Protein Update

[Fenway]

There was an article in men's health "the truth about protein" with some interesting facts and updates. Here is a summary:

1. Athletes need .77 grams daily per pound of body weight on average. If you workout more than 5 or more days a week for an hour or longer, protein consumption should be reduced to .55 grams per pound of body weight. If you are trying to loose weight, more of your calories need to come from protein. The article adds extra protein will not hurt your kidneys, but taking more protein than this will not have any extra benefit. Actually, you will just have to burn it off.
2. Best source of protein is dairy, eggs, meat, and fish. Secondary sources include nuts and beans. The big benefit to animal protein is that it contains the correct portion of essential amino acids that you body can synthesize on its own. If the protein source is plant based, you need to consume 20-25 precent more to gain the same effects as animal based protein. Plant based proteins also contain more carbs, making it harder to loose weight.
3. Your body is always breaking down protein. Every 30 grams of protein you take, your body needs about 3 hours to break it down. The consumption of protein triggers protein synthesis. General rule of thumb, is that 30 grams per serving is optimal, and synthesis takes 3 hours. Protein should be spread out though out the entire day. Furthermore, taking 90 grams of protein in one serving only provides your body with same effect as taking 30 grams for purposes of building muscles. Lastly, those who consume protein with each meal or snack, consume on average, 200 fewer calories than those who dont.
4. The most important time to take protein if after exercise. For optimal results, split the 30 grams in half, taking 15 grams 30 minutes prior to exercise, and the remaining 15 grams within 30 minutes post exercise.
5. Whey protein is still the king. After consuming whey, it will appear in your bloodstream within 15 minutes after you consume it. Whey protein is the best source of leucine, which acts like a hormone to build muscle. Whey protein also contains 10% leucine, while animal protein only has 5%. Casein, is a slower absorbing, but more sustained source of amino acids
6. Chicken, turkey or tuna (3 oz) have on average 15-20 grams of protein, and about 60-100 calories.
7. 3 brown eggs have about 19 grams of protein and 230 calories. That contrary to popular belief, the fat in an egg is healthy and filling.
8. Chocolate 2% milk (16 oz) has 17 grams of protein and 330 calories. The Journal of American College of Nutrition claims that chocolate milk such as this is the best post workout beverage supplement on the market for building muscle.
9. Whey protein (30 gram scoop) has about 24 grams of protein and 110 calories. Mixing with milk adds additional protein. The articles suggests NITREAN as suggested brand for whey isolates that are absorbed quickly, and digested slowly.
10. Greek yogurt (5.3 oz.) has 15 grams protein and 80 calories. To add a boost to the yogurt, mix in juts and berries, and try to avoid yogurt with fruit and sugar.

Hope you find this helpful. Reps are appreciated.

 

[brettxw]

I am really glad you posted this because I was coming on to ask a question that this pretty much answered (in a way, i think). In my first post, some one said I needed 1g of protein per lb. Since I'm roughly 145lbs I figured I needed some help and found an addiction to these protein bars (chocolate chip). They have 32g of protein and I find myself eating at least 4 a day. My question is, is that ok? Or am I going about it the wrong way by eating 4 protein bars a day? They are just so good haha.

After reading your article I am so going to be drinking chocolate milk now!

 

[MrRobRage]

this article is such bs its sad.

 

[MichaelRay]

I like to read this article.Thanks for it.

 

[Fenway]

this article is such bs its sad.

I didn't write it, I just reported it. For what its worth, the article consulted some of the top people in the game. Take it for what its worth.

 

[Lacradocious]

I still think you need to eat a lot more protein than that article suggests to gain and maintain muscle mass. That's why you always see big guys eating all the time. I don't mean junk food either. My appetite is way higher now that I weigh well over 200 pounds. I would say I need more protein because I have more muscle to maintain than before, plus I am burning more calories now. I wouldn't have put on the same amount of muscle mass I have in the last few years if I hadn't upped my protein intake.

 

[dawn01]

excellent post there..! i really learned something from it.. because i was supposed to ask questions regarding supplements and bars.., but the answer's here already.!
neat..!

 

[Fenway]

I still think you need to eat a lot more protein than that article suggests to gain and maintain muscle mass. That's why you always see big guys eating all the time. I don't mean junk food either. My appetite is way higher now that I weigh well over 200 pounds. I would say I need more protein because I have more muscle to maintain than before, plus I am burning more calories now. I wouldn't have put on the same amount of muscle mass I have in the last few years if I hadn't upped my protein intake.

I see your point, and share your feelings, but it is hard to argue with science. I think we can all agree that our bodies can only absorb so much. As a general rule, we all know 1 gram per lb of body weight. The burning question is can our body really use that much. I tend to think that .75 grams per lb is pretty right on. As for me, at 200 lbs, that would be 200 grams. For the past two days, I have been keeping up with the .77 or about 150 grams. I have yet to see or feel any difference. Perhaps someone should log it and see.

I am going to try the chocolate milk thing, as well as a glass of afterglow, and see how it goes. I think the article is available online, as well as a great article on creatine that is worth a read.

 

[benj851]

I never understood why people actually ask to be repped... in the end it doesn't really mean anything. whats the big deal? shouldn't the post be about giving and sharing knowledge with the community instead of about putting something up to get some green bars?

no offense, just stating my opinion.

 

[Fenway]

I never understood why people actually ask to be repped... in the end it doesn't really mean anything. whats the big deal? shouldn't the post be about giving and sharing knowledge with the community instead of about putting something up to get some green bars?

no offense, just stating my opinion.

Wasn't asking for it, just stated in advance they are appreciated. IMO, I was just trying to thank those in advance who acknowledge the time it takes to put to put up posts such as the one I did...to share the info and knowledge that is passed on. If you read my posts, it not about the bars at all. Its about giving something back. To me, the bars are not about status, it about a "thanks" for the time and effort that goes into quality posts. I can't speak for everyone else. I was simply thanking those in advance who thank me by a rep for my posts.

 

[jherman08]

so Jay Cutler only needs 30g of protein per meal?

 

[Fenway]

so Jay Cutler only needs 30g of protein per meal?

That is what the experts would say who were consulted for the article.

IMO, what you need to grow beyond natural limitations, and what your body can process naturally are two different things. As for Mr. Cutler, there is a big difference between him and the average person. The average "natural" person can only process 30 grams per 3 hours by nature.. In a typical day, with this schedule, that would be 180 grams per day.

I'm not sure how much Cutler weighs or how often he eats, but I'm sure he is not natural. Protein builds muscle, but extra protein does not mean more natural muscle. If that was the case, why inject or why take prohormones at all if all you had to do was take 100 grams of protein per serving to build extra muscles? There are limitations on everything, including eating, lifting, etc. It appears the limitation of protein is 30 grams per serving, every 3 hours.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I did some research and can't find any science to suggest your body can process more than 30 grams of protein every three hours. If you find some, post up. I would love to read it.

 

[jherman08]

That is what the experts would say who were consulted for the article.

IMO, what you need to grow beyond natural limitations, and what your body can process naturally are two different things. As for Mr. Cutler, there is a big difference between him and the average person. The average "natural" person can only process 30 grams per 3 hours by nature.. In a typical day, with this schedule, that would be 180 grams per day.

I'm not sure how much Cutler weighs or how often he eats, but I'm sure he is not natural. Protein builds muscle, but extra protein does not mean more natural muscle. If that was the case, why inject or why take prohormones at all if all you had to do was take 100 grams of protein per serving to build extra muscles? There are limitations on everything, including eating, lifting, etc. It appears the limitation of protein is 30 grams per serving, every 3 hours.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I did some research and can't find any science to suggest your body can process more than 30 grams of protein every three hours. If you find some, post up. I would love to read it.

Im not trying to be difficult either, but i disagree. Someone who doesnt workout may maintain muscle by eating 30g of protein per meal, but if you lift weights my opinion is it would be more.

 

[donbx]

That is what the experts would say who were consulted for the article.

IMO, what you need to grow beyond natural limitations, and what your body can process naturally are two different things. As for Mr. Cutler, there is a big difference between him and the average person. The average "natural" person can only process 30 grams per 3 hours by nature.. In a typical day, with this schedule, that would be 180 grams per day.

I'm not sure how much Cutler weighs or how often he eats, but I'm sure he is not natural. Protein builds muscle, but extra protein does not mean more natural muscle. If that was the case, why inject or why take prohormones at all if all you had to do was take 100 grams of protein per serving to build extra muscles? There are limitations on everything, including eating, lifting, etc. It appears the limitation of protein is 30 grams per serving, every 3 hours.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I did some research and can't find any science to suggest your body can process more than 30 grams of protein every three hours. If you find some, post up. I would love to read it.

your body uses what you give it, 6 small meals or 1 large meal dont matter imo.

 

[capnsavem]

I never understood why people actually ask to be repped... in the end it doesn't really mean anything. whats the big deal? shouldn't the post be about giving and sharing knowledge with the community instead of about putting something up to get some green bars?

no offense, just stating my opinion.

dude, just give me reps. you know you want to. :smirk:

 

[capnsavem]

so Jay Cutler only needs 30g of protein per meal?

no way... with all the gear he runs and at the rate he grows, he needs an entire cow and 17 chickens every 2-3 hours.

 

[zodiiac523]

That is what the experts would say who were consulted for the article.

IMO, what you need to grow beyond natural limitations, and what your body can process naturally are two different things. As for Mr. Cutler, there is a big difference between him and the average person. The average "natural" person can only process 30 grams per 3 hours by nature.. In a typical day, with this schedule, that would be 180 grams per day.

I'm not sure how much Cutler weighs or how often he eats, but I'm sure he is not natural. Protein builds muscle, but extra protein does not mean more natural muscle. If that was the case, why inject or why take prohormones at all if all you had to do was take 100 grams of protein per serving to build extra muscles? There are limitations on everything, including eating, lifting, etc. It appears the limitation of protein is 30 grams per serving, every 3 hours.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I did some research and can't find any science to suggest your body can process more than 30 grams of protein every three hours. If you find some, post up. I would love to read it.

are these the same experts that say a 220 lb man is overweight at 6% BF?


Most people on this forum are not considered a normal person, i know i dont look like normal people anyway, i lift to not be normal, i lift to be big, and eat the same way.. i suppose that write up does work for a normal person.. but the rest of us will continuing getting as much protein as we can..



would you rather have too much or a shortage?

 

[jherman08]

are these the same experts that say a 220 lb man is overweight at 6% BF?


Most people on this forum are not considered a normal person, i know i dont look like normal people anyway, i lift to not be normal, i lift to be big, and eat the same way.. i suppose that write up does work for a normal person.. but the rest of us will continuing getting as much protein as we can..



would you rather have too much or a shortage?

:beerchug: (protein not beer lol)

 

[Fenway]

I didn't write the article, I just posted it up. The only point I am making (which I am not doing a good job at) is that average human body can only process 30 grams every 3 hours though protein synthesis. The point being, what the average bodybuilder may need to build muscle is more than the body can process.

In support of this, the article cites several studies that have been done on this point, where group A took 90 grams per serving, and group B took 30 grams. The conclusion, 90 grams had the same effect as 30, as that is the max the body can process. By analogy, the article states putting protein into your body is like putting gas into your car, performance is based on the type of gas you put in the tank, but once the tank is full, any extra is spillover.

I only point this out, that if this is true, and the body can only process 30 grams per 3 hours, taking extra does not appear to have any benefit, despite those of us could benefit from more who are involved with bodybuilding, if we could process more.

 

[jherman08]

i understand what youre trying to say but cant even begin to believe it. Chicken breasts are usually like 10-12 oz a piece and thats upwards and over 90g of protein. Your saying only a third of that is actually getting used by our bodies? Im gonna just start eating my sh!t instead of flushing it

 

[Fenway]

i understand what youre trying to say but cant even begin to believe it. Chicken breasts are usually like 10-12 oz a piece and thats upwards and over 90g of protein. Your saying only a third of that is actually getting used by our bodies? Im gonna just start eating my sh!t instead of flushing it

Let me know if it tastes like chicken

 

[jherman08]

Let me know if it tastes like chicken

haha :dead1:

 

[Dizmal]

Where's that Alan Aragon article that was just posted...

 

[Fenway]

Where's that Alan Aragon article that was just posted...

Would this be the one?
http://www.afboard.com/forum/showthread.php?38261-Alan-Aragon-Is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal&p=548191#post548191

 

[zodiiac523]

:beerchug: (protein not beer lol)

haha, word bro... I understand your just trying to prove a point but do you think if it didnt matter people like jay cutler for example would eat as damn much as he does.. obviously people have experimented with it themselves and came to the conclusion if they eat more, they get bigger.. if you could just eat 30 grams per meal and grow people would do that..

 

[Dizmal]

Would this be the one?
http://www.afboard.com/forum/showthread.php?38261-Alan-Aragon-Is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal&p=548191#post548191

That would be it. It seems to fly in the face of the OP's article and he also has many fancy references.


http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/

Is there a limit to how much protein the body can use in a single meal?
Posted by Alan Aragon on February 22nd, 2010 Printer-Friendly Bookmark & Share


Introduction

A longstanding belief in fitness circles is that the body can only use a certain amount of protein per meal, and the excess is either oxidized or excreted. The ballpark range thrown around is 20-30 grams, with 30 grams being perhaps the most common figure.

This guideline has led many trainees to go through the pains of consuming multiple doses of protein throughout the day, banking that it will maximize muscle anabolism or muscle retention.

Well, true or not, this concept fits in nicely with another longstanding fitness “rule” that you have to eat at least six times per day in order to keep the body’s metabolism revving high. Since the meal frequency and metabolism dogma has been thoroughly debunked [1-5], it’s time to dig into the topic of whether there’s a limit to effective protein dosing, and if so, what that limit might be.

Looking at simple logic first

Let’s imagine an experiment involving two relatively lean 200 lb individuals. For the purposes of this illustration, I’ll assign a daily amount of protein known to adequately support the needs of the athletic population. We’ll give Person A 150 g protein spread over five meals at 30 g each. We’ll give Person B the same amount of protein, but in a single meal. Let’s say that this meal consists of a 16 oz steak, chased with a shake containing two scoops of protein powder.

If we really believed that only 30 g protein can be handled by the body in a single meal, then Person B would eventually run into protein deficiency symptoms because he supposedly is only absorbing a total of 30 g out of the 150 g we’re giving him. At 30 g/day, he’s only getting 0.33 g/kg of bodyweight, which isn’t even half of the already-low RDA of 0.8 g/kg. If the body worked this way, the human species would have quickly become extinct. The human body is more efficient and effective than we give it credit for.

The body will take all the sweet time it needs to effectively digest and absorb just about whatever dose you give it. Person A will have shorter digestion periods per meal in order to effectively absorb and utilize the small meals. Person B will have a longer digestion period in order to effectively absorb and utilize the large meal. While the truth in this logic seems self-evident, the important question is whether or not it’s supported by scientific research. Let’s look at the evidence, starting with immediate-effect (acute) studies, then move on to the longer-term trials.

Research examining speed of absorption

A thorough literature review by Bilsborough and Mann compiled data from studies by various investigators who measured the absorption rates of various protein sources [6]. Oddly, an amino acid mixture designed to mimic the composition of pork tenderloin made the top spot, at 10 g/hour, while whey took a close second at 8-10 g/hour. Other proteins fell in their respective spots below the top two, with little rhyme or reason behind the outcomes. As a matter of trivia, raw egg protein was the most slowly absorbed of them all at 1.3 g/hour.

It’s important to note that these data have some serious limitations. A major one is the variance of the methods used to determine the absorption rates (i.e., intravenous infusion, oral ingestion, ileal ingestion). Most of the methods are just too crude or far-fetched for serious consideration. Another limitation is that these figures could be skewed depending upon their concentration in solution, which can affect their rate of gastric evacuation. Another factor to consider is the timing of ingestion relative to exercise and how that might differentially affect absorption rates. Finally, short-term data leaves a lot open to question.

Short-term research supporting the magic limit

I’ve heard many folks parrot that the maximal anabolic effect of a single protein dose is limited to 20 grams, citing recent work by Moore and colleagues [7]. In this study’s 4-hour post-exercise test period, 40 g protein did not elicit a greater anabolic response than 20 g. I’d interpret these outcomes with caution. Fundamentally speaking, protein utilization can differ according to muscle mass. The requirements of a 140-lb person will differ markedly from someone who’s a lean 200. Additionally, a relatively low amount of total volume was used (12 sets total). Typical training bouts usually involve more than one muscle group and are commonly at least double that volume, which can potentially increase the demand for nutrient uptake. Finally, the conclusion of the authors is questionable. They state explicitly,

“…we speculate that no more than 5-6 times daily could one ingest this amount (~20 g) of protein and expect muscle protein synthesis to be maximally stimulated.”

So, they’re implying that 100-120 grams of protein per day is maximal for promoting muscle growth. Wait a minute, what? Based on both the bulk of the research evidence and numerous field observations, this is simply false [8,9].

In another recent study, Symons and colleagues compared the 5-hour response of a moderate serving of lean beef containing 30 g protein with a large serving containing 90 g protein [10]. The smaller serving increased protein synthesis by approximately 50%, and the larger serving caused no further increase in protein synthesis, despite being triple the dose. The researchers concluded that the ingestion of more than 30 g protein in a single meal does not further enhance muscle protein synthesis. While their conclusion indeed supports the outcomes of their short-term study, it’s pretty easy to predict the outcomes in muscle size and strength if we compared a total daily protein dose of 90 g with 30 g over a longer trial period, let alone one involving a structured exercise protocol. This brings me to the crucial point that acute outcomes merely provide grounds for hypothesis. It’s not completely meaningless, but it’s far from conclusive without examining the long-term effects.

Longer-term research challenging the magic limit

If we were to believe the premise that a 20-30 g dose of protein yields a maximal anabolic effect, then it follows that any excess beyond this dose would be wasted. On the contrary, the body is smarter than that. In a 14-day trial, Arnal and colleagues found no difference in fat-free mass or nitrogen retention between consuming 79% of the day’s protein needs (roughly 54 g) in one meal, versus the same amount spread across four meals [11].

Notably, this study was done on young female adults whose fat-free mass averaged 40.8 kg (89.8 lb). Considering that most non-sedentary males have considerably more lean mass than the female subjects used in the aforementioned trial, it’s plausible that much more than 54 g protein in a single meal can be efficiently processed for anabolic and/or anti-catabolic purposes. If we extrapolated the protein dose used in this study (79% of 1.67g/kg) to the average adult male, it would be roughly 85-95 g or even more, depending on just how close someone is to the end of the upper limits of muscular size.

When Arnal and colleagues applied the same protocol to the elderly population, the single-dose treatment actually caused better muscle protein retention than the multiple-dose treatment [12]. This raises the possibility that as we age, larger protein feedings might be necessary to achieve the same effect on protein retention as lesser amounts in our youth.

IF research nailing the coffin shut?

Perhaps the strongest case against the idea of a dosing limit beyond which anabolism or muscle retention can occur is the recent intermittent fasting (IF) research, particularly the trials with a control group on a conventional diet. For example, Soeters and colleagues compared two weeks of IF involving 20-hour fasting cycles with a conventional diet [13]. Despite the IF group’s consumption of an average of 101 g protein in a 4-hour window, there was no difference in preservation of lean mass and muscle protein between groups.

In another example, Stote and colleagues actually reported an improvement in body composition (including an increase in lean mass) after 8 weeks in the IF group consuming one meal per day, where roughly 86 g protein was ingested in a 4-hour window [14]. Interestingly, the conventional group consuming three meals spread throughout the day showed no significant body composition improvements.

Keep in mind that bioelectrical impedance (BIA) was used to determine body composition, so these outcomes should be viewed with caution. I’ve been highly critical of this study in the past, and I still am. Nevertheless, it cannot be completely written off and must be factored into the body of evidence against the idea of a magic protein dose limit.

Conclusion & application

Based on the available evidence, it’s false to assume that the body can only use a certain amount of protein per meal. Studies examining short-term effects have provided hints towards what might be an optimal protein dose for maximizing anabolism, but trials drawn out over longer periods haven’t supported this idea. So, is there a limit to how much protein per meal can be effectively used? Yes there is, but this limit is likely similar to the amount that’s maximally effective in an entire day. What’s the most protein that the body can effectively use in an entire day? The short answer is, a lot more than 20-30 g. The long answer is, it depends on several factors. In most cases it’s not too far from a gram per pound in drug-free trainees, given that adequate total calories are provided [8,9].

In terms of application, I’ve consistently observed the effectiveness of having approximately a quarter of your target bodyweight in both the pre- and post-exercise meal. Note: target bodyweight is a surrogate index of lean mass, and I use that to avoid making skewed calculations in cases where individuals are markedly over- or underweight. This dose surpasses the amounts seen to cause a maximal anabolic response but doesn’t impinge upon the rest of the day’s protein allotment, which can be distributed as desired. On days off from training, combine or split up your total protein allotment according to your personal preference and digestive tolerance. I realize that freedom and flexibility are uncommon terms in physique culture, but maybe it’s time for a paradigm shift.

In sum, view all information – especially gym folklore and short-term research – with caution. Don’t buy into the myth that protein won’t get used efficiently unless it’s dosed sparingly throughout the day. Hopefully, future research will definitively answer how different dosing schemes with various protein types affect relevant endpoints such as size and strength. In the mean time, feel free to eat the whole steak and drink the whole shake, and if you want to get the best bang for your buck, go for a quality protein blend such as Nitrean!

Written By Alan Aragon

Who to believe?!?!?!?! :aargh4:


In the mean time I'm just going to "eat the whole steak and drink the whole shake".