New DHEA article

cgoode

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I just read a new article at work cuz i was bored about DHEA levels...it was in flex mag but anyway the article claimed that DHEA levels can start to decline at age 20 and recomended taking DHEA 50-100 mgs a day

but....

I was always under the impression the DHEA easily converted into Estrogen and I feel like there are always 1 study for positive muscle growth, 1 for no effects....

so would it actually be beneficial to do low dose DHEA with an antiaromitase like novadex

looking for muscle growth mainly
 

zb126

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I just read a new article at work cuz i was bored about DHEA levels...it was in flex mag but anyway the article claimed that DHEA levels can start to decline at age 20 and recomended taking DHEA 50-100 mgs a day

but....

I was always under the impression the DHEA easily converted into Estrogen and I feel like there are always 1 study for positive muscle growth, 1 for no effects....

so would it actually be beneficial to do low dose DHEA with an antiaromitase like novadex

looking for muscle growth mainly
pairing DHEA with an aromatase inhibitor is a smart idea, IMO, and is similar to the strategy that LG uses in Methyl 1-D. There is an awesome thread that Eric put together over here that explains all the extra benefits Methyl 1 D has over plain DHEA, etc.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/lg-sciences/83475-what-m1d-isnt.html
 
cgoode

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yeah id like to run it cheap tho....dhea is dirt cheap already plus i get 30% off it too no offense to any LG fans or reps
 

zb126

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yeah id like to run it cheap tho....dhea is dirt cheap already plus i get 30% off it too no offense to any LG fans or reps
Yeah, I understand-- if you are going to match it then its a better deal to buy it, if you are gonna experiment then you know what to do it seems :D
 
kingdong

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I just read a new article at work cuz i was bored about DHEA levels...it was in flex mag but anyway the article claimed that DHEA levels can start to decline at age 20 and recomended taking DHEA 50-100 mgs a day

but....

I was always under the impression the DHEA easily converted into Estrogen and I feel like there are always 1 study for positive muscle growth, 1 for no effects....

so would it actually be beneficial to do low dose DHEA with an antiaromitase like novadex

looking for muscle growth mainly
For health? I need more research. Also, Id be afraid of DHEA shtdown, but I don't even know if that's possible.
 
3clipseGT

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For health? I need more research. Also, Id be afraid of DHEA shtdown, but I don't even know if that's possible.
I wouldnt worry about DHEA shutdown as long as your not going crazy with it, people who run M1D at 8 caps a day and MMV3 along with it still report hardly no shutdown, is it there? Of course, but i think if you run DHEA 100mgs a day or less ull be fine, thats just my opinion though from what ive experienced and seen.
 

zb126

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I wouldnt worry about DHEA shutdown as long as your not going crazy with it, people who run M1D at 8 caps a day and MMV3 along with it still report hardly no shutdown, is it there? Of course, but i think if you run DHEA 100mgs a day or less ull be fine, thats just my opinion though from what ive experienced and seen.
I'd agree that it seems that most people have little to no shut down from DHEA and M1D in particular. I know I had none with M1D....just some damn good gains! I had tried some regular DHEA without the same success but it could have been a poor quality product anyway. Bottom line, pay attention to your body, but shutdown seems to be much less likely than with synthetic compounds!
 
zombiemuscle

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For health? I need more research. Also, Id be afraid of DHEA shtdown, but I don't even know if that's possible.
I worried, but now that I'm using it I'm feeling increased testosterone. I feel that it's stimulating production rather than shutting me down. Balls are getting bigger and having erections all night. I would see the opposite if I was getting shutdown. I'm using 100mg twice a day for about 5 days, I'm on day 4.
 
edvanp

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For the past 3 weeks I've been using DHEA at doses of 50-100 mg per day along with a low dose of 6-bromo (25mg). I immediately felt better! Mental fog is gone, sleep is greatly improved, strength is coming around (I"ve been stagnant), skin is better and mood is a lot better. Now I'm older (45) and I know DHEA levels decline with age. I'm out of 6-bromo so now I'm stacking the DHEA with Formadrol Extreme (just 2 caps per day right now). I'm trying to find that sweet spot for me, but it appears 100mg per day along with a low dose of 6-bromo or Formadrol Extreme is the ticket, atleast for me!
 
cgoode

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i read somewhere that anti aromatases might stop dhea from converting into test and that a serm would be better....any thoughts
 
BBB

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I personally like topical Dermacrine by PP. You not only get better DHEA adsorbtion but also a higher conversion rate to test. Dermacrine also has a natural AI’s to limit conversion to E. My second choice is Diesel Test Pro. I typically use low dose DTP between Dermicine cycles.
 
triton185

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I have taken 100mgs of dhea for a year with no time off. I like it and think it improves my mood.....as far as shutdown....don't know, because I take it all the time. I have no idea though if it really works but i FEEL like it does..
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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I would think a serm would allow for more estrogen conversion and less overall test. AI would be the way to go.
 
thebigt

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i am thinking of adding dhea to the nutrient partitioner i am using [slinshot], i am intrigued by it's possible ability to increase sugar metabolism.
 
rulk22

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Dermacrine Lv looks like the best dhea product out right now. It contains ingrediants to blunt estrogen and the absorption factor is key.
 
CopyCat

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Dermacrine Lv looks like the best dhea product out right now. It contains ingrediants to blunt estrogen and the absorption factor is key.
I'd have to concur with this as well.

I mean, the liqui-vade method is pretty killer providing better absorption and its got Resveratrol along 7,8-Benzoflavone which will prevent any estrogenic side effects
 
cgoode

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I appreciate all the feedback, not trying to disagree with anyone or any particular companies product, but I can get 60 caps of dhea (25 mg) for under 5 bucks cuz of my discount ( 30%) so I am looking to pair it with something that is also cheap....I have never taken anything to mess with hormones and am trying to keep it super mild..... i see 6-bromo is dirt cheap here at NP so i was thinking of running Dhea 50 mgs a day (25 mg in morning, 25 in evening) with 6-bromo ....with all due respect id like to hear opinions on a homemade stack like this instead of things like m1d..... sorry no disrespect
 
cgoode

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6bromo isn't natural...
I know I just meant I dont really want to purchase something like m1d that that has an AI with version of DHEA
 
JN230

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i found that i hardened up a little on dermacrine, lost a %bf or so, and had a crazy apetite on it, id highly suggest it, if worried abouit estro oyu can run it along side sustain alpha, or something like reversitol or stoked....
 

Imeniaan

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too bad there are so few reviews out there on dermacrine liqui vade
 
triton185

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WTF......are we talking about DHEA?! It's cheap and at Walmart! I'm not paying real money for that stuff....I use it because it is cheap and I "think" it makes me feel better.....this thread is beginning to sound like a advertisement.
 
FilipeBR

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WTF guys, you don't need ai for dhea.
C'mon...make up your mind guys...need AI? Don't need AI?

DHEA brings benefits, doesn't bring any benefit? Gets converted to estro, doesn't get converted......


=P
 

Imeniaan

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i found out that you can naturally raise your dhea levels by 50 % to 300 % by rubbing transdermal magnesium chloride onto your body. this has been clinically proven. i am so excited, i am going to try this next week. you should see improvement in your dheas levels within 4/6 weeks.
 
thebigt

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i stocked up on dermacrine/formestane lv, when it was on sale. this looks like a cover all the bases stack.
 
cgoode

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WTF......are we talking about DHEA?! It's cheap and at Walmart! I'm not paying real money for that stuff....I use it because it is cheap and I "think" it makes me feel better.....this thread is beginning to sound like a advertisement.
Agreed...this is not what I wanted to happen to this article....Please if anyone has information on DHEA itself or opinions please express....the whole point was to make a super cheap stack if it would increase test levels at all......I started this b/c I'm not sure if DHEA would benefit from something like a cheap AI or serm....

I know many people like the 1-dhea products but this is not the point of my question.....sorry im not trying to be a ****head but im looking at this from a cheap stack with potential benefits...no offense to other companies or products
 
djremix

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Can you explain the difference to me?
check primordialperformance.com for their write up on dermacrine
you will find it there.

just like there is test and 1-test, there are differances which i really dont recall right now

cool?
 
edvanp

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Agreed...this is not what I wanted to happen to this article....Please if anyone has information on DHEA itself or opinions please express....the whole point was to make a super cheap stack if it would increase test levels at all......I started this b/c I'm not sure if DHEA would benefit from something like a cheap AI or serm....

I know many people like the 1-dhea products but this is not the point of my question.....sorry im not trying to be a ****head but im looking at this from a cheap stack with potential benefits...no offense to other companies or products
-How old are you? I've been taking DHEA for the past month and feel great. I'm 45 though and from everything I've read, DHEA can be a good supplement for those 40 and over. It's working for me that I can say. If you are in your 20s, maybe maybe not. With the planet selling 6-bromo again, that could be a cheap stack to try out.
 
kingdong

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I know many people like the 1-dhea products but this is not the point of my question.....sorry im not trying to be a ****head but im looking at this from a cheap stack with potential benefits...no offense to other companies or products
You don't have to worry about pissing us off. You wanna know about a specific supplement or nutrient, we will understand that. After all, this is a site for people who love bulk powders.
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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dhea will convert to estrogen and andro then to test and a few other things. the acutal test conversion is very low. I dont feel it when it take it. its best for over 35yr olds. in men it converts mainly to estrogen which is way a light AI is recommended. The AI will help your test levels alone. Also only take it in the morning. That was recommended by DR D and I forget the reasoning behind it.
 
thebigt

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Agreed...this is not what I wanted to happen to this article....Please if anyone has information on DHEA itself or opinions please express....the whole point was to make a super cheap stack if it would increase test levels at all......I started this b/c I'm not sure if DHEA would benefit from something like a cheap AI or serm....

I know many people like the 1-dhea products but this is not the point of my question.....sorry im not trying to be a ****head but im looking at this from a cheap stack with potential benefits...no offense to other companies or products
i went to the search block here on the forum and typed in [dhea and atd] several very interesting threads came up, read through those threads and see if your answers are there.
 
ohiostate2827

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just take it if you get shutdown...you can bring yourself back
 
BBB

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Let's talk DHEA...

Here is an interesting study on transdermal DHEA. From what I can tell, the dose used is something like 142 mg/day!

Physiological changes in dehydroepiandrosterone are not reflected by serum levels of active androgens and estrogens but of their metabolites: intracrinology.

Labrie F, Belanger A, Cusan L, Candas B.

Medical Research Council Group in Molecular Endocrinology, Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite Laval Research Center, Le Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Quebec, Canada.

This study analyzes in detail the serum concentration of the active androgens and estrogens, as well as a series of free and conjugated forms of their precursors and metabolites, after daily application for 2 weeks of 10 mL 20% dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) solution on the skin to avoid first passage through the liver. In men, DHEA administration caused 175%, 90%, 200% and 120% increases in the circulating levels of DHEA and its sulfate (DHEA-S), DHEA-fatty acid esters, and androst-5-ene-3 beta,17 beta-diol, respectively, with a return to basal values 7 days after cessation of the 14-day treatment. Serum androstenedione increased by approximately 80%, whereas serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) remained unchanged. In parallel with the changes in serum DHEA, the concentrations of the conjugated metabolites of DHT, namely androsterone glucuronide, androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol-G, and androstane-3 beta,17 beta-diol-G increased by about 75%, 50%, and 75%, respectively, whereas androsterone-sulfate increased 115%. No consistent change was observed in serum estrone (E1) or estradiol (E2) in men receiving DHEA, whereas serum E1-sulfate and E2-sulfate were slightly and inconsistently increased by about 20%, and serum cortisol and aldosterone concentrations were unaffected by DHEA administration. Almost superimposable results were obtained in women for most steroids except testosterone, which was about 50% increased during DHEA treatment. This increase corresponded to about 0.8 nM testosterone, an effect undetectable in men because they already have much higher (approximately 15 nM) basal testosterone levels. In women, the serum levels of the conjugated metabolites of DHT, namely androsterone glucuronide, androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol-G, androstane-3 beta,17 beta-diol-G, and androsterone-sulfate were increased by 125%, 140%, 120% and 150%, respectively. The present study demonstrates that the serum concentrations of testosterone, DHT, E1, and E2 are poor indicators of total androgenic and estrogenic activity. However, the esterified metabolites of DHT appear as reliable markers of the total androgen pool, because they directly reflect the intracrine formation of androgens in the tissues possessing the steroidogenic enzymes required to transform the inactive precursors DHEA and DHEA-S into DHT. As well demonstrated in women, who synthesize almost all their androgens from DHEA and DHEA-S, supplementation with physiological amounts of exogeneous DHEA permits the biosynthesis of androgens limited to the appropriate target tissues without leakage of significant amounts of active androgens into the circulation. This local or intracrine biosynthesis and action of androgens eliminates the inappropriate exposure of other tissues to androgens and thus minimizes the risks of undesirable masculinizing or other androgen-related side effects of DHEA.

PMID: 9253308 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Jun;84(6):2170-6. [PMID: 10372727]

Biotransformation of oral dehydroepiandrosterone in elderly men: significant increase in circulating estrogens.

Arlt W, Haas J, Callies F, Reincke M, Hubler D, Oettel M, Ernst M, Schulte HM, Allolio B.

The author makes a series of statements in which he cites the 1997 Labrie study (above), saying:

"Labrie et al. (19) administered a 20% DHEA cream in a daily dose of 10 mL for 14 days to a total of eight elderly men and women and found no significant increase in serum estrogen levels in either gender. These results differ from the findings of our study and those of Young et al. (18), but may be explained by the route of DHEA administration. As previously reported for transvaginal (20) and sublingual (13) administration of DHEA, Labrie et al. (18) also described an increased DHEA/DHEAS ratio after percutaneous DHEA administration compared to oral ingestion. Although many tissues contain sulfotransferases (21, 22) and may contribute to the peripheral conversion of DHEA to DHEAS, the hepatic sulfotransferase activity seems to be of predominant importance and is bypassed by nonoral DHEA administration due to avoidance of the hepatic first pass effect. An increased DHEA/DHEAS ratio may lead to a reduced conversion of DHEA to androgens and/or estrogens inside peripheral target cells, as DHEAS has a much longer half-life than DHEA, and it can be continuously converted back to DHEA by widespread tissue sulfatase activity (23, 24, 25, 26) followed by further bioconversion. Furthermore, avoidance of the first pass effect by nonoral administration of DHEA also leads to avoidance of hepatic aromatase and 5-reductase activities. This may explain a lack of conversion to estrogens in men as well as the reduced conversion to androgens in women after percutaneous DHEA administration (19). This view is supported by the data of Casson et al. (20), who found an increase in DHEA, but not in DHEAS and T, after transvaginal DHEA administration. Serum estrogen levels were not reported in this study (20).

In agreement with our results, Labrie et al. (19) and Morales et al. (12) found no significant changes in serum T and DHT in their elderly male volunteers, whereas Young et al. (18) in their patients with hypopituitarism (including six men with unreplaced secondary hypogonadism) reported a slight, but significant, increase in serum androgens still below the normal range for men even after the administration of 200 mg DHEA. However, although total T and DHT remained unaffected in our male volunteers, a small, but significant, increase in serum free T was observed. This may be explained by transient interference of DHEA and DHEAS with binding proteins (e.g. competitive binding of DHEA and free T to SHBG or albumin) rather than by changes in binding protein concentrations. Both DHEA and T bind to SHBG and albumin (27, 28), and the rapid increase in DHEA as well as in DHEAS after oral ingestion of DHEA may be sufficient to displace a significant percentage of the protein-bound fraction of T. However, the increase in free T was short-lived and is most likely of minor importance.

Additionally, in our male volunteers a significant increase in serum ADG, a major metabolite of DHT and also of androstenedione, was observed. This may indicate an enhanced conversion of DHEA to androgens inside peripheral target cells that is not reflected by circulating androgen concentrations. A DHEA-induced increase in androgenic capacity in men may be supported by the findings of Yen et al. (13), who described increased muscular strength and decreased body fat mass in men after 6 months of treatment with a daily dose of 100 mg DHEA, but this may also be a consequence of the reported increase in insulin-like growth factor I (13).

In accordance with previous results both in men (12, 19) and women (12, 13, 17, 19, 29), DHEA administration to our male volunteers also led to a significant increase in serum androstenedione. Thus, DHEA induces a significant increase in serum androstenedione in both sexes, but the direction of further bioconversion may differ depending on the surrounding hormonal background, which may affect peripheral 17�-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, 5-reductase, and aromatase activities."

One thing all of these studies have in common (and I can post more) is that DHEA increases ADG and DHT. ADG increases the potential for prostate growth and DHT can cause some to loose their hair. However, controlling estrogen, and E2 in paticular, should alieviate both issues.
 
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