Why is AM still on the arginine bandwagon?

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iForce

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I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!
 

iForce

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I don't believe so...every question about arginine I've seen have been regarding it's use pre-wo
 
poison

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I agree arginine is worthless from a size, strength, or performance standpoint. However, regardless of studies, it unequivically does make users look bigger and more vascular. You just can't debate that. No, it doesn't lower lactic acid or speed waste removel from the muscles, as some sources say. It's purely cosmetic. Whether that pump is from some insulin effect, gh effect, or otherwise, I have no idea.

I don't look for it, but if a product I use has it, like RagNORok or rpm, well that's fine, I'll enjoy the sweet pumps. :D I don't see any downside to its use. Especially if, indeed, it doesn't raise NO, which would mean there's no danger from elevated free radical levels. ;)
 

iForce

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Greater pumps, vascularity, strength, and endurance benefits can be found from ingredients that actally raise NO though...


Agmatine sulfate
creatine nitrate
GPLC


^^^^ those actually have merit
 
poison

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What's the price difference per effective dose? ;) agmantine sucks, btw, I got nothing from a long run.
 

ecosocialist

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I think arginine has merit in that it can help provide a psychological edge due to vascularity, pump etc, BUT, as iForce said, it is an inferior product therefore when looked at from a distance, therefore its worthless in comparison to superior products for preworkout.
 
poison

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Why don't you include citrulline in that list?
 
freefall365

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do arginine, ornithine, and citruline malate not increase "pump" though in the gym? Which means your muscles are getting an increase in blood and therefore are being "fed" better?

I'm prob way off, it's just what I always thought to be true. interested to see what the pros say...
 

iForce

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I didn't include CM because it raises Arginine stores in the body which in turn raise NO...it it's not a direct precursor.


You guys arguing about the "pump"...what good is a pump if it doesn't give any benefits? NO increases will increase nutrient delivery, oxygen delivery, as well as actual strngth/endurance benefits.

The "pump" feeling can be attained by carbs alone, or a few high rep sets.
 

suresha

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I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!
i feel the same way regarding d-aspartic acid:suspect::irked::censored::sad6:
 

iForce

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To the poster just above me, arginine will provide a pump, but it will NOT dilate blood vessels...actually the opposite. Arginine pre-wo is the biggest scam this industry has ever fell for.

A close second is the CEE scam :)
 

suresha

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Daa doesn't interest me in the least...


NMDA is a whole other story though :D
muscle warfare and hard fx is the only two that i'll give the credit to, all the others are trying to ride their wave
 
freefall365

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To the poster just above me, arginine will provide a pump, but it will NOT dilate blood vessels...actually the opposite. Arginine pre-wo is the biggest scam this industry has ever fell for.
wow--i thought it did dilate blood vessels, hence the perceived increase in vascularity.

so i guess it's total bunk for high bloop pressure and better woodies too.. :suspect:
 

ecosocialist

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Arginine is pretty cool and all but lets be honest, it has nothing on the sheer mass gains seen from the strap.
 
poison

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I didn't include CM because it raises Arginine stores in the body which in turn raise NO...it it's not a direct precursor.


You guys arguing about the "pump"...what good is a pump if it doesn't give any benefits? NO increases will increase nutrient delivery, oxygen delivery, as well as actual strngth/endurance benefits.

The "pump" feeling can be attained by carbs alone, or a few high rep sets.
Citrulline improves performance, regardless of pumps. Hence it's a better ingredient in a pump product, imo.

I don't pretend to know why, I just know it IS: arginine provides increased, prolonged pumps (over a high-rep set or carb pump, the arginine pump just lasts longer and is more intense). A good many guys here work out partly or fully for cosmetic reasons, and so they're perfectly happy with a purely cosmetic pump effect, especially if it's cheap, safe, and takes quick effect.

Personally it's not something I buy a product for, but if it does that, it's fine. If someone has a clue how it provides the pump without actually increasing recovery or endurance, i'd love to hear it.
 
capnsavem

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To the poster just above me, arginine will provide a pump, but it will NOT dilate blood vessels...actually the opposite. Arginine pre-wo is the biggest scam this industry has ever fell for.

A close second is the CEE scam :)
i like this guy :smirk:
 
sanchezgreg18

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ill stick to my glycocarn, icarrin, and agmatine. nothing is better i guarantee u that.
 
poison

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How does arginine provide a pump while doing opposite of vasodialation?
 
bolt10

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Greater pumps, vascularity, strength, and endurance benefits can be found from ingredients that actally raise NO though...


Agmatine sulfate
creatine nitrate
GPLC


^^^^ those actually have merit
This no doubt...I have no use for arginine in my supps when these all provide a greater amount of benefits as well...
 
tnubs

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o.0 arginine helps me get a pump, my workout buddy too. its not in our heads.

personally, a bigger pump will help me lift more weight. some days when im runnin on minimal carbs trying to cut i just cant get a pump at all and feeling deflated makes me try less hard. if i can get really pumped and im feeling huge, you bet im gona push more weight. i know a lot of ppl who are the same way.
 
EustisPanther

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That's pretty much hemovol. Try it. And don't bother with the bulk powders, unless you cap em. HGW is HELL.
I cap my bulk powders. Swallowing CM in powder form is like licking a battery terminal :sick:
 
poison

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Well then do it, and report back!
 
Royd The Noyd

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I have not read the thread but...

...

ARGININE AND ORNITHINE SUPPLEMENTATION
INCREASES GROWTH HORMONE AND INSULIN-LIKE
GROWTH FACTOR-1 SERUM LEVELS AFTER
HEAVY-RESISTANCE EXERCISE IN
STRENGTH-TRAINED ATHLETES
ADAM ZAJAC,1 STANISŁAW POPRZE˛ CKI,2 ALEKSANDRA _ZEBROWSKA,3 MAŁGORZATA CHALIMONIUK,4
AND JOZEF LANGFORT
3,5




From the study...

GH



IGF-1



Study showed no impact on Cortisol, Test, or Insulin.
Lactate was significantly lower during training with supplementation but at no other times (rest & recovery)
btw other notes:


  • Diet was 60% chc, 25%pro, 15%fat
  • S group
    received an oral supplement of
    2,200 mg of L-ornithine, 3,000
    mg of L-Arg, and 12 mg of
    vitamin B12 (in gelatin capsules)
    twice daily for a total of 3 weeks.
  • The first
    dose was administered at least 2 hours after breakfast (to
    avoid competition for absorption with other amino acids)
    and 60 minutes before the training session.
  • The second dose
    of the supplement was taken at least 2 hours after the last
    meal, but 30 minutes before bedtime.
  • They made them ****ing back squat A LOT. Be thankful you were not part of this study.
 
Type O Hero

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I notice an increase in pump when I take it pre-workout.

So basically to me it's just for fun. lol :D
 

Eric160

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i used nanox9 by mussle tech and it was a blend of 4 Different forms of arginine and got such a pump my skin was bright red and arms felt like they were gonna pop and that was before i even started working out what else does this but NO. im not trying to boost the product either i hate muscle tech
 
Harry Manback

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I take it iForce is coming out with a non-arginine containing supplement?
 
jherman08

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I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!
do you have a product you can guarantee insane pumps with? ;)
 
sanchezgreg18

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I take it iForce is coming out with a non-arginine containing supplement?
do you have a product you can guarantee insane pumps with? ;)
Hemavol guys. i will vouch for it , definately my favorite aside from my custom bulk powder stack. but even 1 serving of hemavol with 2 grams of GPLC is pumptastic, better than full dose gplc IMO.


oh yeah new maximize has agmatine and no arginine aswell
 
poison

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We've had one out for a long time now...really didn't intend for this to promote anything Iforce. Just genuinely curious
Sneaky sneaky.

I'm gonna go start a thread: why all the pre-workout caffeine products, instead of the original go-juice, coffee. I ain't pimpin, I swear.

:p seriously, good discussion. Hemovol looks great, despite my non-love for agmantine.
 
poison

poison

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No need. We're all up on the cee hate.
 
PublicEnemy

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I'm gonna go start a thread: why all the pre-workout caffeine products, instead of the original go-juice, coffee. I ain't pimpin, I swear.
At the risk of promoting broscience, I remember someone questioning why pre w/o products contain creatine and caffeine. The claim was they have competitive absorption, which caffeine seems to win?
 
rochabp

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wow i did not know alot of this and i thought i was a supp guru
 

iForce

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At the risk of promoting broscience, I remember someone questioning why pre w/o products contain creatine and caffeine. The claim was they have competitive absorption, which caffeine seems to win?
I don't believe they compete for absorption.

Caffeine is a vasoconstrictor though, so for NO purposes it'd be a negative.
 
poison

poison

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****ing ****, goddamn it! I had tediously cut and pasted the ****ing study paragraph by paragraph...and then my phone ate it. Bitch ass piece of ****. Fuxk!


Lol dammit.
 
poison

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um is what causes muscles to either contract or relax. A muscle contracts when calcium is released from storage sites deep inside the muscle. In other words, free calcium is the signal that tells a muscle to contract. Likewise, our muscles relax when calcium is reabsorbed into these internal storage sites. However, the restorage of calcium is an energetically expensive process and in this manner muscle relaxation cost us energy. The energy that pays for muscle relaxation comes from phosphocreatine Dr. Hepel’s group in Belgium has elegantly shown that phwn that phosphocreatine levels determine muscle relaxation rate. When our muscle phosphocreatine levels are high, as a result of supplementation, our muscles relax more rapidly. Conversely when our phosphocreatine stores are low, muscle relaxation is slowed and our exercise performance drops Although caffeine doesn’t alter phosphocreatine levels, eine may nevertheless retard muscle relaxation by altering muscle calcium levels. Interestingly, caffeine is known to release calcium form internal stores. As outlined previously, this would slow muscle relaxation and jeopardize exercise performance, despite caffeine’s know stimulatory properties. Therefore, caffeine may negate creatine’s benefit by liberating internal calcium and thereby slowing muscle relaxation time.
 

fidget324

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For all of those who like arginine for a pump..... try glycerol monostearate (a good product is CL Glycergrow). You will look RIDICULOUS in the gym in terms of muscle swelling as long as you drink enough water with it. However, pumps only contribute to your physique in the gym, not the long term. Remember this when you spend your cash$$$ :D
 

hardknock

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I've been seeing a lot of arginine questions lately, and I'm a bit stumped as to why.

Arginine has been proven to NOT raise NO levels in humans. It is completely worthless pre-wo in ANY form.



Now don't get me wrong...arginine has it's place(gh release, insulin release), but it's before bed!!!
Some people use it strictly for cosmetic reasons and it is completely cheaper than almost ANY ONE THING you can list or name. For you, me, them, they, we may all work out for this reason, but Joe and Sue may work out for a complete different reason.
If people want to use it just for pump effects and looks, leave the gym and look "swollen" for a few hours, hey, I cannot knock them for that.

Hell, if either of you want to down a few dimes of Strychnine, go for it. Just leave me in your will.
 

hardknock

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****ing ****, goddamn it! I had tediously cut and pasted the ****ing study paragraph by paragraph...and then my phone ate it. Bitch ass piece of ****. Fuxk!


Lol dammit.
lol, tell me about it.
 
CopyCat

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I have to go with Primordial Performances GlycoCarn GPLC on this one.
 
poison

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natty, I agree. It's unmistakable. It may be that it's not increased NO, but some other mechanism, who knows?
 
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