Insulin spike PWO necessary?

hl80

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I keep hearing that it's not necessary. From what I've read, spiking insulin has been a standard practice postworkout to maintain an anabolic state, as insulin is the most powerful anabolic hormone, and it sets the stage for quicker glycogen replenishment. Complete postworkout supps like Torrent and Dark Matter also seem to support this.

What do you think? Any truth to the high GI carbs/insulin spike PWO not being necessary?
 
jsheely

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I know it helps suppress cortisol levels post wo. To save money I just drink a shake with milk post wo because of all the sugar in it.
 

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Yes exactly, cortisol = catabolic hormone, so you're maintaining an anabolic state.

Lactose (milk carbs/sugar) isn't a terrible choice unless you're lactose intolerant, which you may be if you're not of Northern European descent. You probably also get some with your whey unless it's pure isolate. And some whey products like ON's contain enzymes (lactase) to help. Though malto/dextrose/sucrose/honey would be better. I get NOW's Carbo Gain (malto) for $23 for 12 lbs, pretty cheap.
 
JW32Hoops

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You could add something like Dextrose (which is super cheap) to your PWO shake, but I wouldn't say it's 100% necessary.
 
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I've gone back and forth on this a lot......Im going to say no. I've had a lot of success using low-GI carbs post workout. Dextrose and Malto give me stomach issues anyways. WMS works great for me because of simplicity and 9 times out of 10 I am not hungry post workout.

WMS attracted me bc of it's high molecular weight and ability to help shuttle goodies without insulin being needed.

Here's my advice try one for 4 weeks and chart gains and then try the other for 4 weeks. See which works better for you.
 
bpmartyr

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I am in the no camp.

Complex carbs for me after workout thank you. Blended oats, protein and a banana.
 
mooch2321

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1 iload
2 scoops karbolyn
6 scoops xtend
post workout perfection....im with distilled water on this one
 
matthias7

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Hey at last - good company. Low GI forever except I've a weakness for full cream icecream (I can sink a 1/2 litre tub pretty easily).

I think the idea of trying the spike and charting is a very good one. Hi GI carb is cheap.
 
JM0

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I am in the no camp.

Complex carbs for me after workout thank you. Blended oats, protein and a banana.
I'm with you, man. I jumped on the WMS bandwagon a while ago, but I didn't notice any difference in gains.

I'm going back to ground-up oats in my post-workout shake.
 
EasyEJL

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necessary no, possibly slightly beneficial - but moreso only if everything else is on target too. Otherwise you are about as likely to add more fat than muscle
 
bigswole30

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No, it is not neccessary. Beneficial for some yes...,However I have found I gain just as much lean muscle with protein and fats PWO as I do with Carbs.
 

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You'll get answers from both camps, those who avoid/keep carbohydrates low post workout and those who 'go for the spike'.

I personally go for an insulin spike post workout, since the rest of my meals/diet is very low GL/GI, to me it's the best time to spike insulin if you're ever going to do it.
 
lozgod

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There are pros and cons to both. Insulin and GH won't share the same stage and when you do strenuous exercise (aerobic or anaerobic) the body releases GH. One of the few times of the day it will other than REM sleep. You can release insulin at will. By consuming carbs PWO you kill your GH release. Both hormones are anabolic. The benefit of GH vs insulin is insulin makes fat and GH burns fat.

As for me I always did carbs PWO, but this time I am going to go without.

Also if you are "on" cortisol should not be a concern. You are anabolic as a result of the hormones.
 

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I seriously suspect any naturally created insulin response due to hi gi carbs PWO wouldnt be a significant enough response to create that much of an anabolic environment, meaning it wouldnt foster significant ,if any, added muscle growth. . Exogenous insulin = yes , this IMO - no.
 
lozgod

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I seriously suspect any naturally created insulin response due to hi gi carbs PWO wouldnt be a significant enough response to create that much of an anabolic environment, meaning it wouldnt foster significant ,if any, added muscle growth. . Exogenous insulin = yes , this IMO - no.
I have read this as a newly founded opinion by quite a few, but there are some studies that show otherwise. Aminos are shuttled in to the muscle tissue at an increased rate vs. PWO protein without a high GI carb.

My concern is moreso, no matter how insignificant, you are laying fat down each time you do this.
 
bpmartyr

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Fat bad, muscle gooood!
 
msucurt

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I used to simply take

2scoops MPI
2 tbsp natty pb
10g leucine

Nothing wrong with that. Im done with all the sugas PWO...especially since im trying to cut and its summer. Until i see otherwise, im sticking with this protocol.
 
WilteredFire

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Guys if I can just throw a wrench into the works here, you may want to check out this article:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/laywindownon.pdf

Its an indepth study on post workout nutrition but in laymans terms. You can read the indepth one on their site somewhere too, I found this quite helpful in deciding what to do and what not to do post workout. Been following it best I can for just under 2 years now.

See if this can help shed some light into the matter :)
 
EasyEJL

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without references, that pdf is pointless. anyone can write whatever they want to write, if there aren't actual studies backing it up that you can look at to see where the study has flaws, its just an opinion.
 
dg806

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I've seen studies that show low gi carbs work just as well as high gi carbs to spike insulin. Like DS said, try it both ways and see what works for you the best.
 
Distilled Water

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I've seen studies that show low gi carbs work just as well as high gi carbs to spike insulin. Like DW said, try it both ways and see what works for you the best.
Fix'd it for ya :thumbsup:

Yea everyone is so different. My buddy from HS could literally eat a cup of sugar and grow while another who can't even look at carbs with out gaining mid-section BF (I think he's diabetic but wont get tested)
 
VolcomX311

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I used to be vehemently YES, but as far as personal experience on going the route of Simple Carbs/Leucine/Protein PW for months on end and then a season of Ezekiel Natty PB & Sugar Free Jelly/Protein PW route. The difference was negligible. I'm going with I still somehow want to believe that it's a YES deep down, because of all the science I've read on it, but from my personal experience, I say NO, not so much.
 
celc5

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I seriously suspect any naturally created insulin response due to hi gi carbs PWO wouldnt be a significant enough response to create that much of an anabolic environment, meaning it wouldnt foster significant ,if any, added muscle growth. . Exogenous insulin = yes , this IMO - no.
Agreed with this post. I was gonna say the same thing... not sure if that makes you look bad though :laugh:

I've seen plenty of theories that suggest glycogen levels are restored just as easily spreading out carbs throughout the day, regardless of hi vs. low GI. I'm not convinced that a post workout heavy carb load does anything whatsoever vs. a diet where total carbs were spread through the day.
 

hl80

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Agreed with this post. I was gonna say the same thing... not sure if that makes you look bad though :laugh:

I've seen plenty of theories that suggest glycogen levels are restored just as easily spreading out carbs throughout the day, regardless of hi vs. low GI. I'm not convinced that a post workout heavy carb load does anything whatsoever vs. a diet where total carbs were spread through the day.
Interesting. I just talked to a colleague who has a lot of experience in the area (physiology professor), and he said the same thing: that he wasn't convinced that heavy postworkout carb intake made a big difference.

I've read a pretty credible book on the topic, Nutrient Timing (you can find from Google Books), which really promotes the insulin spike at a 3-4:1 carb-protein ratio with high-GI carbs postworkout.

So the topic is debatable. I guess just go with what works best for you. I guess drinking tons of sugar postworkout at least tastes good. :)
 
nunes

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my body works very well with a1:1 carbs , protein ratio pwo, I really notice a big difference, but well that's me , I don't know if it's gonna work with everyone else
 

hl80

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my body works very well with a1:1 carbs , protein ratio pwo, I really notice a big difference, but well that's me , I don't know if it's gonna work with everyone else
Wow that's pretty low. Have you ever tired 2-4:1? 3-4:1 is from what I've read the "optimal" digestion ratio for resistance training, but I guess it depends a lot on your style of training + body type.
 
VolcomX311

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Interesting. I just talked to a colleague who has a lot of experience in the area (physiology professor), and he said the same thing: that he wasn't convinced that heavy postworkout carb intake made a big difference.

I've read a pretty credible book on the topic, Nutrient Timing (you can find from Google Books), which really promotes the insulin spike at a 3-4:1 carb-protein ratio with high-GI carbs postworkout.

So the topic is debatable. I guess just go with what works best for you. I guess drinking tons of sugar postworkout at least tastes good. :)
I've read that same book (I liked it) and I've also had discussions with my Exercise Physiology/Strength & Conditioning Professor (who does independent studies for supplement companies and has published studies on PW leucine/maltodextrine; examined via muscle biopsies & MRI's to analyze muscle cross sections....).

I still think there is a benefit to the post workout carb/protein/leucine load... even in nursing, which have no bodybuilding agenda's, recognize the 1 hour window of greater insulin sensitivity post anaerobic training, which you can exploit.

However, from my anecdotal & subjective experience as someone who was once PASSIONATE about the post workout window and never skipped a beat with taking down a 50g protein, 75g carb shake to gargle down a mouthful of bulk NP Leucine powder administered with a dirty spoon, DAILY. I did not experience any significant benefits.

I would recommend you try it and see how well you respond.

There is so much room for mediating variables in this arena, not only in proper administration/execution, but physiological & biochemical variances. This is probably why supplements are so often Hit & Miss and at such opposing spectrums from one person to another.

Some people felt PRIME by USPLabs was a sham because it didn't work for them. PRIME worked insanely well for me. I love RPM, yet some people don't respond to it, and it's a STIMULANT, which is traditionally VERY consistent from person to person.

I'm not a fan of broscientists who try something and due to their failed personal experience, deem an ideal (or supplement) null & void.

I've probably gone through tons of protein powder, but not once in my life have I ever “experienced” any “signifcanlty” perceivable benefits, in size, strength or anything at all, but it's just a concept that you know is beneficial.

This PW carb window could very well be the same thing. It's doing SOMETHING good, but not in a significant enough manner to say, “yes this works” or “100% no it doesn't.”

Post workout insulin sensitivity is a natural, bodily process, endogenous processes are hardly ever mind blowing and almost always pale in comparison to exogenous stimulated processes (ie. BB supps) which seem to be the unrealistic standard. I'm guilty of it as well, so I'm not preaching from a 12 foot horse or anything.
 
celc5

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Fellas, Nutrient Timing is not a credible source. IIRC that's a promo ad from GNC for a postworkout carb drink from about 6 or 8 yeas ago. Is Ed Byrd's NO2 book credible? See my point
 

hl80

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I've read that same book (I liked it) and I've also had discussions with my Exercise Physiology/Strength & Conditioning Professor (who does independent studies for supplement companies and has published studies on PW leucine/maltodextrine; examined via muscle biopsies & MRI's to analyze muscle cross sections....).

I still think there is a benefit to the post workout carb/protein/leucine load... even in nursing, which have no bodybuilding agenda's, recognize the 1 hour window of greater insulin sensitivity post anaerobic training, which you can exploit.

However, from my anecdotal & subjective experience as someone who was once PASSIONATE about the post workout window and never skipped a beat with taking down a 50g protein, 75g carb shake to gargle down a mouthful of bulk NP Leucine powder administered with a dirty spoon, DAILY. I did not experience any significant benefits.

I would recommend you try it and see how well you respond.

There is so much room for mediating variables in this arena, not only in proper administration/execution, but physiological & biochemical variances. This is probably why supplements are so often Hit & Miss and at such opposing spectrums from one person to another.

Some people felt PRIME by USPLabs was a sham because it didn't work for them. PRIME worked insanely well for me. I love RPM, yet some people don't respond to it, and it's a STIMULANT, which is traditionally VERY consistent from person to person.

I'm not a fan of broscientists who try something and due to their failed personal experience, deem an ideal (or supplement) null & void.

I've probably gone through tons of protein powder, but not once in my life have I ever “experienced” any “signifcanlty” perceivable benefits, in size, strength or anything at all, but it's just a concept that you know is beneficial.

This PW carb window could very well be the same thing. It's doing SOMETHING good, but not in a significant enough manner to say, “yes this works” or “100% no it doesn't.”

Post workout insulin sensitivity is a natural, bodily process, endogenous processes are hardly ever mind blowing and almost always pale in comparison to exogenous stimulated processes (ie. BB supps) which seem to be the unrealistic standard. I'm guilty of it as well, so I'm not preaching from a 12 foot horse or anything.
Good post, thanks. Could you recommend any similar books to Nutrient Timing?

When talking to the professor, he actually said the growth hormone you naturally secrete while sleeping is actually of more benefit than an insulin spike postworkout.
 

hl80

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Fellas, Nutrient Timing is not a credible source. IIRC that's a promo ad from GNC for a postworkout carb drink from about 6 or 8 yeas ago. Is Ed Byrd's NO2 book credible? See my point
Really? Darn, I picked up the most credible looking book I could find at Borders in that area. The authors seem really qualified and cite their sources in a really detailed bibliography. Which book(s) would you recommend instead?
 
nunes

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Wow that's pretty low. Have you ever tired 2-4:1? 3-4:1 is from what I've read the "optimal" digestion ratio for resistance training, but I guess it depends a lot on your style of training + body type.
do you think that 30 gr of protein with 30 grs of carbs its low after workout?
 
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Fellas, Nutrient Timing is not a credible source. IIRC that's a promo ad from GNC for a postworkout carb drink from about 6 or 8 yeas ago. Is Ed Byrd's NO2 book credible? See my point
I'm not really trying to defend the PW argument (I stopped choking down a mouthful of leucine powder with my protein shake in the parking lot of the gym years ago). However, to play devils advocate:

Do we agree that the body shifts into a catabolic state as a result of intense resistance training?

If yes, then some immediate carbs/proitein can reverse that effect, so there's a pro.

Do we agree that intense resistance training depletes glycogen and as a result requires replenishment?

Yeah... but I don't know if you really need to pull it all in at once. I think this can be achieved just fine eating throughout the day, so this is a bit ambiguous.

However, your muscles are particularly primed for sugar intake due to the heightened insulin sensitivity post workout, so I don't think loading carbs PW is a complete waste.

Furthermore, it is well known that the ingestion of l-leucine further increases insulin release, therefore, augmenting and by working in conjunction with the previous paragraph.

Again, I don't practice the PW simple sugar load anymore, at least not intentionally. I practiced it RELIGIOUSLY for probably 6 months, but found that the results did not justify the effort.

Bulk Leucine tasts like a mouthful of table salt and washing that down with a warm protein shake is not the bizz.

I've been academically convinced on many occasions as to why I should practice this again, but for me, based on my personal experience, where I was a PW Nazi, it just doesn't seem worth it. However, I would recommend trying it.
 

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do you think that 30 gr of protein with 30 grs of carbs its low after workout?
From what I've gathered, many people who resistance train take 60-80g carbs postworkout with around 25g protein.
 

Future

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I'm not really trying to defend the PW argument (I stopped choking down a mouthful of leucine powder with my protein shake in the parking lot of the gym years ago). However, to play devils advocate:

Do we agree that the body shifts into a catabolic state as a result of intense resistance training?

If yes, then some immediate carbs/proitein can reverse that effect, so there's a pro.

Do we agree that intense resistance training depletes glycogen and as a result requires replenishment?

Yeah... but I don't know if you really need to pull it all in at once. I think this can be achieved just fine eating throughout the day, so this is a bit ambiguous.

However, your muscles are particularly primed for sugar intake due to the heightened insulin sensitivity post workout, so I don't think loading carbs PW is a complete waste.

Furthermore, it is well known that the ingestion of l-leucine further increases insulin release, therefore, augmenting and by working in conjunction with the previous paragraph.

Again, I don't practice the PW simple sugar load anymore, at least not intentionally. I practiced it RELIGIOUSLY for probably 6 months, but found that the results did not justify the effort.

Bulk Leucine tasts like a mouthful of table salt and washing that down with a warm protein shake is not the bizz.

I've been academically convinced on many occasions as to why I should practice this again, but for me, based on my personal experience, where I was a PW Nazi, it just doesn't seem worth it. However, I would recommend trying it.
Very good post.

Personally, I do have a fair amount of carbs and protein post workout. It DOES help me. At age of 36 and being in the gym since I was 11 I have tried many approached. PWO nutrition is vital. I dont care if you have a steak and yam but I think most will benefit from carbs/proteins to help speed recovery. That window of the insulin spike helps get protein shuttled into the muscle as well. Great time to take your creatine as well.

Nutrient timing is NOT a source. It's a nutritional understanding of your body chemistry. Sourced are Layne Norton, Jose Antonio, Robbie Durand and Carlon Colker to name a few. Not to mention the experiential data from many that benefit from this timed eating. I don't think Leucine is a fair example of not getting gains from pwo nutrition. It's pretty overrated. I would suggest a quality protein and waxy carb source.
 

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do you think that 30 gr of protein with 30 grs of carbs its low after workout?
Depends on your diet and the training you did prior. Its a fair amount to start with and adjust accordingly.
 
nunes

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From what I've gathered, many people who resistance train take 60-80g carbs postworkout with around 25g protein.
interesting, but as you said this is a discussion area where the individual counts, I already saw studies where people only use protein with almost the same benefit as protein + carbs
 
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I stopped choking down a mouthful of leucine powder with my protein shake in the parking lot of the gym years ago).

Furthermore, it is well known that the ingestion of l-leucine further increases insulin release, therefore, augmenting and by working in conjunction with the previous paragraph.

Bulk Leucine tasts like a mouthful of table salt and washing that down with a warm protein shake is not the bizz.

I've been academically convinced on many occasions as to why I should practice this again, but for me, based on my personal experience, where I was a PW Nazi, it just doesn't seem worth it. However, I would recommend trying it.
There was just a study oin MD that said leucine+protein is not more benifical that reg. whey.....However taking them seperate is. I found this too when I was dieting like 3 years ago with glutamine.

I was taking 5gr w/meals for the longest time then read a study blah blah blah. So I switched to taking it 10-15min before my meals. I held onto a lot more muscle. I can not say for certine it was because of the glutamine but it's worth a shot...I'd imagine Leucine may be the same.

I need to start doing the glutamine thing again

Sorry fella's debate proceed..............................
 
bezoe

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I havent used protein powder in about 2 months. Used to down a shake before the weights hit the floor. Lately I just get some low GI carbs and some lean animal meat PWO. Haven't noticed a difference, personally.

I also read a study saying the post workout insulin sensitivity window was much longer than an hour. I'm pretty sure it was a credible source too.
 
thesinner

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interesting, but as you said this is a discussion area where the individual counts, I already saw studies where people only use protein with almost the same benefit as protein + carbs
Post workout carbs started back in the times of Bill Weider.

If you want to step on the scale, and watch that little needle go more to the right, post workout carbs are the way to go.

The fact of the matter is the muscle is rebuilding for days after you've lifted. That's a pretty big time slot to be worrying so much about the first small bit of it, don't ya think?
 

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I think you can do either and it wont really make a difference.Wat it really boils down to is overall nutrition.Although it is a very important meal i think that if your nutrtion is spot on the rest of the day you wont see much difference between the two. Most people raise their cortisol levels too much worrying about it so any gains they did make in their workout are shot becuz their too freakin worried about whether or not to use fast or slow carbs.Personally i like optimum whey a bananna, honey and glutamine.Cant get any simpler or cheaper.
 
suncloud

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i really enjoy my postworkout shake. i'm on the fence if carbs are "helpful to drive the protein into the muscles". i think preworkout nutrition is a much easier argument, as i get the protein to stave off catabolism, as well as the quick carbs 10 minutes before the gym for the added energy. with me, this translates to roughly 10-15% more strength on my sets. postworkout, i think carbs are used mainly to help keep your calorie intake up more than anything else.

again though, i really don't know the studies on postworkout very well, rather the anecdotal information - what we call "broscience". it does make for a very nice cheat meal though, which keeps my diet from getting monotonous.
 
TheDarkHalf

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My PWO looks like the following:

50g Maltodextrin
1 cup Oats
1 scoop whey
1 scoop casein
2 tbsp powerbutter

Yields - 75 pro/100 cho/ 15g fat

typically i'll throw in another 50 carbs from another source of my choice - yogart, whole wheat crackers, more oats, sweet potatoes, etc. I always change it up.

I just could never make the determination to whether I should use high GI or low GI so I figured what the hell i'll use both. Same thing goes with protein. I figure mixing both high gi/low gi and quick/slow digestion protein I get the best of both worlds.
 
bezoe

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Most people raise their cortisol levels too much worrying about it so any gains they did make in their workout are shot becuz their too freakin worried about whether or not to use fast or slow carbs.
Hahahaha TRUE!
 
EasyEJL

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Post workout carbs started back in the times of Bill Weider.
and from the one study that showed greater retained nitrogen in the CHO+PRO group than PRO only group. The thing that everyone tends to ignore is that the study was done with guys who weren't normal resistance training people (although physically active) and also that the workouts were all fasted. Other later studies that weren't fasted didn't show significant or conclusive differences either way.

now if you work out fasted first thing in the morning, there is definitely evidence to support 2:1 carb:pro with it being fast absorption carbs.
 
thesinner

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and from the one study that showed greater retained nitrogen in the CHO+PRO group than PRO only group. The thing that everyone tends to ignore is that the study was done with guys who weren't normal resistance training people (although physically active) and also that the workouts were all fasted. Other later studies that weren't fasted didn't show significant or conclusive differences either way.

now if you work out fasted first thing in the morning, there is definitely evidence to support 2:1 carb:pro with it being fast absorption carbs.
You've reminded me of a few threads on this topic.

And you are 110% correct about those fasted state studies. If you haven't eaten anything for hours, quick carbs after your workout is excellent - because you have no energy!!

OK, found 'em. Read, understand, and spread the word:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutrition-health/56805-waxy-maize-starch-2.html
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/14038-how-much-dextrose.html

(For the newbies: Cosmo Kramer = "Bobo")
 

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