. Perhaps I'll forgo the TriMax this year since it appears it is necessary to stack it with an androgen to keep from losing muscle. So for this year it will just be clen. I'm thinking I won't use the clen till after PCT though. While many talk about clen having anti-catabolic effects, I've read that those beliefs are based on studies done on animals. The animals the studies were done on have a large number of a specific type of receptors which clen stimulates or something which in turn helped them build more muscle. Humans have virtually none of those particular type of recptors though so from the looks of it clen's muscle building effects don't affect humans. Since every bodybuilder I've read about always seems to stack clen with various steroids, there is no way of knowing from their accounts.
So, though I won't be using TriMax this year, as early as I have the necessary knowledge about it, the better I can plan for the future. Next year will be critical for me if I wish to really start competing.
So, clen should start at 20mcg and then go up with a possible peak of 100mcg and then back down to 20mcg. Yes I'll be doing only 2-3 weeks of it. It's been shown to only burn fat for that long anyway. Plus, the 2 days on 2 days off method doesn't work because while clen's halflife is 2 days, the residual amount of clen still in the system after 2 days is still extremely high so 2 days isn't enough time for all the clen to clear the system.
So dosage schedule for clen should perhaps be something like this:
20 20 40 40 60 80 100 100 80 60 40 40 20 20
If sides become tough to handle at any point, I'll use that as my peak instead of 100mcg.
Post clen I'll go back to ECA for a while then taper off of that going into my bulking cycle in September.
06-16-2004, 12:32 PM
Even though you arent going to use trimax this year, I suggest you pick some up in case custom's stocks ever run out (I dont think this stuff is being produced anymore?). It definately can help you break through the elusive fatloss wall when you are competing, as long as you are on a steady (and medium to heavy amount) of androgens. Combine it with clen and you'll be able to rid yourself of those last few elusive fat lbs that make the different in a competition.
You are right about the anti-catabolic part of clen; it is shown to be very anti-catabolic in mice only, and mice, as we all know, can only go so far to extrapolate human results.
Looks like a pretty good clen dosing schedule. I think it is 18 days when clen stops having its effectiveness, so you could do a 3 weeker if you like. My dosing was going to look like 20mcg, 40mcg, 60mcg, 60mcg, 80mcg, 100mcg, 100mcg, 100mcg, 80mcg, 60mcg, 40mcg, 40mcg, 20mcg, 20mcg only because 40mcg is the recommended place to start usually (I suggest 20mcg because I'm not sure on your tolerance, and I dont know my own tolerance to clen). I figure ramping up from 20 to 60 wont be too big an issue; I'm very tolerant to EC stacks, and I figure that the big boundary for me would be jumping from 60 to 100, hence why I have 2 days at 60mcg. I really doubt I'd be able to keep up 3 days at 100mcg, but if not I'm going to do exactly as you said, just take the tolerable dose.
Post clen definately go back to the ECA. I dont think there should be a problem going straight to ECA from clen, because I have seen peoples' cycles of clen go 2 weeks on clen, 2 weeks ECA, 2 weeks clen, 2 weeks ECA, so there shouldnt be a problem there.
Just make sure to supplement with extra taurine during the clen cycle (3-5g daily) to avoid muscle cramping. Also, watch your heart rate when doing HIIT or any kind of activity where your HR will go up; I've read of quite afew people having resting HRs in the 100s while on a heavy clen cycle. So basically train like you normally would but definately watch your heart rate/blood pressure to ensure that you wont hurt yourself.
06-16-2004, 02:46 PM
hehe, got myself 4 bottles. The label says sell by December of 2006, so I figure that leaves at least 2 years worth of good cutting cycles. My girlfriend might wish to use it as well. She isn't at all concerns with muscle loss, so that respect is much easier for her. However as mentioned in another thread, due to birth control interfering with ability to properly check thyroid values, she'll probably have to suspend usage of birth control from about a week prior to up to probably a month afterwards in order to have her thyroid checked for safety.
Thanks for the advice about the taurine. I'll order some ASAP. I'll probably ramp up taurine to coincide with clen usage, however it will taper off after clen because clen stays in the system for several days and so I imagine probably continues to deplete taurine. Of course I could be wrong but it's better to be safe than sorry.
I'll also get a heartrate monitor. The kind that you strap on and sends a signal to a little reader. For my HIIT training, I'll lower the sprint speeds I use. Typically I do around 10 or 11mph for the sprint intervals and 12mph for the last 1 or 2 intervals on the treadmill. I'll stick to 9mph on the sprints while on clen. I'll also slow down if I ever get above like 170bpm.
Btw, thanks for the help and advice. It's great how informative and helpful the folks on this board are. There are hardly any trolls at all, and the ones that do occasionally pop up seem to get banned pretty quickly.
I'll be sure to try to do my part and share the information that I've learned with others on this board. When I do my clen cycle, I'll be sure to post my results in a log on here. I'll also try to be sure to share the results of any prohormone etc. cycles I do. The more information people have the more effectively they can improve themselves and the closer they can get to achieving their goals and a safe manner.
06-16-2004, 04:35 PM
Ya, basically with the training definately start low and work your way up; being your first clen cycle, you'll figure out how you respond quite quickly (clen is some powerful stuff) and how it affects you and modify from there.
I'm one week into my trimax today, running sans androgens. In four days I'm going to start with clen, three days after clen starting I'll stop trimax and start 7keto. I'll also post my experiences, but I'm not a very technical logger.
Trimax is working wonderfully so far for me; I can definately see areas where the fat is just melting away, and I havent lost any strength at all (though I'm only 1 week in), if anything I've gone up on some lifts as of late. But then again I'm 19, so with my natural hormonal levels through the roof, I'm banking on not losing too much muscle. Hell, screwing with my thyroid at this point in time probably isnt the brightest of ideas, but I'm banking on the resilience of the thyroid to bounce back quick. We'll see how the clen part goes, should be interesting.
No problem for the help; it is the spreading of knowledge that makes us who we are. If you are looking for even more technical and advanced thinking, check out the forums at avantlabs.com. Very advanced stuff on there sometimes, stuff that I really cant make heads or tails of and I'm pretty good with this stuff.
07-13-2004, 12:51 PM
A little update.
I so far did:
I'm on the third day at 100 and I feel fine. My hands are shaky of course, but oddly enough no more noticeably so than at 60mcg.
I'll stay on 100mcg for I think 3 more days, then I'll ramp down. After I go off it, I'll immediately start an ECA stack.
I haven't weighed myself, but I prefer to use the mirror as a judge instead.
07-13-2004, 06:33 PM
I'll update while I'm here too. Ran trimax 2 weeks. Lost about 10lbs with very minor strength losses (definately alot of it was noticable fat), without using any androgens. Ran clen the last 4 days of the trimax for about 2.5 weeks, going from 20mcg to 100mcg then back down. Started ECA immediately afterward.
Clen did hardly anything for me really. I got very bad cramps from it at 100mcg, even when supplementing with 5+ grams of taurine. I'm starting to think the taurine has relatively little to do with the cramping from clen; take potassium for the cramps. On ECA now, thinking of killing that soon, been on stimulants for wayyyy too long.
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