Why is AM still on the arginine bandwagon?

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    Why is AM still on the arginine bandwagon?


    I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

    Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



    Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!

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    i think you answered your own question there
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    I don't believe so...every question about arginine I've seen have been regarding it's use pre-wo
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    I agree arginine is worthless from a size, strength, or performance standpoint. However, regardless of studies, it unequivically does make users look bigger and more vascular. You just can't debate that. No, it doesn't lower lactic acid or speed waste removel from the muscles, as some sources say. It's purely cosmetic. Whether that pump is from some insulin effect, gh effect, or otherwise, I have no idea.

    I don't look for it, but if a product I use has it, like RagNORok or rpm, well that's fine, I'll enjoy the sweet pumps. I don't see any downside to its use. Especially if, indeed, it doesn't raise NO, which would mean there's no danger from elevated free radical levels.
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    Greater pumps, vascularity, strength, and endurance benefits can be found from ingredients that actally raise NO though...


    Agmatine sulfate
    creatine nitrate
    GPLC


    ^^^^ those actually have merit
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    What's the price difference per effective dose? agmantine sucks, btw, I got nothing from a long run.
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    I think arginine has merit in that it can help provide a psychological edge due to vascularity, pump etc, BUT, as iForce said, it is an inferior product therefore when looked at from a distance, therefore its worthless in comparison to superior products for preworkout.
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    Why don't you include citrulline in that list?
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    do arginine, ornithine, and citruline malate not increase "pump" though in the gym? Which means your muscles are getting an increase in blood and therefore are being "fed" better?

    I'm prob way off, it's just what I always thought to be true. interested to see what the pros say...
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    I didn't include CM because it raises Arginine stores in the body which in turn raise NO...it it's not a direct precursor.


    You guys arguing about the "pump"...what good is a pump if it doesn't give any benefits? NO increases will increase nutrient delivery, oxygen delivery, as well as actual strngth/endurance benefits.

    The "pump" feeling can be attained by carbs alone, or a few high rep sets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iForce View Post
    I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

    Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



    Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!
    i feel the same way regarding d-aspartic acid
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    To the poster just above me, arginine will provide a pump, but it will NOT dilate blood vessels...actually the opposite. Arginine pre-wo is the biggest scam this industry has ever fell for.

    A close second is the CEE scam
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    Quote Originally Posted by suresha View Post
    i feel the same way regarding d-aspartic acid
    Daa doesn't interest me in the least...


    NMDA is a whole other story though
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    Quote Originally Posted by iForce View Post
    Daa doesn't interest me in the least...


    NMDA is a whole other story though
    muscle warfare and hard fx is the only two that i'll give the credit to, all the others are trying to ride their wave
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    Quote Originally Posted by iForce View Post
    To the poster just above me, arginine will provide a pump, but it will NOT dilate blood vessels...actually the opposite. Arginine pre-wo is the biggest scam this industry has ever fell for.
    wow--i thought it did dilate blood vessels, hence the perceived increase in vascularity.

    so i guess it's total bunk for high bloop pressure and better woodies too..
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    Arginine is pretty cool and all but lets be honest, it has nothing on the sheer mass gains seen from the strap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iForce View Post
    I didn't include CM because it raises Arginine stores in the body which in turn raise NO...it it's not a direct precursor.


    You guys arguing about the "pump"...what good is a pump if it doesn't give any benefits? NO increases will increase nutrient delivery, oxygen delivery, as well as actual strngth/endurance benefits.

    The "pump" feeling can be attained by carbs alone, or a few high rep sets.
    Citrulline improves performance, regardless of pumps. Hence it's a better ingredient in a pump product, imo.

    I don't pretend to know why, I just know it IS: arginine provides increased, prolonged pumps (over a high-rep set or carb pump, the arginine pump just lasts longer and is more intense). A good many guys here work out partly or fully for cosmetic reasons, and so they're perfectly happy with a purely cosmetic pump effect, especially if it's cheap, safe, and takes quick effect.

    Personally it's not something I buy a product for, but if it does that, it's fine. If someone has a clue how it provides the pump without actually increasing recovery or endurance, i'd love to hear it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iForce View Post
    To the poster just above me, arginine will provide a pump, but it will NOT dilate blood vessels...actually the opposite. Arginine pre-wo is the biggest scam this industry has ever fell for.

    A close second is the CEE scam
    i like this guy
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    ill stick to my glycocarn, icarrin, and agmatine. nothing is better i guarantee u that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanchezgreg18 View Post
    ill stick to my glycocarn, icarrin, and agmatine. nothing is better i guarantee u that.
    Awesome combo right there!
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    How does arginine provide a pump while doing opposite of vasodialation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by iForce View Post
    Greater pumps, vascularity, strength, and endurance benefits can be found from ingredients that actally raise NO though...


    Agmatine sulfate
    creatine nitrate
    GPLC


    ^^^^ those actually have merit
    This no doubt...I have no use for arginine in my supps when these all provide a greater amount of benefits as well...
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    o.0 arginine helps me get a pump, my workout buddy too. its not in our heads.

    personally, a bigger pump will help me lift more weight. some days when im runnin on minimal carbs trying to cut i just cant get a pump at all and feeling deflated makes me try less hard. if i can get really pumped and im feeling huge, you bet im gona push more weight. i know a lot of ppl who are the same way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanchezgreg18 View Post
    ill stick to my glycocarn, icarrin, and agmatine. nothing is better i guarantee u that.
    Nice, I'll have to look into this
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    Quote Originally Posted by EustisPanther View Post
    Nice, I'll have to look into this
    That's pretty much hemovol. Try it. And don't bother with the bulk powders, unless you cap em. HGW is HELL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    That's pretty much hemovol. Try it. And don't bother with the bulk powders, unless you cap em. HGW is HELL.
    I cap my bulk powders. Swallowing CM in powder form is like licking a battery terminal
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    Well then do it, and report back!
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    I have not read the thread but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    ...

    ARGININE AND ORNITHINE SUPPLEMENTATION
    INCREASES GROWTH HORMONE AND INSULIN-LIKE
    GROWTH FACTOR-1 SERUM LEVELS AFTER
    HEAVY-RESISTANCE EXERCISE IN
    STRENGTH-TRAINED ATHLETES
    ADAM ZAJAC,1 STANISŁAW POPRZE˛ CKI,2 ALEKSANDRA _ZEBROWSKA,3 MAŁGORZATA CHALIMONIUK,4
    AND JOZEF LANGFORT
    3,5




    From the study...

    GH



    IGF-1



    Study showed no impact on Cortisol, Test, or Insulin.
    Lactate was significantly lower during training with supplementation but at no other times (rest & recovery)
    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    btw other notes:


    • Diet was 60% chc, 25%pro, 15%fat
    • S group
      received an oral supplement of
      2,200 mg of L-ornithine, 3,000
      mg of L-Arg, and 12 mg of
      vitamin B12 (in gelatin capsules)
      twice daily for a total of 3 weeks.
    • The first
      dose was administered at least 2 hours after breakfast (to
      avoid competition for absorption with other amino acids)
      and 60 minutes before the training session.
    • The second dose
      of the supplement was taken at least 2 hours after the last
      meal, but 30 minutes before bedtime.
    • They made them ****ing back squat A LOT. Be thankful you were not part of this study.
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    I notice an increase in pump when I take it pre-workout.

    So basically to me it's just for fun. lol
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    i used nanox9 by mussle tech and it was a blend of 4 Different forms of arginine and got such a pump my skin was bright red and arms felt like they were gonna pop and that was before i even started working out what else does this but NO. im not trying to boost the product either i hate muscle tech
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    Nice post, royd!
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    I take it iForce is coming out with a non-arginine containing supplement?
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    Quote Originally Posted by iForce View Post
    I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

    Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



    Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!
    do you have a product you can guarantee insane pumps with?
    Truth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Manback View Post
    I take it iForce is coming out with a non-arginine containing supplement?
    We've had one out for a long time now...really didn't intend for this to promote anything Iforce. Just genuinely curious
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Manback View Post
    I take it iForce is coming out with a non-arginine containing supplement?
    Quote Originally Posted by jherman08 View Post
    do you have a product you can guarantee insane pumps with?
    Hemavol guys. i will vouch for it , definately my favorite aside from my custom bulk powder stack. but even 1 serving of hemavol with 2 grams of GPLC is pumptastic, better than full dose gplc IMO.


    oh yeah new maximize has agmatine and no arginine aswell
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    Quote Originally Posted by iForce View Post
    We've had one out for a long time now...really didn't intend for this to promote anything Iforce. Just genuinely curious
    Sneaky sneaky.

    I'm gonna go start a thread: why all the pre-workout caffeine products, instead of the original go-juice, coffee. I ain't pimpin, I swear.

    seriously, good discussion. Hemovol looks great, despite my non-love for agmantine.
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    Maybe I'll make a thread on cee next
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    No need. We're all up on the cee hate.
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    I'm gonna go start a thread: why all the pre-workout caffeine products, instead of the original go-juice, coffee. I ain't pimpin, I swear.
    At the risk of promoting broscience, I remember someone questioning why pre w/o products contain creatine and caffeine. The claim was they have competitive absorption, which caffeine seems to win?
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    wow i did not know alot of this and i thought i was a supp guru
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