CEE vs Creatine Mono
- 09-09-2009, 06:13 PM
- 09-09-2009, 06:28 PM
Just read over this link today, never tried CEE personally as I seem to respond well to plain old CM.
If we are to believe the research that chemists from the American Marian University are about to publish in Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications, then the creatine analogue creatyl – better known as creatine ethyl ester – is a waste of time as a supplement. The compound can’t work. It converts spontaneously into creatinine, a waste product of creatine.
We still believe that creatine ethyl ester works
- 09-09-2009, 09:36 PM
WOW! So in essence it would be VERY beneficial to take creatine mono on non-workout days of after a workout and to take CEE right before a workout and/or right after to ensure the highest creatine concentration levels. This is very interesting indeed. I might try to cycle these two types in this manner now that I have drawn that conclusion...hmmmm it seems as if no one truely know if ester works or not...
09-09-2009, 11:10 PM
i am currently doing mono on my off days, mono and a N.O. pre work out and CEE post workout followed by a shake
09-10-2009, 01:03 AM
For all of you who are still convinced CEE and Kre-Alkalyn are superior to good old Creatine Monohydrate, please read along and take notes
______________________________ ____________________ ______________
Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid
Child R1 and Tallon MJ2
1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net
Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.
This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)
After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.
CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.
______________________________ ____________________ ______________
Kre-alkalyn? supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.
Tallon MJ1 and Child R2
1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. DrTallon@CR-Technologies.net
All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn? (KA) a ?Buffered? creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.
This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure?). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.
In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.
09-10-2009, 01:15 AM
You guys over think the creatine supplementation FAR too much. Jesus, your body gets a very noticeable boost from eating a steak with zero carbs. You don't need pre-intra-post creatine supplementation. Fact: You can load at 20gr a day for 5 days, you can take 5gr a day for 28 days, you can use sugar, or not, bottom line is your stores will be the same NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.
09-10-2009, 06:46 AM
I'm glad someone posted a study on this...and just to note, there are even more studies showing that CEE is not even comparable to CrM (creatine mono).
09-10-2009, 07:33 AM
It seems that mono is superior to CEE. However, no study is very conclusive. They NEED to do a muscle biopsy! The results here-in are inconclusive. However, that being said, I do agree that creatine supplementation is over analyzed and that CM is still the best way to go as there have been NUMEROUS studies that prove its effectiveness. Thanks for the replies everyone.
09-10-2009, 08:28 AM
I think creatine is great for replacing the creatine we lose during training. Other than that, I think taking these unnatural, unresearched products to absorb a little extra creatine is kind of a bad idea. Just type CEE into the search button and youll see some scary stuff.
09-10-2009, 10:45 AM
The burden is on the cee producers to prove their product (which isn't going to happen, as the studies above, and others you can find, show). Mono is unequivocally proven.
Again, why overthink things? People make something out of creatine that it's not, with elaborate split dosing schedules, fancy ingredients, and a lot of agonizing over bull**** minutea. Stop it. 5gr, once a day. That's it. If you want to add other ingredients, like arginine, or cordyceps, go for it, they may have other benefits. If you really need to know when the best time is to take your 5gr, it's pre-workout. A recent study showed that it may have extra benefit when taken at that time. But if you throw it in your post workout shake, or firat thing in the morning on an empty stomach with water, your stores will look exactly the same within 30 days of beginning supplementation.
09-10-2009, 06:51 PM
i have tried krealk and mono and didnt notice ANY difference. mono is the way to go, cheap and it works. i personally take 5g pre and 5g post and only on lift days.
09-10-2009, 08:51 PM
A lot of people love it preworkout. Personally, the bloat doesn't help me, so I prefer to take it at a diffrent time. It's really about replacing what you burn. The idea of benefitting from superhuman creatine absorption is hype.
09-10-2009, 08:58 PM
only doing 5pre and 5post on workout days doesnt give me the bloat and thats the reason i still take it. i absolutely hate when my midsection feels bloated but i love the strength i get from it.
09-10-2009, 08:59 PM
Both have their benefits. Depending on what you are looking for. Monohydrate is still the best creatine availible for packing on size. If you are looking for the endurance/strength benefits without the added water weight I would go with the ethyl ester. It is also less harsh on your kidneys.
While we are on the subject of creatines, I need some help guys. I am a woman, and I just bought a thing of CE2 high def by MRI. I was thinking of taking one before workout and one in the afternoon, instead of the 2 and 2 dose. I am looking for endurance and strength and recovery benefits of creatine, but don't want to get too bulky. Is that an effective dose? and is CE2 safe for women to take? I am also currently on a mitotropin cycle, so does that make a difference? Any input would be extremely helpful, thanks guys
09-10-2009, 09:10 PM
How much creatine is in one, as opposed to 2? Regardless, even 1-2 gr creatine a day is beneficial. The standard 5gr dose is a pretty random number, chosen because it's effective, but not too much. Trust me, 2gr is fine.
Creatine is absolutely safe for healthy women to take. If you want endurance, consider adding cordygen5 to your creatine, or using cre02 next time.
09-10-2009, 09:14 PM
thanks a lot. what is cordygen 5? and one pill is about 1.2 grams of creatine. I am a runner by nature, a distance runner actually. I just recently got into weight lifting seriously, so I'm very curious about a lot of these supplements. And the reason I don't want to put on a lot of muscle weight is because it will slow me down, and that is my only concern.
09-10-2009, 09:24 PM
Your planned dosing of 2 caps of creatine for 2.4gr a day is just fine. But realize it'll take a month or more for your bodies creatine stores to fully build up, though you'll feel results before then.
Also you might look into millennium sport citruvol. It has citrulline and cordyceps, both of which aid cardio stuff.
09-10-2009, 09:29 PM
i dont have the article i read to back it up but i remember reading that creatine will hinder your cardiovascular endurance, but fills your atp energy storage so its good for pre weight lifting. lorbaby69, why do you believe creatine mono is harsh on your kidneys? i personally believe anything other than CM is a waste of money, as i stated above i have tried kre-alk and mono and there was no difference at all. why pay twice as much for something that doesnt work twice as well?
09-10-2009, 09:49 PM
Hey Dyou. I don't like monohydrate because it makes me bloated and crampy. Also if you research it, longterm use of monohydrate can cause damage to the kidneys. I have heard that it is beneficial for endurance activities, but also that it can hinder your cardiovascular abilities, so I am unsure what to believe.
09-10-2009, 10:05 PM
a simple way to remedy this would be to supplement ubiquinol coq10.
coq10 dramatically increases the rate at which creatinine is filtered out of the body, and protects your kidneys.
For me, the action IS the juice.
09-10-2009, 10:10 PM
oh and from my experience if you do get bloated from CM then back off the amount your taking. i absolutely hate the bloat but found my sweet spot where i get the gains with no bloat
09-10-2009, 11:21 PM
09-11-2009, 12:16 PM
09-11-2009, 03:29 PM
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