Fenugreek A Waste of $$$$?

[Streetbull]

CONCLUSIONS: Supplementation of fenugreek extract resulted in a decrease in serum DHT levels in comparison to placebo. However, other anabolic and metabolic hormone analyses were not affected by supplementation. We conclude that in conjunction with structured resistance training, supplementation of fenugreek extract does not appear to affect hormonal status in resistance trained males and shows no anabolic potential as has been purported. This study was supported by INDUS BIOTECH

(International Journal of Exercise Science)

Found this but am not allowed to link.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1023&context=ijesab


The Effects of a proprietary fenugreek extract on Strength & Body Composition

Eric Constancio, Colin Wilborn, Lem Taylor, Cliffa Foster, Brandon Bushey, Chris
Poole, Earnest Pena, Tyler Jones, Richard Kreider

University of Mary Hardin-Baylor, Texas A&M University, Baylor University

Int J Exerc Sci 2(1): S21, 2009. Fenugreek extract has been marketed in dozens of dietary
products as having performance enhancing potential for resistance trained athletes.
PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to investigate the potential performance
enhancing effects of a proprietary fenugreek extract in conjunction with a controlled
resistance training program. METHODS: Thirty resistance trained male subjects were
matched according to fat free mass and randomly assigned to ingest in a double-blind
manner capsules containing 500mg of a placebo or fenugreek (Trigonella Foenun
greacum) once per day for 8-weeks (Active: N = 17, 21 ± 2.8 yrs, 178 ± 5.8 cm, 85 ± 9.6 kg,
18.8 ± 4.8 BF%; Placebo: N = 13, 21 ± 3 yrs, 180 ± 6.4 cm, 84 ± 15 kg, 18.3 ± 6.8 BF%).
Subjects were instructed to participate in a periodized 4-day per week resistance-
training program split into two upper and two lower extremity workouts per week for a
total of 8-weeks. Body composition was analyzed using hydrodensiometry and strength
tests involved performing a one repetition max (1RM) on the isotonic bench press and
leg press. Statistical analyses utilized a two-way ANOVA with repeated measures for
all criterion variables (p < 0.05). RESULTS: A significant (p < 0.05) group x time
interaction for body composition was observed indicating the Active (-1.8 ± 0.5 BF%)
group decreased body fat percentage in comparison to Placebo (-0.05 ± 0.3 BF%) over
the 8-week investigation period. In addition, there was a significant (p < 0.05) main
effect for time over the eight week period in lean muscle mass (Active: 2.4 ± 0.1 kg;
Placebo: 1.0 ± 0.1 kg). No significant effects for group or time were observed for upper
or lower body strength (p > 0.05). CONCLUSION: In addition to a controlled
resistance training program fenugreek had a significant impact on body composition in
comparison to placebo. This study was funded by Indus Biotech.

TEXAS AMERICAN COLLEGE OF SPORTS MEDICINE 2009 CONFERENCE
International Journal of Exercise Science S21 http://www.intjexersci.com

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

it may not raise testosterone but it does have anabolic potential.

 

[TheDeadlifter]

http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1023&context=ijesab

...This study was funded by Indus Biotech.

TEXAS AMERICAN COLLEGE OF SPORTS MEDICINE 2009 CONFERENCE
International Journal of Exercise Science S21 http://www.intjexersci.com

I am by no means discounting the study, however Indus Biotech may have some financial stake in the 'success' or 'failure' of fenugreek since they patent and produce drugs and supplements. Be ever mindful that bias is everywhere...

Thank you for posting the study, gentlemen.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

I am by no means discounting the study, however Indus Biotech may have some financial stake in the 'success' of fenugreek since they patent and produce drugs and supplements. Be ever mindful that bias is everywhere...

I only used that specific article b/c the first article discounting fenugreeks hormonal properties was supported by indus tech as well. Also it was published int he same scientific magazine

 

[TheDeadlifter]

I only used that specific article b/c the first article discounting fenugreeks hormonal properties was supported by indus tech as well. Also it was published int he same scientific magazine

I understand. I was editing my post as you were responding. Regardless, it's interesting stuff...

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

I understand. I was editing my post as you were responding. Regardless, it's interesting stuff...

no prob, but i think its highly interesting how there are so many conflicting studies and how there are so many preported benefits of fenugreek. It obviously works in supplements but i have yet to find a definitive MOA.

Needless to say it is not a hormonal manipulator, that has been verified by several studies. But other studies have suggested it plays a role in decreasing DHT, replenishing muscle glycogen, and has strong antioxidant properties. These add on to the physiological effects of increased strength and body composition.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnsv/52/4/52_287/_article

Effects of Fenugreek Seeds (Trigonella foenum greaecum) Extract on Endurance Capacity in Mice
Mayumi IKEUCHI1), Kohji YAMAGUCHI1), Tomoyuki KOYAMA1), Yoshikatsu SONO2) and Kazunaga YAZAWA1)
1) Laboratory of Nutraceuticals and Functional Foods Science, Graduate School of Marine Science and Technology, Tokyo University of Marine Science and Technology
2) Technical Sourcing International, Inc.
(Received March 1, 2006)
Summary The present study was designed to determine the effect of fenugreek seed extract (FG) on endurance capacity in male mice aged 4 wk. Mice were given orally either vehicle or FG (150, 300 mg/kg body weight) by stomach intubation for 4 wk. The 300 mg/kg FG group showed a significant increase in swimming time to exhaustion as compared to the control group. In the FG groups, blood lactate concentration was significantly lower than in the control group. In the control group, plasma non-esterified fatty acid (NEFA) and plasma glucose were decreased by swimming exercise. But in the FG group, NEFA and plasma glucose were significantly increased by swimming. FG treatment also significantly decreased fat accumulation. These results suggest that improvement in swimming endurance by the administration of FG is caused by the increase in utilization of fatty acids as an energy source


Another interesting one i thought i would share

 

[zombiemuscle]

Ive used the fenugreek extract Testofen in Phyto-Testosterone and reaped many benefits. Increased endurance enabled me to workout longer and perform more reps. Strength shot up, allowing me to crank up intensity in the gym. It's the real deal.

 

[slimcharles]

Ive used the fenugreek extract Testofen in Phyto-Testosterone and reaped many benefits. Increased endurance enabled me to workout longer and perform more reps. Strength shot up, allowing me to crank up intensity in the gym. It's the real deal.

Placebo, same **** was said about CEE.

 

[zombiemuscle]

Placebo, same **** was said about CEE.

Check out this study proving fenugreek to contain steroidal saponins which trigger growth hormone release.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18816528

 

[steam]

i know what the studies say but i took 2 bottles of NOW fenugreek at full dosage and felt next to nothing..

maybe testofen works better...but at this point i'm feelin' kinda iffy

 

[sanchezgreg18]

there is a huge difference between full spectrum fenugreek and extracts such as testofen, grecunin, 4-oh-isoleucine (not related to testosterone but a fenugreek extract nonetheless )

 

[zombiemuscle]

there is a huge difference between full spectrum fenugreek and extracts such as testofen, grecunin, 4-oh-isoleucine (not related to testosterone but a fenugreek extract nonetheless )

I agree. As with any herbal supp, you'll need to check the strength or even go for a patented extract.

 

[MAxximal]

Check out this study proving fenugreek to contain steroidal saponins which trigger growth hormone release.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18816528

what type of the extract has this effect?

 

[JN230]

In a study with castrated animals this ingredient supported muscle and male sex organ growth just as much as testosterone normally would, essentially showing that it can mimic the effects of testosterone. (1) Other research with male athletes (ages 18-35) showed that 600mg/day of Fenuside extract for 8 weeks dramatically reduced fat tissue while increasing lean muscle. These effects were accomplished without any detrimental side effects typically related to the use of anabolic steroids, such as gynecomastia, high blood pressure, or liver damage. (2)

 

[zombiemuscle]

what type of the extract has this effect?

The study was done to research the different saponins in fenugreek, it wasn't about a specific extract. I can tell you that Testofen contains the most steroidal saponins as a fenugreek extract. Read the study in the previous post describing fenusides (Testofen is extracted for 50% fenusides).

 

[celc5]

I've seen way better results with testofen, rather than fenugreek both in terms of bedroom function and gym performance. So I do agree with extract effect this time, and I typically yawn at extract quality gibberish.

Something to keep in mind, it's been used in the past a laxative. And when you actually take ENOUGH testofen to see results, it messed with my bowels really badly and wasn't worth the sides. I believe 2g twice per day was my dosing.

 

[Jimbo15]

I've always noticed an increase in appetite and a major increase in libido when on Phyto-Test. Thats no placebo.

 

[Super Saiyan]

Hmm this interests me....I found a bottle of fenugreek seed on my shelf that I bought awhile back cause I read to take it as part of a pct. Its (Trigonella foenum-graceum)(seed) 610mg per capsule, is that decent?

 

[zombiemuscle]

Hmm this interests me....I found a bottle of fenugreek seed on my shelf that I bought awhile back cause I read to take it as part of a pct. Its (Trigonella foenum-graceum)(seed) 610mg per capsule, is that decent?

It's healthy but you would have to take an obscene amount of caps for it to be on par with testofen.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

subbed.

 

[zombiemuscle]

phyto-testosterone

New batch arrives on the 14th.

 

[RAHHH]

I havent used it yet but I know a bunch of guys that used PP's Phyto-test wich has fenugreek extract Testofen in it and they like it. Increased endurance, workout longer and Strength shot up.
I was told so its doing something positive.

 

[islandmagic]

PP phytotest is working for me... If you can go to the gym do arms for 50min then play basketball out side full court for 3 hours none stop because I was kicking ass and did not lose a game then yes this shi$ works for me... Enough

 

[islandmagic]

I am on my iPhone I forgot say I was BB CURLING 135 3 sets of 8 reps

 

[suresha]

testopro and phyto test is definitely not a waste $$$$$$$$, Streetbull buy either or to answer your own question, and you'll definitely see for yourself first-hand

 

[HATEFULone]

I've had good luck with fenugreek extracts, increased libido, recovery, and strength all improved. Only way to figure out is to try and see what you get out of it. I plan on trying phyto test myself, might use some 1-T with it, loved my dermacrine and 1-T stack this past summer.

 

[narraboth]

Indus Biotech is a company set for searching new drug; this kind of company just put money into researches on various kinds of herbs and compounds. If they get something exciting luckily, they patent it; if not (which would be most of cases), they let the group publish it.

I don't really think they will make up a negative result, I can't see big enough possible benefit for doing that. I think the case here is simple: they put money in University to study many stuffs, and fenugreek extract seems have no potential, so they stop wasting any money on it and let them to publish it.

I am sure people feel something on testofan for a reason. Chinese medicine use fenugreek to increase libido too. But we all know increasing libido/apetite/recovery does not mean increasing in testosterone.

And both testofan products (testoPro and phyto blah) are not cheap, if you are just looking for libido boost, there are cheaper choices.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

Fenugreek is known for its nutrient partitioning effects. Also known to induce lactation. For this reason I stayed away from fenugreek. Not sure if the extracts have similar effects. I'm taking testapro now. I like it but I like divanil.

 

[Thunder1]

Both studies were done by the same company. wierd that they counterdict each other.

 

[marco wolf]

Both studies were done by the same company. wierd that they counterdict each other.

There are many different extracts of fenugreek. The study in the OP only says, "fenugreek extract" without specifying which one. They're probably different extracts.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Both studies were done by the same company. wierd that they counterdict each other.

I dont believe they contradict each other. One study states the extract was non hormonal while another states it is anabolic. A supplement can be anabolic without being hormonal. The first study just rules out its proported testboosting abilities, but the second verifies its ability help you gain strength and lose fat.

Shooting down one claim but re-affirming another.

 

[zombiemuscle]

Fenugreek is known for its nutrient partitioning effects. Also known to induce lactation. For this reason I stayed away from fenugreek. Not sure if the extracts have similar effects. I'm taking testapro now. I like it but I like divanil.

Testopro contains fenugreek... Are you lactating?

 

[MAxximal]

Testopro contains fenugreek... Are you lactating?

:boobies: :wtf1:

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

Just getting started on it. I'll let you know if I do.

 

[celc5]

Testopro contains fenugreek... Are you lactating?

I did quite a bit of research on testofen 2 years ago. I found plenty of paranoid warnings but not one report of male lactation caused by fenugreek or testofen.

Using common sense logic, I suspect that testofen has the potential to irritate nipple sensitivity if you have a history (just like other herbals including trib, yohimbe, hgw... those of you who are susceptible like me, know what I'm talking about). But I can't imagine testofen or fenugreek being the ultimate CAUSE of such symptoms.

 

[fayd]

At 3.50 it certainly isn't a waste for all purposes. That's one drink at a bar for 50 servings. I've only ever supplemented for a week or so at a time, but within days get drastically increased load-sizes. That's the only side in that time frame. I happen to enjoy it. Any minor changes to my DHT over that window are prob counteracted by my creatine or help clear my skin. Ppl pay way too much attention to minor fluctuations (both pos and neg) in serum androgens on these forums.

 

[Outstanding]

Fenugreek is known for its nutrient partitioning effects. Also known to induce lactation. For this reason I stayed away from fenugreek. Not sure if the extracts have similar effects. I'm taking testapro now. I like it but I like divanil.

This would be the value of most interest in my opinion, as I believe the possible insulin modulation/glucose disposal and uptake enhancement would be far more beneficial to body recomposition when compared to the negligible effect some certain specialized extracts might have upon measurements of testosterone. Perplexing as it is, there have been many studies conducted over the years that are able to demonstrate a marked increase in testosterone, but without the expected accompanying increase in lean body mass; Gaspari's Novedex-XT would serve as a prime example. There are many differing and varying opinions and pathways of activity in vivo that are related to several measurements of testosterone, including bound and free, or circulating total.

I am sincerely open to dissent and further discussion on this topic, I am merely stating that the nutrient repartitioning effects might hold more promise and potential where Fenugreek is concerned, rather than an intrinsic ability to elevate endogenous sex hormone levels to an appropriate supra-physiologic level to become the catalyst for hypertrophy.

 

[HATEFULone]

This would be the value of most interest in my opinion, as I believe the possible insulin modulation/glucose disposal and uptake enhancement would be far more beneficial to body recomposition when compared to the negligible effect some certain specialized extracts might have upon measurements of testosterone. Perplexing as it is, there have been many studies conducted over the years that are able to demonstrate a marked increase in testosterone, but without the expected accompanying increase in lean body mass; Gaspari's Novedex-XT would serve as a prime example. There are many differing and varying opinions and pathways of activity in vivo that are related to several measurements of testosterone, including bound and free, or circulating total.

I am sincerely open to dissent and further discussion on this topic, I am merely stating that the nutrient repartitioning effects might hold more promise and potential where Fenugreek is concerned, rather than an intrinsic ability to elevate endogenous sex hormone levels to an appropriate supra-physiologic level to become the catalyst for hypertrophy.

Interesting link about insulin sensitivity and testosterone, so fenugreek may indirectly effect T production through its effects on insulin sensitivity.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

I've not seen any studies of males lactating on fenugreek either but when women take it to help them lactate it makes me wonder if it will have a similar response in men or produce some testosterone lowering hormones.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

induces lactation in women...who were pregnant i believe or had just delivered. The chemistry between a man man and pregnant woman is very different....i dont think any man will lactate due to fenugreek.

 

[narraboth]

I am so gonna to recommend these websites for you guys

http://www.zimbio.com/Breast+Enlargement,+Breast+Augmentation/articles/1586/3+Top+Male+Breast+Enlarging+Herbs

http://www.male-breast-enlargement.org/

 

[TheDarkHalf]

Great info guys, i bought a bottle of now fenugreek ages ago and wondering if it was worth taking or not.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

1. Fenugreek

Fenugreek are a common spice that has been used as a healing herb for centuries. It is also a powerful phytoestrogen and one of nature's most potent prolactin stimulants.

Arn't phytoestrogens harmful to men also? Prolactin decreases wood right?

And women use it after they have a baby. No need to lactate when no baby has been born yet.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

1. Fenugreek

Fenugreek are a common spice that has been used as a healing herb for centuries. It is also a powerful phytoestrogen and one of nature's most potent prolactin stimulants.

Arn't phytoestrogens harmful to men also? Prolactin decreases wood right?

And women use it after they have a baby. No need to lactate when no baby has been born yet.

never read anything about decrease in libido while someone took fenugreek. I have read the complete opposite that it increases libido. Also remember the extract of fenugreek makes a huge difference in what an individual takes in.

 

[Jimbo15]

never read anything about decrease in libido while someone took fenugreek. I have read the complete opposite that it increases libido. Also remember the extract of fenugreek makes a huge difference in what an individual takes in.

I get a major increase in libido off of Phyto-Test.

 

[narraboth]

1. Fenugreek

Fenugreek are a common spice that has been used as a healing herb for centuries. It is also a powerful phytoestrogen and one of nature's most potent prolactin stimulants.

Arn't phytoestrogens harmful to men also? Prolactin decreases wood right?

And women use it after they have a baby. No need to lactate when no baby has been born yet.

Phytoestrogen can be good. Many phytoestrogens have only less than 10% affinity with estrogen receptors compare to estrodiol; they can mimik estrogen in a weaker way and/or competite with estrodiol thus decrease estrogen syndrome.

Anyway, as I said in another thread, chinese and japanese men eat soybean products all the time, never heard them got higher gyno rate.
(But I need to mention that Chinese men don't take high dose of soya isoflavon capsules... )

Prolactin's problem is a bit complicate; prolactin links to men's libido, but men with higher prolactin can still have normal libido...
I am not surprised that fenugreek will boost libido; Chinese and Indian medicine described that hundreds yrs ago. But I think libido can't link to testo level. High libido also can't link to low gyno risk, they are different things.
I think fenugreek should be safe to use, but there is a concern for those who already have gyno signs and about really high dosage fenugreek extract.

 

[Jimbo15]

Phytoestrogen can be good. Many phytoestrogens have only less than 10% affinity with estrogen receptors compare to estrodiol; they can mimik estrogen in a weaker way and/or competite with estrodiol thus decrease estrogen syndrome.

Anyway, as I said in another thread, chinese and japanese men eat soybean products all the time, never heard them got higher gyno rate.
(But I need to mention that Chinese men don't take high dose of soya isoflavon capsules... )

Prolactin's problem is a bit complicate; prolactin links to men's libido, but men with higher prolactin can still have normal libido...
I am not surprised that fenugreek will boost libido; Chinese and Indian medicine described that hundreds yrs ago. But I think libido can't link to testo level. High libido also can't link to low gyno risk, they are different things.
I think fenugreek should be safe to use, but there is a concern for those who already have gyno signs and about really high dosage fenugreek extract.

I agree.

 

[marco wolf]

Anyway, as I said in another thread, chinese and japanese men eat soybean products all the time, never heard them got higher gyno rate.
(But I need to mention that Chinese men don't take high dose of soya isoflavon capsules... )

But aren't most of those soy products also fermented?

In the US, unfermented soybean oil is used in alot of products, which I've read can be a problem. Any thougjhts on this, narraboth.