Tachycardia linked to Chronic Stim use

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    Tachycardia linked to Chronic Stim use


    I use a stim every day and have for 7+ years. Started using them when the kids (2) arrived.

    Coffee (200 mg caffeine) with breakfast 5:00 am and ONE stim like Venom, Viper, RMP, or Leviathin, etc (I rotate the brands) at 7:00 am for my 8:00 am workout. I do not dose stims 2-3x/day hpwever I DO use these daily! Morning only.

    Helps me get out of bed in the morning and get thru my morning workout.

    Should I have any concerns?

    Yes, I'm addicted, sort of. Not in that sense but in the fact I am a lazy ass without them and overeating thereby exacerbating the problem by eating too much and consequently wanting to lounge around more. LOL

    Journal of Medical Case Reports | Full text | Atrial fibrillation-related cardiomyopathy: a case report

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    4mg/ml caffeine in 1000ml bottle. 4gm caffeine? You're fine, bro.
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    I'm worried about the chronicity of use and its cumulative effects. Im prolly screwed
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    I've had atrial fibrillation from too much caffeine. It took me a while to figure out what it actually was. It's a weird feeling, it feels like part of your heart is pumping but you don't have a pulse for the duration of 4-5 regular heart beats. Then after the fibrillation stops you get a big pulse from the main pumping chamber of your heart. Laying off the stims for me gets rid of this as well as keeping stim usage low. If you don't have any palpitations or abnormal heart rhythm you're probably ok.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    4mg/ml caffeine in 1000ml bottle. 4gm caffeine? You're fine, bro.
    Per week my friend. So about 570mg caffeine/day. People that took ECA 3x/day hit this mark.
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    Ah, I missed that, steveoph. Regardless, I wouldn't worry about it for the average healthy user. That dude was in his 50's, sat all day every day, and likely never worked out. A sample of 1 is not a trend. On the other hand, studies have been done on the heaviest coffee consumers (fins in first place, with arabs in 2nd), and the higher the use, the higher the benefits for anti-parkinsons, etc, but I've never seen cardiomyopathy reported.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Ah, I missed that, steveoph. Regardless, I wouldn't worry about it for the average healthy user. That dude was in his 50's, sat all day every day, and likely never worked out. A sample of 1 is not a trend. On the other hand, studies have been done on the heaviest coffee consumers (fins in first place, with arabs in 2nd), and the higher the use, the higher the benefits for anti-parkinsons, etc, but I've never seen cardiomyopathy reported.
    I've read the same thing, many articles and studies showing all the benefits of caffeine. Id say do what feels best for you if you feel anything out of the ordinary look into it.
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    btw, 600mg + ephedra is not at all like caffeine alone. The cardio-stimulatory effects would be exponentially stronger.
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    Bump

    Wached- Did anything result from stim use? My doc just told me I have tachycardia today.
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    No sir

    Sorry to hear of your diagnosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post

    Wacked- Did anything result from stim use? My doc just told me I have tachycardia today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    No sir

    Sorry to hear of your diagnosis
    Was just curious. Thanks though. I'll post an update here in a couple weeks when I see the cardiologist to see if there's anything pertaining to my stim usage or if there's just something wrong with me.
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    Good luck mang

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    Was just curious. Thanks though. I'll post an update here in a couple weeks when I see the cardiologist to see if there's anything pertaining to my stim usage or if there's just something wrong with me.
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    This is just a case report of a single individual getting afib from consuming caffeine. In the face of a library of longterm safety studies (trials, not case reports) on caffeine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    No sir

    Sorry to hear of your diagnosis
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    Was just curious. Thanks though. I'll post an update here in a couple weeks when I see the cardiologist to see if there's anything pertaining to my stim usage or if there's just something wrong with me.
    Lol tachycardia is merely a finding. To confirm actual pathology, they'll need to run an ECG.

    Did you take any stimulants or conduct any exercise prior to your doctor taking your pulse?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Lol tachycardia is merely a finding. To confirm actual pathology, they'll need to run an ECG.

    Did you take any stimulants or conduct any exercise prior to your doctor taking your pulse?
    Yes I understand its a finding and the only caffeine or exercise was beyond 18 hours of my appointment. Also my pulse was below 100 and only documented above 100 once so that irritated me. I'm asymptomatic, even though I'm still in a healthy range, even at the high end. My EKG results were normal. The issue was, that it's been documented in the 90's since 2009.

    I'm in the military though and they make a big deal about everything. I'm also taking it seriously because they're quick to discharge people nowadays with medical reasons, and they're quick to make a big deal out of things-even with a bullsh1t finding (I'm not saying this is worthy of a medical review board by any means, but I want to make sure they don't **** anything up for me). My wife was in that process and had to fight to stay in. So, I know this really isn't a big deal. My father was a flight surgeon and now anesthesiologist and my mom has her PHD and they both said its bullsh1t they called it tachycardia below 100bpm and they always seem to disagree with a low ranking officer MD's medical advice. I talked to them about it last night. It's my career though. Still have to see the cardiologist. At least he can tell the mil doc to not worry.
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    From your info - you are 5'9 217 and in good shape like ur pic......I wouldnt be happy with even 85 as a resting pulse. I think 90 is unhealthy resting pulse from what I read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    Yes I understand its a finding and the only caffeine or exercise was beyond 18 hours of my appointment. Also my pulse was below 100 and only documented above 100 once so that irritated me. I'm asymptomatic, even though I'm still in a healthy range, even at the high end. My EKG results were normal. The issue was, that it's been documented in the 90's since 2009.

    I'm in the military though and they make a big deal about everything. I'm also taking it seriously because they're quick to discharge people nowadays with medical reasons, and they're quick to make a big deal out of things-even with a bullsh1t finding (I'm not saying this is worthy of a medical review board by any means, but I want to make sure they don't **** anything up for me). My wife was in that process and had to fight to stay in. So, I know this really isn't a big deal. My father was a flight surgeon and now anesthesiologist and my mom has her PHD and they both said its bullsh1t they called it tachycardia below 100bpm and they always seem to disagree with a low ranking officer MD's medical advice. I talked to them about it last night. It's my career though. Still have to see the cardiologist. At least he can tell the mil doc to not worry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    From your info - you are 5'9 217 and in good shape like ur pic......I wouldnt be happy with even 85 as a resting pulse. I think 90 is unhealthy resting pulse from what I read.
    I'm in good shape. Lift 4x a week, 2-3x week will be sled pulls and sprints, 2x a week will be PT for work. 90 is obviously higher than it should be BUT it's still under 100..lol

    A stim break by itself could fix the issue. I have never taken a break from stims. I avoid dmaa products and I don't exceed 400mg of caffeine. Regardless, I don't want my docs gettin carried away with stuff.
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    I hear ya mang
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatingisfun View Post
    I've had atrial fibrillation from too much caffeine. It took me a while to figure out what it actually was. It's a weird feeling, it feels like part of your heart is pumping but you don't have a pulse for the duration of 4-5 regular heart beats. Then after the fibrillation stops you get a big pulse from the main pumping chamber of your heart. Laying off the stims for me gets rid of this as well as keeping stim usage low. If you don't have any palpitations or abnormal heart rhythm you're probably ok.
    How the hell did you no u had afib without an ecg, and even better, you managed to self cardiovert yourself. You sir are a freakin genius!

    I think you experienced something the general public likes to call palpitations. Afib is dangerous and deadly from coagulation and clots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I use a stim every day and have for 7+ years. Started using them when the kids (2) arrived.
    Helps me get out of bed in the morning and get thru my morning workout.

    ... Should I have any concerns? ...
    Yes, be concerned. Be very concerned! Be concerned that you're suffering from an extreme case of Wussy Syndrome. j/k

    Man, I took 60mg of Add and/or Dex for 10+ years, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 200ug T4 with a resting PR of NLT 90 for over 20 years, and a contradictory heart condition the whole time (prolonged delta-T with pre-V ex). So if I'm still kickin' after all the stuff I've done, you got it made bro. Seriously, tachycardia doesn't shorten life span from my observation. Now chronically elevated BP, that can cause concern, but that's on the opposite side of your question.

    Caffeine can be problematic endocrinologically. If you cross a daily threshold it can encourage aromatase activity, but you'd notice if that happened.

    Bottom line, after you have a few rug rats to deal with it's reasonable to anticipate using stims indefinitely.
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    A very interesting thread. Sometimes, I am so thankful I quit stims.
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    I think chronic stim usage DOES lead to increased heart rate. Mine is steady at 90 all day long pretty much (but then again its usually taken after a short walk to the pharmacy...). I pray I see 85 or something like that anymore. the only thing I can really blame it on is stim usage in my 20's (ECYA and some clen occasionally). My cardiologist cannot explain it, my echo comes back at 50% or so....I take coreg (slows heart rate down) and I take a dosage a 250 man might take....yet it still stays steady at 90 beats per minute. My cardio said its fine, don't worry about it, and the BP/pulse machine says its "normal"....but I don't like it. I did use PH's off and on, and "steroids" and everything associated for a few years 31-33....but the only chronic constant was stims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicHolic View Post
    I think chronic stim usage DOES lead to increased heart rate. Mine is steady at 90 all day long pretty much (but then again its usually taken after a short walk to the pharmacy...). I pray I see 85 or something like that anymore. the only thing I can really blame it on is stim usage in my 20's (ECYA and some clen occasionally). My cardiologist cannot explain it, my echo comes back at 50% or so....I take coreg (slows heart rate down) and I take a dosage a 250 man might take....yet it still stays steady at 90 beats per minute. My cardio said its fine, don't worry about it, and the BP/pulse machine says its "normal"....but I don't like it. I did use PH's off and on, and "steroids" and everything associated for a few years 31-33....but the only chronic constant was stims.
    Chronic clinical beta-agonist use could absolutely lead to increased HR because it causes pathological left ventricular hypertrophy, which decreases stroke volume leading to an increase in HR to maintain cardiac output.

    This is in sharp contrast to caffeine which has no data suggesting it causes myocardial hypertrophy. Even ephedrine and clen should be safe if consumed reasonably
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    Right....I believe that is exactly what happened. Everything in moderation. But many of us are unaware of these possible long term consequences, esp when we are young. I fear many of our members abuse stims way too much though. But yes I was talking about ephedrine and Clen specifically...caffeine was just one of the adjuncts. Clen is especially nasty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Chronic clinical beta-agonist use could absolutely lead to increased HR because it causes pathological left ventricular hypertrophy, which decreases stroke volume leading to an increase in HR to maintain cardiac output.

    This is in sharp contrast to caffeine which has no data suggesting it causes myocardial hypertrophy. Even ephedrine and clen should be safe if consumed reasonably
    What would be a beta agonist commonly used? If memory recalls correctly, isnt ephedrine and clen beta agonists?
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    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post

    What would be a beta agonist commonly used? If memory recalls correctly, isnt ephedrine and clen beta agonists?
    Yes sir
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    Dr D - well there's a old blast from the distant past! How the heck are rya man!

    Good to see ya around

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yes, be concerned. Be very concerned! Be concerned that you're suffering from an extreme case of Wussy Syndrome. j/k

    Man, I took 60mg of Add and/or Dex for 10+ years, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 200ug T4 with a resting PR of NLT 90 for over 20 years, and a contradictory heart condition the whole time (prolonged delta-T with pre-V ex). So if I'm still kickin' after all the stuff I've done, you got it made bro. Seriously, tachycardia doesn't shorten life span from my observation. Now chronically elevated BP, that can cause concern, but that's on the opposite side of your question.

    Caffeine can be problematic endocrinologically. If you cross a daily threshold it can encourage aromatase activity, but you'd notice if that happened.

    Bottom line, after you have a few rug rats to deal with it's reasonable to anticipate using stims indefinitely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Dr D - well there's a old blast from the distant past! How the heck are rya man!

    Good to see ya around
    I'm still around my brotha! Just doin' the family man thing, and getting old.

    You're still looking great, so you must be doing something right. It's funny how chasing kids around can take your body fat levels to new lows you never thought were possible with normal training.
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    Hahah aint that the truth! lol

    Thanks for the compliment

    Good to see ya around bro!

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I'm still around my brotha! Just doin' the family man thing, and getting old.

    You're still looking great, so you must be doing something right. It's funny how chasing kids around can take your body fat levels to new lows you never thought were possible with normal training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post

    Yes sir
    Thought so!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I'm worried about the chronicity of use and its cumulative effects. Im prolly screwed
    You're not "screwed" so don't freak out about it but it is definitely good to start tapering down now. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist and definitely causes upregulation of adenosine receptors leading to the need for more and more caffeine to have the same effect, this is probably why you may feel terrible if you don't get a similar amount that you are used to getting on a daily basis on any particular day. One good thing here is adenosine receptors tend to up and down regulate fairly quickly so if you can start tapering your dosage every 3 days you should start feeling better. I would say taper by about 10-15% every 3 days until you are within a reasonable range. This process will help with the withdrawals.

    As for the chronic effects on the heart, this can become an issue long term if you don't get it under control. The problem here is caffeine makes your heart work harder than it needs to. By increasing heart rate and blood pressure your heart can thicken, decreasing the atrial and ventricular volumes and lose its elasticity leading to further complications (called ventricular hypertrophy).

    Bottom line, start decreasing now so you don't have to worry later!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athletix View Post

    You're not "screwed" so don't freak out about it but it is definitely good to start tapering down now. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist and definitely causes upregulation of adenosine receptors leading to the need for more and more caffeine to have the same effect, this is probably why you may feel terrible if you don't get a similar amount that you are used to getting on a daily basis on any particular day. One good thing here is adenosine receptors tend to up and down regulate fairly quickly so if you can start tapering your dosage every 3 days you should start feeling better. I would say taper by about 10-15% every 3 days until you are within a reasonable range. This process will help with the withdrawals.

    As for the chronic effects on the heart, this can become an issue long term if you don't get it under control. The problem here is caffeine makes your heart work harder than it needs to. By increasing heart rate and blood pressure your heart can thicken, decreasing the atrial and ventricular volumes and lose its elasticity leading to further complications (called ventricular hypertrophy).

    Bottom line, start decreasing now so you don't have to worry later!
    Well said and one of the reasons i am on a beta blocker. I nor my cardiologist was comfortable with my heart rate in the upper 80s, with coreg its low 60s.

    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    Well said and one of the reasons i am on a beta blocker. I nor my cardiologist was comfortable with my heart rate in the upper 80s, with coreg its low 60s.

    Mike
    Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
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    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    How the hell did you no u had afib without an ecg, and even better, you managed to self cardiovert yourself. You sir are a freakin genius!

    I think you experienced something the general public likes to call palpitations. Afib is dangerous and deadly from coagulation and clots.
    Your arguing with someone who made a post like 3 years ago lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athletix View Post
    Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
    If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. (j/k Mike)

    Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post

    If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. (j/k Mike)

    Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?
    No, we are talking tachycardia related to left ventricular hypertrophy as a result of undiagnosed sleep apnea.

    Left ventricular function to date has been restored and size has reduced back to normal with coreg and my ace inhibitor.

    I take 12.5mg twice a day and love it. I suffer no side effects what so ever, my blood sugar remains stable, my libido is fine as is my energy levels. I gain normal weight in the offseason and easily diet down to single digit bodyfat levels for shows.

    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post

    If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. (j/k Mike)

    Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?
    Coreg was chosen due to its positive inotropic effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athletix View Post

    Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
    Sorry guys my fone doesnt let me multi quote people!

    6.25 didnt do anything. 12.5 twice a day has been great. Coreg makes me feel 100x better all around. I feel that coreg actually makes me feel more energetic.
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    I take 50mg twice a day .....and yes its "doctor prescribed". Despite the increases in dosage, it doesn't seem to lower me below 80's. he/we just kept increasing it since we figured eventually i could get to 60's or so. Never happened. I need to see where I am at when I'm not using anything except the androgel. I might be jacking up my heart rate due to using some PH and AAS lately that I hadn't used in like 7 years....
  

  
 

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